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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come.
    #6583217 - 02/18/07 09:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

You are given this warning and are also told that God is merciful. His mercy is shown in the fact that Jesus came and saved His people from their sin. You have heard the warnings yet you do not repent from wickedness. You cannot see yourself as a sinner, since your carnal mind can not comprehend itself to be wicked, and therefore can not see the need for salvation. You are secure in your own abilities in the spiritual realm, not realizing that your best spiritual works are a stench outside of Christ's perfect righteousness. You scoff when the Word declares you are spiritually dead and need to be born again. Part of your blindness is the fact you can't see your blindness. Christ came to seek are save the lost. Are you lost? If not you will not be sought or saved. Are you thirsting for righteousness? Only the thirsty are given the living waters. Are you heavy laden with sin? Only the laden are relieved. Have you come with nothing? Come with nothing and eat without price. Grace is sweet only for those in need of it. Oh how I hope that the Spirit might break you and show you sin and righteousness and judgment. Only then can the gospel shine into your heart.

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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583222 - 02/18/07 09:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

dont you think that obedience by fear isnt very wholesome?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583250 - 02/18/07 09:36 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You need not fear Hell. From your words I see that you already inhabit it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583255 - 02/18/07 09:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What will be your excuse when your ignorance consumes you and destroys you from the inside?


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6583278 - 02/18/07 09:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

idk dude ignorance is bliss sometimes.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: daytripper23]
    #6583296 - 02/18/07 09:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
idk dude ignorance is bliss sometimes.



In the short term, yes. In the long run, it will destroy you.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583347 - 02/18/07 10:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

BTW fivepointer, haven't you espoused the doctrine of predestination before? Why should I need an excuse when my ultimate fate is already predistined?


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OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583762 - 02/19/07 01:14 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Not enough evidence.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583940 - 02/19/07 02:22 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Excuse for what?

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.



He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sakes.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6583980 - 02/19/07 02:43 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Worship of God out of fear of hell is neither sincere nor genuine love for God

I disagree largely with your theological stance


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: daytripper23]
    #6584072 - 02/19/07 03:42 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6584076 - 02/19/07 03:47 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Dude I really feel sorry for you, it must suck to live in fear...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6584380 - 02/19/07 06:21 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Many on this board have made statements that I worship God out of fear of hell. This is a misconception. The gospel is good news, which declares mercy and forgiveness. The law with its demands and punishments can never again accuse a believer. Every sin, past, present, and future has been put away in Christ's blood forever. We are unconditionally loved and reconciled, we serve/worship out of thanksgiving, not out of fear. Godly fear is a reverential fear, an awe inspired fear, not a fear of punishment.

The Lake of Fire gets hotter and hotter with every passing sin. How long shall you ignore the warnings that God has given? The law is your accuser, it has no mercy. Turn and believe the gospel. But you say, “I can’t turn”. Well then ask that you may be given the ability to turn. You say, “I can’t believe”, ask that you might be given belief. Repent and believe the gospel and you shall be saved!

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6584391 - 02/19/07 06:30 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either does'nt exist, is'nt how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.


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Edited by Sinbad (02/19/07 06:52 AM)

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Offlineflower_child
Dawson
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Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 677
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6584443 - 02/19/07 07:18 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

Click the lake of fire.


--------------------
Today while walking up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd stay away

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
    #6584483 - 02/19/07 07:44 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have sought out Christ and I have seen that he is a Jedi, that he is just some guy living in California, and he told me he wasn't what I thought he was... and that really, nothing is happening or has happened to me that would give me any "grace" or anything of that sort.

To most Christians it seems praying is enough, well I have prayed, and even considered it rational (and still may) but I do not have Christ-consciousness now, nor do I have grace, I just have the merits of my meditations and my yoga and my diet which make me happy, but I don't have some sort of kindling of holy spirit.

Where is it fivepointer? How can you be a believer if you don't belive? If he is LORD it should be made evident enough for every single person that turns open perhaps even one page of the Bible, or says simply even one prayer, thinking it a sound idea to believe in a savior.

And it is a sound idea, but only if it is true.

I am awaiting confirmation of the reality of Jesus Christ, but without that I have to rely on his messengers and I just don't seem to believe them honestly.
[yes like you said, i have prayed to even be turned toward Christianity if it is true, and allowed to believe]

I do not believe that even Hitler deserves an eternity in hell, let alone a Buddhist monk who has attained nirvana, a little Muslim child who was poisoned against the "true" way, and all other sorts of things.

If the writers of the Bible think God just, I find it hard to fathom. If God is just then all ration and reason denote universal salvation and universal forgiveness for sins, with or without atonement.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (02/19/07 07:48 AM)

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Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
    #6584684 - 02/19/07 09:49 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

My excuse will be that I didnt believe in any of it. I know that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, but Im sure if the shit hits the fan and it turns out God does exist, that he/she/it will show his/her/its glorious compassion and install me on a cloud alongside the rest of the good guys.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6584700 - 02/19/07 09:54 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"your best spiritual works are a stench outside..." of Love and Compassion !


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6584784 - 02/19/07 10:32 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many on this board have made statements that I worship God out of fear of hell. This is a misconception. The gospel is good news, which declares mercy and forgiveness. The law with its demands and punishments can never again accuse a believer. Every sin, past, present, and future has been put away in Christ's blood forever. We are unconditionally loved and reconciled, we serve/worship out of thanksgiving, not out of fear. Godly fear is a reverential fear, an awe inspired fear, not a fear of punishment.

The Lake of Fire gets hotter and hotter with every passing sin. How long shall you ignore the warnings that God has given? The law is your accuser, it has no mercy. Turn and believe the gospel. But you say, “I can’t turn”. Well then ask that you may be given the ability to turn. You say, “I can’t believe”, ask that you might be given belief. Repent and believe the gospel and you shall be saved!




Dude, I don't believe in any gospel. And becoming one with God is total libertion, no fear there, not even "reverential fear" whatever that means to you...
"Love is the law, love under will"


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Edited by MushroomTrip (02/19/07 11:47 AM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6584839 - 02/19/07 11:00 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I would blame people like you.

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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
    #6584843 - 02/19/07 11:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
I have sought out Christ and I have seen that he is a Jedi, that he is just some guy living in California, and he told me he wasn't what I thought he was... and that really, nothing is happening or has happened to me that would give me any "grace" or anything of that sort.

To most Christians it seems praying is enough, well I have prayed, and even considered it rational (and still may) but I do not have Christ-consciousness now, nor do I have grace, I just have the merits of my meditations and my yoga and my diet which make me happy, but I don't have some sort of kindling of holy spirit.

Where is it fivepointer? How can you be a believer if you don't belive? If he is LORD it should be made evident enough for every single person that turns open perhaps even one page of the Bible, or says simply even one prayer, thinking it a sound idea to believe in a savior.

And it is a sound idea, but only if it is true.

I am awaiting confirmation of the reality of Jesus Christ, but without that I have to rely on his messengers and I just don't seem to believe them honestly.
[yes like you said, i have prayed to even be turned toward Christianity if it is true, and allowed to believe]

I do not believe that even Hitler deserves an eternity in hell, let alone a Buddhist monk who has attained nirvana, a little Muslim child who was poisoned against the "true" way, and all other sorts of things.

If the writers of the Bible think God just, I find it hard to fathom. If God is just then all ration and reason denote universal salvation and universal forgiveness for sins, with or without atonement.




You are awaiting confirmation. How does one know they are in Christ? First and foremost they believe the gospel. Not just any gospel, but the one and only gospel. Many "gospels" and "christs" abound today. But which one is true? How can you know? Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Scripture says every believer is given the Holy Spirit, and they have witness in themselves they are children of God.

You have notions about who you think God is, and can not reconcile many doctrines in your mind. Even though you can not understand a particular doctrine at this time, just leave it open. Don't harden yourself against the truth. If and when God is pleased to open these things, then you will understand. Scripture says all who truly seek Him shall find Him. Most seek on their own terms, not God's terms. Suffer not the little children to come to Him, which means come without preconceptions, but as a child. Every aspect of salvation must be given from above, this includes trust, faith, the new heart, repentance, ect.. The friend who wants to borrow three loaves at midnight is only answered because of his importunity (which means shameless persistence). This is how salvation is also.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
unfazed
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585017 - 02/19/07 12:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.

This thread you have started is the reason so many people flee from Christianity. You (and many other Evangelicals) blatantly accuse strangers of being hell bound sinners, yet you provide no evidence to support your statements let alone your doctrine as a whole. You preach love and grace yet you practice exclusion and intolerance. While you may feel you're "doing God's will," you're nothing more than the antithesis of Christ. Where's the love?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585062 - 02/19/07 12:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'll take my punishment like a man.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6585115 - 02/19/07 12:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.

This thread you have started is the reason so many people flee from Christianity. You (and many other Evangelicals) blatantly accuse strangers of being hell bound sinners, yet you provide no evidence to support your statements let alone your doctrine as a whole. You preach love and grace yet you practice exclusion and intolerance. While you may feel you're "doing God's will," you're nothing more than the antithesis of Christ. Where's the love?




Good point.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585140 - 02/19/07 12:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Judeo-Christians have been warning people of an immediately impending apocalypse for over 2,000 years. By now, the probability that it will happen tomorrow is so small that I can say "Fuck Jesus!" without a worry in my little heart.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlineflower_child
Dawson
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Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 677
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Ravus]
    #6585161 - 02/19/07 12:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Did you happen to look at that website I linked to, fivepointer?

