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Hix
Animal Mother
Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 299
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: Basilides]
#6590863 - 02/20/07 07:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: Thou protesteth too much. Most of the residents of Darfur (including those subjected to ethnic cleansing) believe in God.
If god exists, he is a horrible scumbag. They can believe what they want, it's not going to change the fact that they're bound to a painful live of hunger and death. Being cursed as a descendant of the western infection, I see the damage that the religion has caused to the world. If god really created the Earth, his mission most certainly wasn't for it to prosper, but for us to destroy it limb from limb, using our unlimited ignorance as the powerful weapon it is.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
vigilant_mind said: And what evidence do you gentlemen base your beliefs (or lack of) on?
Originally, based on cumulative trips. Further reinforced by strange synchronicities in my life, and the feeling like I'm being guided along by a higher power.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Silversoul said: ...and the feeling like I'm being guided along by a higher power.
Yourself?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Does God exist?
does the hypothesis "god exists" make any definite predictions? if it does not, it has no predictive value, nor can it be tested. a theory that makes no definite predictions and cannot be falsified has no value. if this hypothesis does have predictive value, it is falsifiable and we should be able to test it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: wilshire]
#6590945 - 02/20/07 07:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: a theory that makes no definite predictions and cannot be falsified has no value.
What constitutes value?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Sinbad said: The God spoken about in the bible. Come on fireworks, keep up with reality man.
But which g*d spoken about in the bible?
The evil one!
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: ...and the feeling like I'm being guided along by a higher power.
Yourself?
In a sense, yes, as I believe that we are all manifestations of God. But it would be my "higher self," or what some mystical systems refer to as one's "Holy Guardian Angel." Some things in my life have led me to believe that either God is looking out for me, or I have supernatural abilities, or possibly both. If I do have supernatural abilities, I have very limited control over them, so I consider it a simpler explanation to chalk it up to the divine.
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: wilshire]
#6591022 - 02/20/07 08:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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"God exists" is a valuable hypothesis that should be investigated and scrutinized just like all other realms of inquiry are.
It should not be taboo to criticize or question the existence of God.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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What constitutes value?
in this case, the ability to describe reality.
is the god hypothesis falsifiable? what events or conditions could disprove the existence of god?
if not, there is no grounds for discussing if god exists, or, incidentally. believing so.
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
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I believe that wilshire is referring to the scientific view of value.
Something has value insofar as it can be disproved by empirical investigation.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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"God exists" is a valuable hypothesis that should be investigated and scrutinized just like all other realms of inquiry are.
is it though? can it be tested? can a believer please describe what, if anything, could disprove god's existence if it came to pass?
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: wilshire]
#6591098 - 02/20/07 08:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: Does God exist?
does the hypothesis "god exists" make any definite predictions? if it does not, it has no predictive value, nor can it be tested. a theory that makes no definite predictions and cannot be falsified has no value. if this hypothesis does have predictive value, it is falsifiable and we should be able to test it.
Sure, but God is not a hypothesis which can be circumscribed by the background theory which directs you how to deal with hypotheses. God, who is generally understood as supreme in every way (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal, omnibenevalent...) is beyond the domain of an theory which might try to form hypotheses about him. Consequently, even if your process concludes "the god hypothesis" has no value, it has said nothing about God who is beyond the grasp of your theory. You have only proved that it is not valuable to consider God's existence as hypothetical.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: Hix]
#6591104 - 02/20/07 08:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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"They can believe what they want".. it is interesting to note that those who cite extreme examples of suffering to bolster the assumption that this evidences a Godless world have themselves little idea of what such people have gone through, what assists them in relieving that suffering, or even the slightest knowledge of their culture for that matter. Even a Christian literalist can successfully counter such an ancient presumption with the doctrines of free will and post-mortem punishment.
Last but not least, you have picked the most incidental, easily refuted basis to reject all that is potentially metaphysical. I have seen people tout endlessly about the simple lack of evidence regarding God whilst still maintaining some conventional wisdom about suffering with transcendental existentialism or even indeterminism, free reign/will etc as undisputed conditions that are compatible with spiritual philosophies, although merely rejected out of scientific materialism.
Intently myopic rationale from a predominantly middle to upper class lifestyle and a so-called righteous concern for all those poor Africans - Evil in the World™ is the atheistic soccer mom's philosophical cop out.
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: Basilides]
#6591134 - 02/20/07 08:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Evil in the World™ is the atheistic soccer mom's philosophical cop out.
Said like a true believer.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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God, who is generally understood as supreme in every way (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal, omnibenevalent...) is beyond the domain of an theory which might try to form hypotheses about him.
how so? specifically. either the existence of god has predictive value, can be tested, and is therefore a useful and valid theory, or is not.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Evil in the World™ is the atheistic soccer mom's philosophical cop out.
Said like a true believer.
You know, the argument would make some sense if the majority of those suffering from genocide and famine hated God with a passion.
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: wilshire]
#6591163 - 02/20/07 08:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just because an idea does not contain any scientific value does not automatically render the idea as dispensable and useless.
Obviously, if the idea of God wasn't important then we wouldn't have so much bloodshed over it.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does God exist? [Re: Basilides]
#6591183 - 02/20/07 08:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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What those in suffering feel about God has absolutely nothing to do with the argument.
If God was Omnibenevolent then God would not allow suffering. God allows suffering in this world. Therefore, God is not Omnibenevolent.
There is an entire field of theology dedicated to fixing this problem. (Theodicy)
Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/20/07 08:40 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: If God was Omnibenevolent then God would not allow suffering. God allows suffering in this world. Therefore, God is not Omnibenevolent.
For that argument to work, God would also have to be omnipotent.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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God is almost always considered omnipotent, so I left that out.
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