You really should take a look at it. It's really quite interesting.


--------------------
Today while walking up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd stay away

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585191 - 02/19/07 01:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment.

Only the white mans Christian Bible states this as far as I know and there is no proofs anywhere that it is the word of God anymore than any other organized religion has a corner on the "word of God".

I myself from personal experience feel that this particular Christian myth is false and based in hatred and fear.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6585713 - 02/19/07 03:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.





I was raised in a non-religious house. When I was little my mother was into Spiritualism with automatic writing and seances. Then she was into the Ruth Montgomery / Edgar Cayce prophesies. My siblings got into reincarnation eastern religion. Since I was small I went along with these things. from the time I was 10 to my conversion at age 35, which was 7 years ago, I renounced all religion and became 100% agnostic Prior to conversion I considered Christians to be deluded and foolish people, as well as all other religious people. Science was my rule, nothing else.

Later the world of psychedelics was explored with about 80 psilocybin 6g trips, salvia, dxm, ghb, nutmeg, alcohol, the usual suspects. What I got out of them was the possibility that maybe there is something more than just physical existence.

People were I work said I had to "accept Jesus". Asking questions of them never got me a straight answer. So I set on my quest to understand Christianity. After several months went by I eventually "accepted", and tried to be a Christian. According to them I was now "saved". I wasn't converted until 6 months later, so for six months I was a false professor, little did I know.

So I tried to be a Christian the best I could. I still didn't understand it really. Traveled to the bookstores hoping to find a book that would explain it, no luck. Listened to TV and radio preachers, this didn't do anything for me. I now know anyone on TV or radio is 99% of the time a false teacher. I was given a Bible but still didn't "get it". I tried to follow what I read the best I could. Something strange was happening, the more I tried to be a "Christian" the more I was going in the opposite direction. The more I tried to love my neighbor, the more I realized I actually despise and hate my neighbor. Eventually over about six weeks this got progressively worse. I kept thinking how could I be a "Christian" and have such wicked thoughts that just seemed to magnify. I become a totally lost ball of ruin. I was a lost wretch, and if I were to be sent to hell it would be what I deserved. At the time I didn't know what was happening to me. This was Holy Spirit conviction, I was being showed who I was, and who Christ was and what His righteousness is. From that point on I knew I was saved. It was like a weight was taken off me. From that point on I "got it", and when I read the Bible I understood what it was saying, like it was a whole new book.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. *DELETED* [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585784 - 02/19/07 03:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Huehuecoyotl

Reason for deletion: irrelevant



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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by fireworks_god (02/19/07 05:21 PM)

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
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Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585791 - 02/19/07 03:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I will never accept Jesus in to my heart. And I will never let the light shine on me so to speak. And when I die, I will be recycled. Just as you will be.

The greatest mysteries are still alive and well. A 5,000 year old book didn't slay  them, and neither will your religious posturing.


:crankey: I cast the out!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6585792 - 02/19/07 03:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

If the Master tells the slave that he will secure mercy if the obeys without question and will be punished by death if he disobeys, that is not love or mercy and is still slavery. Your idea of God is someone who holds a gun to your head and tells you that you have a choice. There is no freedom or joy there. That is why I gave up my "salvation" as a Christian. I wanted to really learn what love was. I didn't want to be a slave to fear of damnation if I didn't do what I was told. I have never regretted that choice even though my family and church spent much time telling me of the terrors that awaited me.

Frankly your concept of the vengeful God seems evil and unconsciousness to me.:(


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6585827 - 02/19/07 03:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Imao I thought that too ha ha.

Moderator edit: Removed quotation of off-topic comment that has since been edited out of this thread.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Edited by fireworks_god (02/19/07 05:23 PM)

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Offlinekotik
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6586016 - 02/19/07 04:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Scripture says all who truly seek Him shall find Him.




who's scripture? didnt u just mention how none of the gospels are accurate? isn't that the same as scripture?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: kotik]
    #6586034 - 02/19/07 04:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Lol THIS was before he realized that he didn't believe the scriptures because he was in Holy Spirit conviction... Anyways this dude sounds like a bad Hollywood movie scenario.
To the thread starter... don't you think that maybe you had this repulsion to the scripture because you were right to feel that way? And that the best way to find God is to follow what you truly feel, to listen to your intuition?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6586151 - 02/19/07 04:56 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So, Fivepointer, what exactly confirmed the validity of the Bible (let alone the existence of God) for you?

I consider myself to be a rational human being, so, maybe if your experience provides the sufficient evidence for the Bible's validity, you will be able to convert myself along with many other Shroomerites, as you have sought to in earnest.

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Offlineflower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
    #6586200 - 02/19/07 05:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

flower_child said:
Did you happen to look at that website I linked to, fivepointer?

You really should take a look at it. It's really quite interesting.




Seriously man, this really put things into perspective for me. It was in another member's signature. I'm really glad I saw it and I think you should see it too, whether you gain anything from it or not.

www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com


--------------------
Today while walking up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd stay away

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Offlinesnakefinder
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6586355 - 02/19/07 05:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

You are given this warning and are also told that God is merciful. His mercy is shown in the fact that Jesus came and saved His people from their sin. You have heard the warnings yet you do not repent from wickedness. You cannot see yourself as a sinner, since your carnal mind can not comprehend itself to be wicked, and therefore can not see the need for salvation. You are secure in your own abilities in the spiritual realm, not realizing that your best spiritual works are a stench outside of Christ's perfect righteousness. You scoff when the Word declares you are spiritually dead and need to be born again. Part of your blindness is the fact you can't see your blindness. Christ came to seek are save the lost. Are you lost? If not you will not be sought or saved. Are you thirsting for righteousness? Only the thirsty are given the living waters. Are you heavy laden with sin? Only the laden are relieved. Have you come with nothing? Come with nothing and eat without price. Grace is sweet only for those in need of it. Oh how I hope that the Spirit might break you and show you sin and righteousness and judgment. Only then can the gospel shine into your heart.




That's not a good way to convince these people of something. You have to offer food and sex to make them listen.

Can you offer them food and sex? No, so give it up.
The truth will not go anyway, it will be there all the time.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: snakefinder]
    #6586366 - 02/19/07 05:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

He's proposing an idea for discussion that is philosophical/spiritual in nature. Naturally, there will be ideas and perspectives that not everyone cares for.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineleery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6586449 - 02/19/07 06:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

thank you for sharing fivepointer, Why do you think your revelation was the only way though? You penetrated through the Bible to its Source, whatever that is right, why did the Source only author one book, if you know what I am inquiring.

Buddhism teaches all the same things that Christianity does, except it does not say that you will fair badly if you do not become a Buddhist, it tells you it is a dangerous snake to be handled with care and treated with skeptical inquiry.

Why do you think every single person with good intention or bad will literally be thrown into a lake of fire?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6586545 - 02/19/07 06:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What shall be your excuse?

Hey, five pointer are you implying that god is going to give us a chance to make an exuse as we are judged?

Or, is it a rhetorical question intended to grab the attention of the audience?

If it is the latter, this strikes me as a very cynical ploy by one filled with the Holy Spirit.

If it is the former, are you implying that god is a sadist?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon] * 1
    #6586697 - 02/19/07 07:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder what fivepointer's excuse will be when Kali comes for him.



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OfflineGrok
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6586709 - 02/19/07 07:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

fivepointer, what will your excuse be when you realize how ridiculous this stuff is? "I was too afraid to think for myself!"

Does the air judge who breaths it? Water who drinks it? Food who eats it? These are the lifegiving forces, and they give unconditionally, they have no preference, that do not decree that one be righteous in their pursuits prior to being given life. That which gives life is God; Love+All life giving earthly forces (these are the same IMO). Your ideas of God are whack. Blindness does indeed include not seeing one's own blindness, that God is all around us, and is us.

Those fearing hell create it on Earth.

Why not chill out and just enjoy 'this' craziness? Why would God need anyone to act a certain way? fivepointer, when was the last time you had an original thought? You are the type who'd likely decree an open mind as an open door for Satan or some such nonsense. Relax.


--------------------
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Grok]
    #6586764 - 02/19/07 07:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The Biblical purge is not really about revenge, justice and whatnot.

It is more like ethnical cleaning. Some people die simply because what they are. And there is no moral at the end of story.

Though, I'm really getting anoyed at people who keep bringing up the idea of hell up, because they say they answer to christianity, but they really answer to catholic teachings, which are very loose interpretations of the bible.

The bible doesn't say you go to hell.
There is no punishment for the "wicked", they simply die of old age, and that's the end of it.

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Offlinesnakefinder
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Grok]
    #6586780 - 02/19/07 07:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cilosyb said:
Why would God need anyone to act a certain way?




are you one of those people who say rape is ok as long the woman is good looking?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Grok]
    #6586793 - 02/19/07 07:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cilosyb said:
Does the air judge who breaths it? Water who drinks it? Food who eats it? These are the lifegiving forces, and they give unconditionally, they have no preference, that do not decree that one be righteous in their pursuits prior to being given life.




This is my perspective on the matter. Before I form a belief, I first place it agansit the backdrop of that which can be directly perceived and observed within reality.

Personally, I have never observed anything within reality to justify adopting a preconceived notion of g*d. Concepts are excellent frameworks we form in order to assist in our ability to understand and to navigate reality, yet a concept must be derived from an observation or perception within reality in order to be an accurate represention of reality as we can know and understand it.

I myself find it unnecessary and obstructive to pick up a collection of texts and assert to myself that it is a representation of truth. Even history that I have no means of determining is an accurate portrayal of what once occured is not assumed to be absolute truth. I consider its possibillity and I seek to find that which I can learn from it.

I once had an acid trip in the Wisconsin River Valley, on top of a limestone bluff overlooking the river on a hill covered in trees, in a clearing of wild grass and a few conifers. This area of the state is known as the unglaciated area, in that the glaciers of the last Ice Age never imposed themselves on the terrain. This section of the river has literally been there for millions of years.

I could sense the history by observing what existed right then. The properties of the river, its flowing, its subsequent effects... wow I wish I was there right now (I have pictures on a camera that I need to take in and have developed, hopefully they turn out! :cool:).

We perceive reality and we are able to create a representation of what we perceive, and we have thought processes that allow ourselves to reconstruct the crime scene, so to speak. :smirk:

My point is that I focus on directly perceive that which presents itself to me in the moment, and I subsequently understand and know reality. Its all available in this moment. What I am getting to is that not yet has g*d appeared as g*d is preconceived to be in The Bible. :shrug:

Quote:


fivepointer, when was the last time you had an original thought? You are the type who'd likely decree an open mind as an open door for Satan or some such nonsense. Relax.




Hey, its detrimental to the discussion at hand to speculate in such a manner on the poster. Let's focus on the ideas. Criticize and refute the hell out of them if you wish. The personal nature of the posters involved is not up for debate. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: snakefinder]
    #6586824 - 02/19/07 07:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

snakefinder said:
are you one of those people who say rape is ok as long the woman is good looking?



What relevance does this question have in regards to what he said?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6586830 - 02/19/07 07:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I wonder what fivepointer's excuse will be when Kali comes for him.






Jesus Christ I hope Kali never comes for me when I'm on acid or mushrooms. :eek:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinesnakefinder
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6586834 - 02/19/07 07:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

snakefinder said:
are you one of those people who say rape is ok as long the woman is good looking?



What relevance does this question have in regards to what he said?




Well, he can't think of one reason to behave in a certain way, so I wanted to check if its really true

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6586846 - 02/19/07 07:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
So I tried to be a Christian the best I could. I still didn't understand it really. Traveled to the bookstores hoping to find a book that would explain it, no luck. Listened to TV and radio preachers, this didn't do anything for me. I now know anyone on TV or radio is 99% of the time a false teacher. I was given a Bible but still didn't "get it". I tried to follow what I read the best I could. Something strange was happening, the more I tried to be a "Christian" the more I was going in the opposite direction. The more I tried to love my neighbor, the more I realized I actually despise and hate my neighbor. Eventually over about six weeks this got progressively worse. I kept thinking how could I be a "Christian" and have such wicked thoughts that just seemed to magnify. I become a totally lost ball of ruin. I was a lost wretch, and if I were to be sent to hell it would be what I deserved. At the time I didn't know what was happening to me. This was Holy Spirit conviction, I was being showed who I was, and who Christ was and what His righteousness is. From that point on I knew I was saved. It was like a weight was taken off me. From that point on I "got it", and when I read the Bible I understood what it was saying, like it was a whole new book.




Don't you think maybe that you were too quick to label things? Too quick to take something beautiful and smash it into somebody else's mold? The transformation you experienced may have been incredible but what if you allowed yourself to interpret it using other peoples words and ideas? I think that if you keep yourself more open to the possibilities, think about all of this stuff outside of the rigid frame of mind imposed on you by other people throughout your life, you'll find much more personal and even more beautiful enlightenment. This wouldn't even necessarily exclude your beliefs but expand on them in a way that will allow you to become something much more.

You did all of those psychedelic drugs yet you seem to accept these beliefs at the whim of an invisible wind. Very odd.. and I'm not saying you're wrong, but what kind of response do you expect from people when you spout off all of the fire & brimstone catholic evangelicals are known for while ignorantly brushing off the beliefs of others? Maybe you should return for a moment back to the mindset you had in which you felt catholics were deluded and foolish and in which science was your only rule, and then assessing again your current beliefs. I think you've been maliciously duped. I mean, do you really not see hypocrisy in pretty much everything you're saying?


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: snakefinder]
    #6586851 - 02/19/07 07:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

He didn't assert that he doesn't have reasons and motivations for the manners in which he chooses to act, but he questioned whether or not "God" would need anyone to act in a certain way. Ultimately, I think he is asserting that there is no objective morality that is imposed upon us all.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6586981 - 02/19/07 08:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Suffer not the little children to come to Him,




Careful brother.

Quote:

But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me



Mark 10:14 (King James Version)
http://bible.cc/mark/10-14.htm


Adding a "not" reverses the meaning of a sentence.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, it's just that scripture is important and should not be misquoted.

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Offlineck10n3
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: shroomydan]
    #6588322 - 02/20/07 01:40 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom." - Albert Einstein

"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." - Mark Twain


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

Edited by ck10n3 (02/20/07 11:15 AM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6588935 - 02/20/07 09:41 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)







Smile everybody!


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6589013 - 02/20/07 10:48 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You did all of those psychedelic drugs yet you seem to accept these beliefs at the whim of an invisible wind. Very odd.. and I'm not saying you're wrong, but what kind of response do you expect from people when you spout off all of the fire & brimstone catholic evangelicals are known for while ignorantly brushing off the beliefs of others? Maybe you should return for a moment back to the mindset you had in which you felt catholics were deluded and foolish and in which science was your only rule, and then assessing again your current beliefs. I think you've been maliciously duped. I mean, do you really not see hypocrisy in pretty much everything you're saying?

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6589413 - 02/20/07 01:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Fivepointer is not Catholic Icy, he is a protestant fundamentalist who says that catholics are going to hell. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an "evangelical catholic" unless of course you mean a catholic who evangelizes, but that is not how the term "evangelical" is generally used.

Fivepointer's theology is about as far from catholic as you can get and still be considered Christian.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: shroomydan]
    #6589456 - 02/20/07 01:41 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ice was quoting a previous post by someone else.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: shroomydan]
    #6590118 - 02/20/07 04:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Just for the record I do not consider myself a "Protestant fundamentalist". In today's setting this almost always means an Arminian (you can look that up). I do not consider Arminianism to be within the bounds of orthodoxy. Roman Catholics and almost all so called "Protestants" today almost all hold to a synergistic justification, the idea that man must sufficiently cooperate with grace to make it effective. I consider this damnable error. I would be a Calvinistic, Old School, Particular Baptist.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6590317 - 02/20/07 05:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a human being. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6590636 - 02/20/07 06:52 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It's all politics, fivepointer.

Just love God and enjoy God. Ultimate Reality as we know it does not need the defensive aid of humans. Hearts will be in Awe of Him - and other hearts will simply not desire Him.

In fact - you make it sound as if God is unbearable to be around if He systematically punishes those who don't like His company. God is the treasure of all treasures - the unseen wealth. He is pure gold hidden beneath rocks and cleaves of wood. To suggest that rejecting this treasure warrants damnation is like a King offering a palace to a peasent - and then subjecting him to the Iron maiden and torture boards because he doesn't want the palace. It simply defies logic. It's the peasent's own damn loss that he doesn't want the palace, just as it is the loss of those who so materialistically reject Deity - their punishment is simply continued exile from the Fullness of God; just as the peasent, if deprived of the palace long enough, he will eventually dwell in a self-created Hell that consists not of lakes of fire, but a state of unbearable exile and longing. The soul is said to pass through many lives before its thirst for God can no longer be ignored. And Lo! An ancient vessel has finally made its way home.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinedruglord
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
    #6591120 - 02/20/07 08:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

fivepointer, following your deepest intuition doesn't lead everybody to the same conclusion. Even if you are seeking to address the feeling of guilt and corruption by worldly desires (even the desire to eat, for example), there are an infinite number of possible approaches. For many people, Christianity is not even a remote possibility. For anyone to pass judgement on someone else because that person is not living up to their ideals is absurd; to punish them for it is tyranny--nothing more than an exercise of power.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6591459 - 02/20/07 09:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Your explanation is a little confusing. :confused:
Do you consider yourself an Arminian?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6591474 - 02/20/07 09:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What I am interested in hearing is Fivepointer's reasoning behind the Bible's validity and Christianity at large.

What evidence do you base your claims on, Fivepointer?

It is not satisfactory for debate to to say "The Bible is the true, inerrant, and spoken Word of God. And we know this, because the Bible says it is." You must invoke some sort of third party validity check.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591514 - 02/20/07 09:47 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I like to hear what people say about the bible also. For me the book is very dry and uninspiring. What people have to say about it is interesting. :laugh:

That's not say that it is a dry and uninspiring book, it just doesn't resonate with me.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6591598 - 02/20/07 10:02 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Visit a Charismatic Church. (lol)

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591693 - 02/20/07 10:19 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

I tend to get kicked out of places like Charismatic Churches, by big guys in expensive suits. I never have a good reason as to why I should be allowed to stay, so I'm always "excused".

"Excused" seems to be another thing fivepointer could have been implying in his openning question. Which make this whole thread just that much richer. :smile:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6592213 - 02/20/07 11:58 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Hi fivepointer

You said originally when you tried to be a Christian, love your neighbour, you found yourself going in the opposite direction.

After you 'got it', did that part of you change, to where you can now love your neighbours? Could you tell me a little more about that transition, your observations within yourself?

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6594463 - 02/21/07 04:37 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Your explanation is a little confusing. :confused:
Do you consider yourself an Arminian?




No.  I am not an Arminian.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6594529 - 02/21/07 04:55 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
What I am interested in hearing is Fivepointer's reasoning behind the Bible's validity and Christianity at large.

What evidence do you base your claims on, Fivepointer?

It is not satisfactory for debate to to say "The Bible is the true, inerrant, and spoken Word of God. And we know this, because the Bible says it is." You must invoke some sort of third party validity check.




How do I know what I believe is true? Every true believer has the witness of the Holy Spirit, which witnesses with the spirit of the believer. I did not have this before conversion.

Every believer is has been given a new heart and nature. This is a drastic difference in the life of the believer.

Man could never have invented the doctrines that compose the gospel, since it says things that man would find greatly offensive and absurd. The fact that it took 1,500 years to complete, yet the message rings throughout all the books with great harmony. The exact way the message is hidden and revealed.

The fact that many events were foretold that came to pass exactly as described.

The testimony of many witnesses that declare of the physical death and physical resurrection of Jesus as well as many miracles performed by Him and His apostles.

These are some of the reasons for knowing what I believe is true.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6594538 - 02/21/07 04:58 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
I tend to get kicked out of places like Charismatic Churches, by big guys in expensive suits. I never have a good reason as to why I should be allowed to stay, so I'm always "excused".

"Excused" seems to be another thing fivepointer could have been implying in his openning question. Which make this whole thread just that much richer. :smile:




The "Charismatic" movement is a great deception.  The doctrines will always expose the true from the false.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6594554 - 02/21/07 05:02 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Man could never have invented the doctrines that compose the gospel, since it says things that man would find greatly offensive and absurd.




I apologize but this is not a reasonable statement. Human beings are capable of making statements that many others will find offensive and absurd. It happens all the time, even on this website. It happened thousands upon thousands of years ago. If this is your only line of "reasoning" that suggests that man could not have written the texts of the bible completely on their own then you have demonstrated nothing of substance on the matter.

Quote:


The fact that many events were foretold that came to pass exactly as described.




Substantiation, please? Which events? Exactly as described? Elaborate.

Quote:


The testimony of many witnesses that declare of the physical death and physical resurrection of Jesus as well as many miracles performed by Him and His apostles.




Testimonials? Since when are testimonials considered to be truth? Ever read testimonials on those shady pills? "I ate this pill and my dick grew seven inches in two days - J.E.". :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Shattered]
    #6594652 - 02/21/07 05:25 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Shattered said:
Hi fivepointer

You said originally when you tried to be a Christian, love your neighbour, you found yourself going in the opposite direction.

After you 'got it', did that part of you change, to where you can now love your neighbours? Could you tell me a little more about that transition, your observations within yourself?




Does a Christian sin after conversion? Yes. The difference is that a new heart has been given and a new nature implanted. So while a Christian sins it leads to eventual sorrow for that sin. Because act of sin works against the new nature a Christian can not stay in sin. Sin no longer has dominion on the converted.

Because great grace has been poured out on the Christian, this is why he should be gracious to others.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6594871 - 02/21/07 06:19 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either doesn't exist, isn't how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.




This is logic fivepointer.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.




And you have heard the word of god? I think that most likely you read/heard the word of man, after countless revisions and editing. Do you discard the ancient texts that have been uncovered and reach for your King James Version that was printed in 1995? How can one discern truth and falsehood by reading a book? Jesus Christ did not author your holy text. How can you so easily disregard ancient documents that are not in accordance with your beliefs? Are they not also records of Jesus' life and teachings? Now, common sense would say that the ancient texts likely contain more truth than the new because they were written a *hell* of a lot closer to the time period. Realistically, they can be given almost no credit for they are simply just words, written by men, in a time where there were very many misconceptions of the nature of reality. Who judges which gospel is true?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6594979 - 02/21/07 06:43 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either doesn't exist, isn't how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.




This is logic fivepointer.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.




And you have heard the word of god? I think that most likely you read/heard the word of man, after countless revisions and editing. Do you discard the ancient texts that have been uncovered and reach for your King James Version that was printed in 1995? How can one discern truth and falsehood by reading a book? Jesus Christ did not author your holy text. How can you so easily disregard ancient documents that are not in accordance with your beliefs? Are they not also records of Jesus' life and teachings? Now, common sense would say that the ancient texts likely contain more truth than the new because they were written a *hell* of a lot closer to the time period. Realistically, they can be given almost no credit for they are simply just words, written by men, in a time where there were very many misconceptions of the nature of reality. Who judges which gospel is true?




Just to clarify, when I use the term "gospel" I am referring to the doctrines that define the faith, this is the gospel. I am not using the word to mean books of the Bible like the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Galatians uses the word “gospel” in this way:
Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Greek/Hebrew manuscripts are available so you can check the translators. The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, the received text. The KJV was first printed in 1611 , the commonly used version today is the 1769 update.

These so-called newly discovered "gospels" clearly do not belong in the canon. The content and message does not belong. Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6595004 - 02/21/07 06:48 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

:flowstone:  I guess some people just don't get it.....


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6595438 - 02/21/07 08:23 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.





And you know this how?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6596331 - 02/22/07 01:21 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6596378 - 02/22/07 02:00 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Here's some applied logic of Christianity, filtered through Casteneda...it ought to be interesting, so read it up!

1. The world is evil. (All things worldly, ya know, gossip, useless power sapping soap opera stuff) Christian....but also Casteneda.

Christian method to fix #1, blame imperfection and beg for forgiveness.

Castaneda's method to fix #1, Stop the world. Do not involve yourself with it. It is useless waste of time and power.

2. The Afterlife

Christianity's view: Don't do 'bad' or you'll burn in Hell!

Casteneda's view: Afterlife? You suck at this life, get it right first!

3. Love and Acceptance

Christianity: God forgives you for being evil, so through his unconditional love, he gives you this CONDITION: Be good or burn forever.

Casteneda: Nothing is personal, not love, not hate, nothing. It is all based on our own point of view, and that is all that matters.




In summary: If God is love, Stevie Wonder plays the piano, and love is blind, does that mean that God plays the Piano?


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6597646 - 02/22/07 02:55 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity?  Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh?  From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.




IMO the original poster has no interest in seeing any other views. Of course he sidesteps questions he has no answer for. He, it seems, is not here to learn or discuss anything. He, it seems, is here to preach fundamentalist Christianity as part of his duty for his god. My guess is he is building up credits. I grew up around the dogmatic fundamentalist mindset. In church I was told  that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones. Unfortunately my father was one of them. A very unhappy and fear driven man. So sad. He never was able to show any real love because he had none and believed he was a terrible sinner and groveled before his idol to beg forgiveness for being human. The only clear emotions he ever showed me were fear and wrath.:( Fortunately I have let go of much of  this and feel much empathy for him and I also do for this poster. Yet I will aways stand against what they preach.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6597683 - 02/22/07 03:02 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

In church I was told that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones




Same here. People told me that evidence against Christianity was the work of Satan. I was also instructed to avoid any secular texts-- since this would open my mind up to Satan's lies-- irregardless of their topic.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6598155 - 02/22/07 04:32 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.




Actually I am not trying to dodge anything. I just do not have the time to answer every question.

No group "pressured" me into anything, I was the agnostic's agnostic. I merely came with an open mind to the scriptures and they opened up to me. God reveals the gospel to those He intends to save, it is entirely a free gift. I do not see what I believe as contraining or ignorant, I see it as the wisdom of God, and a joyous thing.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6598184 - 02/22/07 04:38 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.





And you know this how?




By the scriptures and nature of God. God is in charge of every event, every hair on a head. The notion that God can not preserve His Word is really saying God is not in omnipotent and can be frustrated by men. This "God" does not exist in scripture.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6598199 - 02/22/07 04:41 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word




Who are you to decide that "God" did not want the lost gospels as part of the orthodox doctrine?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6598219 - 02/22/07 04:45 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Because otherwise he wouldn't have let man change the books of the Bible, duh. :hehehe:

Either god is directly responsible for all action or no action. There is no middle-ground.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6598244 - 02/22/07 04:49 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

This thread is pointless. I'm beginning to think that FivePointer is 100% smug in his current theology and has no intentions of even considering that he is at fault.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6598265 - 02/22/07 04:52 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
This thread is pointless. I'm beginning to think that FivePointer is 100% smug in his current theology and has no intentions of even considering that he is at fault.




Its quite possible that he is, yet these are the ideas that are presented, and one can take the discussion or leave it. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: justamonkey]
    #6598430 - 02/22/07 05:19 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Here's some applied logic of Christianity, filtered through Casteneda...it ought to be interesting, so read it up!

1. The world is evil. (All things worldly, ya know, gossip, useless power sapping soap opera stuff) Christian....but also Casteneda.

Christian method to fix #1, blame imperfection and beg for forgiveness.


The world is evil, no doubt, and no method fixes it.

Castaneda's method to fix #1, Stop the world. Do not involve yourself with it. It is useless waste of time and power.

2. The Afterlife

Christianity's view: Don't do 'bad' or you'll burn in Hell!


No one does good, and all are bad, so it is not a matter of not doing bad to avoid hell. Scripture is clear that "doing good" can never be a means to avoid hell. Salvation is not by merits, but solely by grace without works.

Casteneda's view: Afterlife? You suck at this life, get it right first!

3. Love and Acceptance

Christianity: God forgives you for being evil, so through his unconditional love, he gives you this CONDITION: Be good or burn forever.


This is openly false and opposed to Christian theology. Salvation has NO CONDITIONS. The elect are saved DESPITE who they are, not BECAUSE what they do. Everything is given from above. Faith, repentence, ect are not means of becoming justified, they are evidences of the justification that was freely given.

Casteneda: Nothing is personal, not love, not hate, nothing. It is all based on our own point of view, and that is all that matters.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6598437 - 02/22/07 05:19 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity?  Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh?  From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.




Actually I am not trying to dodge anything.  I just do not have the time to answer every question.

No group "pressured" me into anything, I was the agnostic's agnostic.  I merely came with an open mind to the scriptures and they opened up to me.  God reveals the gospel to those He intends to save, it is entirely a free gift.  I do not see what I believe as contraining or ignorant, I see it as the wisdom of God, and a joyous thing.




You remind me of that South Park episode about the Mormons... :lol:
But anyways... it all comes down to... whatever makes you feel safe dude...
After all, everyone perceives God according to our needs and in very much similarity to our own character and personality... In a word, the God you have in mind is a reflection of what you feel about yourself.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6598470 - 02/22/07 05:26 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The world is evil, no doubt, and no method fixes it.




A.) Define "evil" as you have come to understand and utilize it.

B.) Does not right action and understanding work towards resolving the root causes of what may be defined as "evil"?

Quote:


This is openly false and opposed to Christian theology. Salvation has NO CONDITIONS. The elect are saved DESPITE who they are, not BECAUSE what they do. Everything is given from above.




So, if someone cannot act in any manner that would ensure salvation, then what is the distinction between those who are saved and those who are condemned?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6598544 - 02/22/07 05:38 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.




IMO the original poster has no interest in seeing any other views. Of course he sidesteps questions he has no answer for. He, it seems, is not here to learn or discuss anything. He, it seems, is here to preach fundamentalist Christianity as part of his duty for his god. My guess is he is building up credits. I grew up around the dogmatic fundamentalist mindset. In church I was told that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones. Unfortunately my father was one of them. A very unhappy and fear driven man. So sad. He never was able to show any real love because he had none and believed he was a terrible sinner and groveled before his idol to beg forgiveness for being human. The only clear emotions he ever showed me were fear and wrath.:( Fortunately I have let go of much of this and feel much empathy for him and I also do for this poster. Yet I will aways stand against what they preach.




"Fundamentalist" really is not an accurate term for me for those familiar with theological terms.

No Christian "builds up credits", this sounds like Roman Catholicism. They teach such a works salvation. A Christian has ALREADY been forgiven, apart from any merits, and has FULL assurance of the forgiveness. The motivation of a believer is thanksgiving, not fear. I don't know your father's theology but it does not sound orthodox.

Most teachings in Christendom are false. If I approach a so called Christian and ask them for specifics of what they believe, they really have no clue, and most don't even read the Bible! They are drones. They do not believe the gospel that I believe in. The churches are a sea of wolves and a real disaster.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6598619 - 02/22/07 05:51 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
This thread is pointless. I'm beginning to think that FivePointer is 100% smug in his current theology and has no intentions of even considering that he is at fault.




Your right. A believer by definition knows what he believes in. If I were to say "I'm considering my beliefs", then I'm not a believer, I'm an agnostic.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6598692 - 02/22/07 06:06 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Your right. A believer by definition knows what he believes in. If I were to say "I'm considering my beliefs", then I'm not a believer, I'm an agnostic.




It is possible to believe in something yet not be certain.

Consider the following example:

I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I am not certain that it will. I acknowledge the fact that it is possible the sun will not rise.

You are saying that in order to believe in something, you cannot even have questions or concerns as to the validity of that belief. In my opinion, what you're describing is ignorance, not reasonable belief.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6598744 - 02/22/07 06:17 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

A.) Define "evil" as you have come to understand and utilize it.

How do we know what evil is? By the law. The when the law is broken it gives evidence of being evil. The law is a killing instrument, it testifies to the nature of man. The nature of fallen man is to think that law keeping obtains merits, this is the basis of most false religion, a self-righteous delusion.

B.) Does not right action and understanding work towards resolving the root causes of what may be defined as "evil"?

The root cause of evil is fact that man is fallen. Nothing can fix that, short of conversion.



Quote:

This is openly false and opposed to Christian theology. Salvation has NO CONDITIONS. The elect are saved DESPITE who they are, not BECAUSE what they do. Everything is given from above.



So, if someone cannot act in any manner that would ensure salvation, then what is the distinction between those who are saved and those who are condemned?

The grace of God is the only distiction. This is why boasting is excluded. A saved person can not say I did X, Y or Z to get saved, then he would have a reason to boast and hold this over others heads. Grace is freely given, not given upon meeting a condition. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6598908 - 02/22/07 06:43 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
No one does good, and all are bad, so it is not a matter of not doing bad to avoid hell. Scripture is clear that "doing good" can never be a means to avoid hell. Salvation is not by merits, but solely by grace without works.





This is the crux of your rotten philosophy. Good can and is frequently done in the world. Hell is a state brought to fruition through negative deeds, just as heaven is a state brought to fruition through positive seeds. Nothing can manifest without a cause, this is clearly the case from a scientific point of view, just as it is from a spiriutal.

If your God condemns good people to hell simply becuase they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of uncoditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compasisoante, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?


--------------------

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6598916 - 02/22/07 06:45 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How do we know what evil is? By the law. The when the law is broken it gives evidence of being evil.




The law is at the whim of human beings. Laws change, laws can be reversed. Are you asserting that anyone who uses hallucinogenic mushrooms is "evil"?

Quote:


The root cause of evil is fact that man is fallen. Nothing can fix that, short of conversion.




Man is "fallen"? What does that mean? What have I personally done to receive prior judgement?

Quote:


The grace of God is the only distiction. This is why boasting is excluded. A saved person can not say I did X, Y or Z to get saved, then he would have a reason to boast and hold this over others heads. Grace is freely given, not given upon meeting a condition. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.




So then how do you know that some are saved and some are not, and what distinction does God make in determining this? If one cannot know that one is saved by one's actions, then how can one know that another has been condemned?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6599075 - 02/22/07 07:14 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
How do we know what evil is? By the law. The when the law is broken it gives evidence of being evil.




The law is at the whim of human beings. Laws change, laws can be reversed. Are you asserting that anyone who uses hallucinogenic mushrooms is "evil"?

I was not referring to political laws. The law refers to what the scripture defines as law.

Quote:


The root cause of evil is fact that man is fallen. Nothing can fix that, short of conversion.




Man is "fallen"? What does that mean? What have I personally done to receive prior judgement?

Man is imputed guilty in Adam and condemned in Adam. Man also inherits a fallen nature due to the effects of the Fall.

Quote:


The grace of God is the only distiction. This is why boasting is excluded. A saved person can not say I did X, Y or Z to get saved, then he would have a reason to boast and hold this over others heads. Grace is freely given, not given upon meeting a condition. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.




So then how do you know that some are saved and some are not, and what distinction does God make in determining this? If one cannot know that one is saved by one's actions, then how can one know that another has been condemned?




Those who believe the gospel are saved. The belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit of salvation. Everyone that God intends to save will in good time hear the gospel and believe it. There is no salvation without the new birth, belief of the gospel, and giving of the Holy Spirit.

Many can appear to have many outwardly appearing good deeds, but this is not how one determines if someone is a Christian. The doctrine they hold to, what they believe about who Christ is and what He has done, defines the gospel. These doctrines cut right into the heart and is how a Christian decides who is and is not a fellow Christian.

What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599128 - 02/22/07 07:21 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.




Exactly. Now kindly stop assuming on His behalf.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599137 - 02/22/07 07:23 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Those who believe the gospel are saved. The belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit of salvation. Everyone that God intends to save will in good time hear the gospel and believe it. There is no salvation without the new birth, belief of the gospel, and giving of the Holy Spirit.

Many can appear to have many outwardly appearing good deeds, but this is not how one determines if someone is a Christian. The doctrine they hold to, what they believe about who Christ is and what He has done, defines the gospel. These doctrines cut right into the heart and is how a Christian decides who is and is not a fellow Christian.





And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them? :confused:

Quote:

fivepointer said:
What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.




If that's so, would you be ok of God would consider you unworthy of being saved?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6599144 - 02/22/07 07:25 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them? :confused:



Don't you know anything?  God only saves assholes who push their beliefs on others.


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6599155 - 02/22/07 07:27 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them? :confused:



Don't you know anything?  God only saves assholes who push their beliefs on others.




Lol


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6599232 - 02/22/07 07:42 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Seems just about as pointless as a who-is-less-competitive competition doesn't it?


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6599320 - 02/22/07 08:03 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Those who believe the gospel are saved. The belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit of salvation. Everyone that God intends to save will in good time hear the gospel and believe it. There is no salvation without the new birth, belief of the gospel, and giving of the Holy Spirit.

Many can appear to have many outwardly appearing good deeds, but this is not how one determines if someone is a Christian. The doctrine they hold to, what they believe about who Christ is and what He has done, defines the gospel. These doctrines cut right into the heart and is how a Christian decides who is and is not a fellow Christian.





And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them? :confused:

Quote:

fivepointer said:
What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.




If that's so, would you be ok of God would consider you unworthy of being saved?




Yes, I am unworthy of being saved, as is everyone else.


Many seemingly "good people" will end up in hell.  Why?  Because they do not have a righteousness that meets up to God's demands.  The only righteousness the will be accepted is Christ's alone.  As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599347 - 02/22/07 08:13 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.



I don't think that's going to be a problem for them.



--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599350 - 02/22/07 08:14 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

When we dye we don't have material bodies anymore (duh) so what will that lake of fire will do to the spirits? Don't you think it's just as in vain as one slapping the air?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599374 - 02/22/07 08:19 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)



Fundamentalism, LOL


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599455 - 02/22/07 08:40 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many seemingly "good people" will end up in hell. Why? Because they do not have a righteousness that meets up to God's demands.




But you've already asserted that one could not know how g*d discerns who he will save and who he will condemn. If you do not know g*d's demands, then you cannot state knowingly that many people will end up in "hell" - that is, if you, at the same time, have the slightest bit of interest in maintaining a set of beliefs that, at the very least, are consistent.

Quote:


As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.




How does this prove that they will suffer g*d's wrath? You've stated yourself that one cannot know whether or not one or others will be saved by their own actions, and considering oneself a "Buddhist" or a "Christian" are actions.

Please do inform us as to how you cannot know how g*d determines who will be condemned and who will be saved, but yet you continue to assert who will be condemned and who will be saved. It clearly cannot be both. Please enlighten us.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6599533 - 02/22/07 09:01 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

You are given this warning and are also told that God is merciful. His mercy is shown in the fact that Jesus came and saved His people from their sin. You have heard the warnings yet you do not repent from wickedness. You cannot see yourself as a sinner, since your carnal mind can not comprehend itself to be wicked, and therefore can not see the need for salvation. You are secure in your own abilities in the spiritual realm, not realizing that your best spiritual works are a stench outside of Christ's perfect righteousness. You scoff when the Word declares you are spiritually dead and need to be born again. Part of your blindness is the fact you can't see your blindness. Christ came to seek are save the lost. Are you lost? If not you will not be sought or saved. Are you thirsting for righteousness? Only the thirsty are given the living waters. Are you heavy laden with sin? Only the laden are relieved. Have you come with nothing? Come with nothing and eat without price. Grace is sweet only for those in need of it. Oh how I hope that the Spirit might break you and show you sin and righteousness and judgment. Only then can the gospel shine into your heart.




We should start a crusade.

Just like we need people to work at McDonalds and be Garbage Men, we need people to goto hell. and if what you say is true, then I guess I'm going to burn. Please live YOUR life and I'll live MINE the way I believe is right.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Offlineleery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6599724 - 02/22/07 09:42 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

there is a Bible passage that states that there is a spirit world, and that Jesus preached in it that people may be saved...... how exactly does this fit in with eternal punishment?

the picture of the monk is a very good point.... would their concentrative abilities disappear in hell, causing them to be phased by fire...... ? can you honestly say they were not doing the work of God that they would be so selfless and Christ-like to do this for a cause they believed in? Is this not an extreme example of taking up one's own cross in order to follow what they belive?

why use fear of hell and punishment to convince people about grace, why not make a thread that openly describes the rewards of love and benevolence and peace that will come through following Christ.

at any rate, I am working my way through the New Testament right now to see what happens.

Edited by leery11 (02/22/07 09:44 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6599874 - 02/22/07 10:25 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
When we dye we don't have material bodies anymore (duh) so what will that lake of fire will do to the spirits?



Perhaps this lake of fire is a spiritual fire. Something like this:



--------------------

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6599882 - 02/22/07 10:27 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Looks like an acid trip. :wink::thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
    #6601290 - 02/23/07 09:07 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

why use fear of hell and punishment to convince people about grace, why not make a thread that openly describes the rewards of love and benevolence and peace that will come through following Christ.

For me the answer is clear. Fundamentalist christians don't feel grace or love. Those are just concepts in their minds. What IMO is felt is guilt, self loathing and fear of punishment with real clarity. That's why they continually harp on this. When they believe they are saved then that dulls the fear trip they are on. This is what they call grace and love. It's on the back burner for sure and they can't really feel it like they can their blanket fear of hell. So they use what they know best.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6603246 - 02/23/07 05:53 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If your God condemns good people to hell simply because they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of unconditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compassionate, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?




Nicely said! :smile: :wink: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"God" gave us (some of us anyways) brains that can reason and utilize logic.  He has doomed us to an eternity of suffering because he knew how each one of us would think before he created us.  He made sure that we would question blind faith and instead simply observe nature to arrive at a more reasonable interpretation of reality.  He has forseen all of this, for he is all-knowing, but has still condemned us to hell. 

Fivepointer, you really need to think about this paradox.  This logic is your true salvation.  I am afraid that if this does not make sense to you, then you will never be able to realize truth.  By the way, do you know what unconditional means?  Come on man, this is an easy one too!  JUST THINK ABOUT IT!


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6603361 - 02/23/07 06:24 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many seemingly "good people" will end up in hell. Why? Because they do not have a righteousness that meets up to God's demands.




But you've already asserted that one could not know how g*d discerns who he will save and who he will condemn. If you do not know g*d's demands, then you cannot state knowingly that many people will end up in "hell" - that is, if you, at the same time, have the slightest bit of interest in maintaining a set of beliefs that, at the very least, are consistent.

Quote:


As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.




How does this prove that they will suffer g*d's wrath? You've stated yourself that one cannot know whether or not one or others will be saved by their own actions, and considering oneself a "Buddhist" or a "Christian" are actions.

Please do inform us as to how you cannot know how g*d determines who will be condemned and who will be saved, but yet you continue to assert who will be condemned and who will be saved. It clearly cannot be both. Please enlighten us.




The scripture is clear that those who inherit eternal life have been ordained to that end, and that salvation is a free gift of grace without works. However salvation does not happen without means. Every one who will inherit eternal life will, before they die, be converted and believe the gospel. I can not say a Buddhist will definately go to hell, because I don't know that he won't be converted prior to his death. I can say a current Buddhist is unregenerate.

There is no contradiction involved. Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation, the belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit and evidence of salvation.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
    #6603442 - 02/23/07 06:47 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
there is a Bible passage that states that there is a spirit world, and that Jesus preached in it that people may be saved...... how exactly does this fit in with eternal punishment?

the picture of the monk is a very good point.... would their concentrative abilities disappear in hell, causing them to be phased by fire...... ? can you honestly say they were not doing the work of God that they would be so selfless and Christ-like to do this for a cause they believed in? Is this not an extreme example of taking up one's own cross in order to follow what they belive?

why use fear of hell and punishment to convince people about grace, why not make a thread that openly describes the rewards of love and benevolence and peace that will come through following Christ.

at any rate, I am working my way through the New Testament right now to see what happens.





I think your referring to:
1Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is a snip from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on this verse:
The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, lwyvb, "in hell", see Re 20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.

Hell is not about being able to meditate.

You seem to think sincerity can count towards one's salvation when you say look how the monk's are so selfless and Christ-like. These monks, who do not bring the gospel, are not doing God's will, they are working against Christ with a false gospel of deadly self-rightous religion.

Why preach about hell and damnation? It is an essential ingredient of the gospel, the righteousness of God. The whole gospel should be preached, not excluding any part.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6603468 - 02/23/07 06:55 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
If your God condemns good people to hell simply because they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of unconditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compassionate, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?




Nicely said! :smile: :wink: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"God" gave us (some of us anyways) brains that can reason and utilize logic.  He has doomed us to an eternity of suffering because he knew how each one of us would think before he created us.  He made sure that we would question blind faith and instead simply observe nature to arrive at a more reasonable interpretation of reality.  He has forseen all of this, for he is all-knowing, but has still condemned us to hell. 

Fivepointer, you really need to think about this paradox.  This logic is your true salvation.  I am afraid that if this does not make sense to you, then you will never be able to realize truth.  By the way, do you know what unconditional means?  Come on man, this is an easy one too!  JUST THINK ABOUT IT!





God does not merely foresee events, He causes all events to come to pass.

Unconditional love is only for those He indends to save.  This is why grace is free and apart from merits.  The reprobate (those He intends to damn) are not loved, they are hated.  God does not love those in hell.  I suggest you ponder Romans chapter 9.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6603502 - 02/23/07 07:05 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Unconditional love is only for those He indends to save.



Then by definition, it is not unconditional.


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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6603519 - 02/23/07 07:11 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Unconditional love is only for those He indends to save.



Then by definition, it is not unconditional.




I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6604864 - 02/24/07 06:09 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not.  Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown: :nonono:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6604931 - 02/24/07 07:32 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not.  Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown: :nonono:




What reason would God have to like a sinner?  There is no reason.  But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy.  No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ.  Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605042 - 02/24/07 09:03 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Are you saying that if someone does not think the exact way you do they are going to burn in the lake of fire for all eternity? Yet you believe in freedom? If someone has the same morals as you and lives the same lifestyle they will suffer? What if a man was born and captured and forced to live in a cage his entire life and a bible was never handed to him... Will his fate be the lake of fire?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605046 - 02/24/07 09:06 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605054 - 02/24/07 09:11 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

God if it exists at all, does not meddle in the petty affairs of men. When you di I see two things happening for sure. Your brain shutting down, your body decomposing. Scary stuff.  :shocked: I know some people get nervous thinking about death, but let me assure you, it will be nothing like you imagined.

YOU WILL DIE ONE DAY. And you have NO IDEA what will come next. IF anbything does at all. Chances are you will just die.


But your fear has built a lovely little construction of what will happen. And of course the "bad" people will be punished. :rolleyes:


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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6605058 - 02/24/07 09:13 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

If God were to punish anyone, I assume it would be those who hold back our spiritual evolution.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6605073 - 02/24/07 09:22 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

And of course the people who do not think exactly like you will be punished. :rolleyes:




The fourth reich has arrived!

I honestly have no problems with you beliefs.  I do have a problem with the fact that you condemn others for thinking differently.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605123 - 02/24/07 09:53 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not.  Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown: :nonono:




What reason would God have to like a sinner?  There is no reason.  But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy.  No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ.  Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.




If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.


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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6605129 - 02/24/07 09:56 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.




Hundreds of millions of people have never heard any gospel their entire life. If someone lives and dies and never heard any gospel before they died: they will not be saved. God teaches each and every one of His people the gospel and converts them.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6605141 - 02/24/07 10:00 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

And of course the people who do not think exactly like you will be punished. :rolleyes:




The fourth reich has arrived!

I honestly have no problems with you beliefs.  I do have a problem with the fact that you condemn others for thinking differently.




I don't condemn anyone.  God does the condemning.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605147 - 02/24/07 10:06 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

And of course the people who do not think exactly like you will be punished. :rolleyes:




The fourth reich has arrived!

I honestly have no problems with you beliefs.  I do have a problem with the fact that you condemn others for thinking differently.




I don't condemn anyone.  God does the condemning.




If God condemns his children for thinking differently, or believing other things, then he is not a good or just God at all, and as i said earlier, not worthy of worship by anyone.

Your POV is just bog standard backward fundamentalist thinking. You have ceased to think for yourself, and have surrendered your will to a closed minded doctrine of separation. This POV is contrary to your own spiritual evolution, and you will suffer more than anyone else will for it.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6605186 - 02/24/07 10:25 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not.  Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown: :nonono:




What reason would God have to like a sinner?  There is no reason.  But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy.  No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ.  Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.




If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.




God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.  Those under wrath are not His children.

As far as the role of faith in salvation.  Since every part of salvation is freely given, this includes the act of believing.  The belief is not a requirement, it is a gift.  People are born condemned, the act of unbelief does not condemn them per se, it exposes that fact that they are already condemned since their unregenerated heart resists the gospel truths.

Christ met every demand of the law on behalf of His people, He is the sole cause of justification. Men's belief or any other work, can not enter into a cause of justification.  Justification by faith only means that faith observes and makes known to the mind the justification, it does not cause the justification to happen.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605204 - 02/24/07 10:34 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

So, why would the 'selcted ones' been 'tested' through this existence here on earth ?
This is the main paradox, at least for me.
To prove the selection ? Sounds like circle-reasoning.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605209 - 02/24/07 10:37 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.



You mean there is another creator other than God??? :shocked:

This sounds like dangerous Gnostic heresy!  :nono:


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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6605221 - 02/24/07 10:40 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

aeh, to five:
And what if a selected one looses his faith ? Or doesn't get it in a lifetime ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6605239 - 02/24/07 10:49 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.



You mean there is another creator other than God??? :shocked:

This sounds like dangerous Gnostic heresy!  :nono:




God raised up Pharaoh, and hardened his heart.  Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction.  Does God love Pharaoh?

Notice the reply in the verses below. How can he find fault with Pharaoh if he was hardened?  The answer is astonishing, who are you to reply against God?  Two kinds of vessels in this world, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, both are according to God's purposes.

Roman 9:17-24
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605243 - 02/24/07 10:49 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?
Of course, they believe in the Gospel and all and besides that, they preach it... will they be forgiven for abusing little children just because they believe in the gospel?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
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Here is true peace
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6605251 - 02/24/07 10:54 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?



FYI, fivepointer hates Catholics.


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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6605264 - 02/24/07 11:01 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?



FYI, fivepointer hates Catholics.




Damn!:)


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6605266 - 02/24/07 11:02 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?
Of course, they believe in the Gospel and all and besides that, they preach it... will they be forgiven for abusing little children just because they believe in the gospel?




Roman Catholicism is a false gospel, they believe a counterfeit gospel not THE ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL. If a priest who abused children were to become saved, and believe the real gospel in the future, then any and all sin is forgiven. If this happened he would cease being a Roman Catholic at conversion, and would certainly not continue in a life of such wickedness.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605300 - 02/24/07 11:19 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?:rolleyes:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6605425 - 02/24/07 12:08 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
aeh, to five:
And what if a selected one looses his faith ? Or doesn't get it in a lifetime ?




A selected one will never loose faith after they are converted. Many who are not selected say they have faith, but then fall away. They never had any salvation to begin with. You can't have true salvation and later loose it.

Every selected one will at sometime in their life be converted and believe. The elect will all be converted. You can not be one of the elect and not be converted before you die.

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Registered: 10/15/04
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605429 - 02/24/07 12:09 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.




Hundreds of millions of people have never heard any gospel their entire life. If someone lives and dies and never heard any gospel before they died: they will not be saved. God teaches each and every one of His people the gospel and converts them.




Wow... so you are saying that god actually creates some people and then chooses not to show them the gospel and they go to hell because of it?

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605436 - 02/24/07 12:11 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

The stories came shaky from the gate, thats why I don't blindly believe, cause their is no real way of knowing exactly what went down other than speculating on it. Thats why there is about 100 different versions based off the same story/

I'm sure you account of the accurate story has something to do with what your indoctrinated with (cultural pride), and have nothing to back your claims, tell me what exactly is the truest gospels and how do you know for sure.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6605440 - 02/24/07 12:11 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?:rolleyes:




You are correct.  Even though the man who "radiates love everywhere" may seem really good by the standards of men, by God's standards he falls way short.

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605451 - 02/24/07 12:15 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not.  Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown: :nonono:




What reason would God have to like a sinner?  There is no reason.  But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy.  No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ.  Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.




If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.




God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.  Those under wrath are not His children.

As far as the role of faith in salvation.  Since every part of salvation is freely given, this includes the act of believing.  The belief is not a requirement, it is a gift.  People are born condemned, the act of unbelief does not condemn them per se, it exposes that fact that they are already condemned since their unregenerated heart resists the gospel truths.

Christ met every demand of the law on behalf of His people, He is the sole cause of justification. Men's belief or any other work, can not enter into a cause of justification.  Justification by faith only means that faith observes and makes known to the mind the justification, it does not cause the justification to happen.




Everyone is a child of God since we were all created in his image, therefore we are all deserving of his unconditional love and compassion. This is what it says in the gospel. Jesus died for all our sins, and had love and compassion without limited, for each and every one of us. If God's love is reserved for those who have come into contact with and accepted the gospel, then it is a very limited and conditional love. Saying that the fact that people do not believe is proof of there condemnation is very faulty logic. There are many who have read the gospel, and do not believe because they found it illogical and unsuitable to there spiritual development.

I refuse to believe that such people who are developing spiritual qualities, such as love, compassion, forgiveness, and all other virtues on there chosen paths could be sent to eternal hell by a petty God. Not only would this be unjust, but it would be against an all compassionate Gods nature to commit such atrocities and cause such needless suffering, to all those who aren't fundamentalist Christians like yourself. How absurd! :lol:


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (02/24/07 12:25 PM)

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605480 - 02/24/07 12:25 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Debunking Every Argument of Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelists By Winston Wu

Table of Contents

Introduction
Defining the terms and type of Christianity described
Christian Fundamentalist theology and beliefs
  • The Christian view of world history
  • Christian Fundamentalist doctrines and precepts

Understanding the mentality and world view of the Christian Fundamentalist
  • Two powerful forces controlling their mind
  • Reason becoming a servant to belief
  • Ego gratification and self-esteem fulfillment
  • The benefits of extreme belief systems
  • The world as a battleground for souls
  • Why deconversion is slow and difficult psychologically and emotionally
  • Knowledge as protection from fear

Help and support for recovering Fundamentalists

Debunking the main arguments
Argument # 1: The Bible is the infallible word of God.
  • Three verses that say the Bible ISN’T God’s word!

Argument # 2: The Bible is inerrant and contains no contradictions. Its 66 books are harmonious and its 40+ writers agree on what they wrote.
  • Use of foreshadowing
  • Literary dialogue
  • Contradictions and discrepancies
  • The “read the Bible in its context” counterargument

Argument # 3: The fulfilled prophecies argument.
  • Imaginary messianic prophecies
  • Nonexistent prophecies
  • Failed, expired, and unfulfilled prophecies

Argument # 4: The Bible is a reliable historical document because it agrees with recorded history and archaeological evidence.
Argument # 5: The Bible is the word of God because it agrees with science and contains scientific facts.
  • False scientific facts in the Bible
  • Insects do NOT have four feet
  • Rabbits do not chew their cud
  • Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt nor dust
  • The bat is not a bird
  • Snails do not melt
  • The Earth is NOT flat!
  • The Earth is not motionless
  • The moon is not a light
  • Our sun is not the same age as the rest of the stars
  • Stars are not little balls of light close to the Earth!
  • Wind is not held in storehouses

Argument # 6: The historicity of Jesus argument.
Argument # 7: The Resurrection of Jesus Christ argument.
  • The arguments for the historicity of the Resurrection
  • The empty tomb argument
  • The “Apostles would not knowingly die for a lie” argument

Argument # 8: The Trilemma Argument - Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?
Argument # 9: The Pascal’s Wager argument.
Argument # 10: The evidence from testimonials/changed lives argument.
  • Related argument: All non-Christians are empty and unhappy, no matter what they have in the world

Argument # 11: The miracles / answered prayers argument.
  • Analysis of the Atheist explanation for miracles
  • Analysis of the Atheist explanation for answered prayers
  • My own theory on how and why prayer works

Argument # 12: Christianity is not a religion, but a personal relationship with God.
Argument # 13: God is good, holy, just, righteous, and fair. We are all sinners and deserve to go to hell.
Argument # 14: All other religions are the work of Satan
Argument # 15: The “taking the Lord’s name in vain” = power argument

Biblical Atrocities committed by God and his followers:
The no-win indefensible issue for Christians
  • Would God kill or order the killing of innocent children?
  • Would God order people to dash infants against rocks and floors?
  • Would God make parents eat the flesh of their children?
  • Would God order pregnant women to be ripped open?
  • Would God kill 70,000 people to punish one man?
  • Would God order his followers to kill each other?
  • Would God approve of a vow to kill one’s own daughter?
  • Would God make people eat feces?!
  • Why would God need the sight of severed heads to calm his anger?
  • Would God order the mass execution of unarmed captives?
  • Would a loving Jesus declare that he would kill innocent children?
  • Why would an all loving God discriminate against the handicapped?
  • Examples of how to ask Christians the no-win questions
  • Quiz: The Death Toll List - God vs. Satan
  • Biblical Atrocities Links
  • Atrocities committed by Christians throughout history


Discrepancies and facts that the church never told you about
  • Disunity among believers filled with the Holy Spirit
  • Evolution of the Salvation doctrine in the four Gospels
  • Why Jesus could not be the messiah of the Old Testament
  • The objective historical consensus view of Jesus
  • Evolution of heaven and hell in the Bible from Zoroastrianism – Good news for the fearful
  • The Creationist arguments against Evolution

Philosophical problems with Salvation and Damnation
Silly tidbit questions
Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist
My Theory - Religions are essentially ways of channeling energy
Conclusion


Appendix A: My Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries
Appendix B: Mystic FaithRada Comments on My Summary Response


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6605541 - 02/24/07 12:44 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.




So you are saying that there is another, equally if not more powerful god that created everyone else?  Do you even read what you type?  You are implying that there is another creator.  If a different god created us then shouldn't we worship that one anyway?  Would he not be upset if we worshiped your god instead? :smirk:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinej3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6605551 - 02/24/07 12:49 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

*points and laughs at fivepointer*

*repents*

You religious types never fail to amuse me :laugh:

If I went back in time and replaced the bible with lord of the rings you'd be trying to save us from the evils of Sauron.

PS:



--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6605563 - 02/24/07 12:53 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Not 100% relevant but nonetheless related:

From God Is Dangerous

Quote:


A Demon pretending to be God
The most powerful "spirit" is going to have most power, and convince most people that it is "good" and to be worshipped. The most-powerful spirit can inspire the writing of the Bible, claim the highest qualities of itself, present itself as an angel of light[2].

It can make us feel that it is right. But unless you resist this, and keep your standards very high, you may be committing a grave mistake to trust this feeling, spirit and concept. Reason and logic have to be stronger, our morals standards need to be high, and not to rely on any such influence or spirit, because we do know not if such beings are good natured or not[2].

Faith may be our weakest point, leading us (as it has in history) to commit evil, and leading us from truth. God could merely be a demon, a jinn, one of Scientologists aliens, a powerful spirit or who knows what, simply deceiving us. It can make it feel right -- as many people before have felt it is right to kill and do evil in the name of God.




--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6605622 - 02/24/07 01:21 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not.  Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown: :nonono:




What reason would God have to like a sinner?  There is no reason.  But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy.  No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ.  Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.




If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.




God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.  Those under wrath are not His children.

As far as the role of faith in salvation.  Since every part of salvation is freely given, this includes the act of believing.  The belief is not a requirement, it is a gift.  People are born condemned, the act of unbelief does not condemn them per se, it exposes that fact that they are already condemned since their unregenerated heart resists the gospel truths.

Christ met every demand of the law on behalf of His people, He is the sole cause of justification. Men's belief or any other work, can not enter into a cause of justification.  Justification by faith only means that faith observes and makes known to the mind the justification, it does not cause the justification to happen.




Everyone is a child of God since we were all created in his image, therefore we are all deserving of his unconditional love and compassion. This is what it says in the gospel. Jesus died for all our sins, and had love and compassion without limited, for each and every one of us. If God's love is reserved for those who have come into contact with and accepted the gospel, then it is a very limited and conditional love. Saying that the fact that people do not believe is proof of there condemnation is very faulty logic. There are many who have read the gospel, and do not believe because they found it illogical and unsuitable to there spiritual development.

I refuse to believe that such people who are developing spiritual qualities, such as love, compassion, forgiveness, and all other virtues on there chosen paths could be sent to eternal hell by a petty God. Not only would this be unjust, but it would be against an all compassionate Gods nature to commit such atrocities and cause such needless suffering, to all those who aren't fundamentalist Christians like yourself. How absurd! :lol:




You say we are all deserving of unconditional love.  The Bible says we are all deserving of wrath.

The term "child of God" always refers to believers only.

Jesus called those who opposed Him children of the devil.

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.  Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those who are children are that way not because of creation, but by faith in Jesus Christ:
Ga 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus died for the elect, all those that will inherit eternal life, all those who believe.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6605626 - 02/24/07 01:23 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.




So you are saying that there is another, equally if not more powerful god that created everyone else?  Do you even read what you type?  You are implying that there is another creator.  If a different god created us then shouldn't we worship that one anyway?  Would he not be upset if we worshiped your god instead? :smirk:




I said nothing of the sort.  All are not "children of God" merely because of creation.  That term only applies to the converted.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6605641 - 02/24/07 01:30 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.




Hundreds of millions of people have never heard any gospel their entire life. If someone lives and dies and never heard any gospel before they died: they will not be saved. God teaches each and every one of His people the gospel and converts them.




Wow... so you are saying that god actually creates some people and then chooses not to show them the gospel and they go to hell because of it?




God has created vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. No one is owed mercy.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605755 - 02/24/07 02:07 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

You mean the Christians brand of mercy, the mercy in which can only be obtained by studying the sematincs of scripture, and coming up with a 1000 different opinions on what it supposedly stands for.

How about bringing some rational prof to your claims, instead of just piping off the same condesending propaganda, that promotes narrow minded brainwashing.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6605906 - 02/24/07 03:00 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
*points and laughs at fivepointer*

*repents*

You religious types never fail to amuse me :laugh:

If I went back in time and replaced the bible with lord of the rings you'd be trying to save us from the evils of Sauron.

PS:






Awesome.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6605956 - 02/24/07 03:19 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I said nothing of the sort. All are not "children of God" merely because of creation. That term only applies to the converted.




But according to you, those who convert aren't guaranteed mercy.  You stated that only those that god decides to save are shown unconditional love, regardless of their beliefs/deeds.  How can god not save all of his children?  The converted are his children, yet he still does not show all of them mercy....:confused:

It seems as though you are pulling this out of your ass as you go along.  :shrug:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6605962 - 02/24/07 03:21 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

He means that Gods children are the only ones that are going to be saved, by converting to the gospel. That God intentionally created persons to be damned, and persons to be saved. Basically, that God is a super-asshole who only cares for a select few who are willing to swallow his dogmatic, nonsensical bullshit. Sound about right? :lol:


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6605995 - 02/24/07 03:34 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?:rolleyes:




You are correct.  Even though the man who "radiates love everywhere" may seem really good by the standards of men, by God's standards he falls way short.




So God's standards and wishes are for us to believe the gospel... if we do so, we're even free to kill because it doesn't matter... believeng in the gospel saves us.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6606003 - 02/24/07 03:37 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
I said nothing of the sort. All are not "children of God" merely because of creation. That term only applies to the converted.




But according to you, those who convert aren't guaranteed mercy.  You stated that only those that god decides to save are shown unconditional love, regardless of their beliefs/deeds.  How can god not save all of his children?  The converted are his children, yet he still does not show all of them mercy....:confused:

It seems as though you are pulling this out of your ass as you go along.  :shrug:




1. The converted are absolutely guaranteed mercy.
2. I never said people are saved regardless of their beliefs.  I said the gospel is revealed to His people and they believe it.
3. Try to read my postings carefully before you make false statements about what I said.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6606022 - 02/24/07 03:45 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?:rolleyes:




You are correct.  Even though the man who "radiates love everywhere" may seem really good by the standards of men, by God's standards he falls way short.




So God's standards and wishes are for us to believe the gospel... if we do so, we're even free to kill because it doesn't matter... believeng in the gospel saves us.




The grace of God by the work of Christ, who imputes His perfect righteousness, is what saves a sinner.  The belief does not save, Christ saves.  Scripture declares salvation is by free grace, it also warns against those who would use grace as a license for sin.  Those born of God are given new natures and can not stay in sin.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6606068 - 02/24/07 04:01 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

If a priest who abused children were to become saved, and believe the real gospel in the future, then any and all sin is forgiven.




Quote:

The belief does not save, Christ saves. Scripture declares salvation is by free grace, it also warns against those who would use grace as a license for sin. Those born of God are given new natures and can not stay in sin.





Moderator Edit: Removed flame.

Edited by fireworks_god (02/24/07 05:44 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
    #6606073 - 02/24/07 04:03 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

:thumbup:
Exactly my point :smile:

Moderator edit: Removed quotation of other user containing flames.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Edited by fireworks_god (02/24/07 05:45 PM)

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
    #6606128 - 02/24/07 04:26 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
Quote:

If a priest who abused children were to become saved, and believe the real gospel in the future, then any and all sin is forgiven.




Quote:

The belief does not save, Christ saves. Scripture declares salvation is by free grace, it also warns against those who would use grace as a license for sin. Those born of God are given new natures and can not stay in sin.




Just as contradicting as the scriptures he argues, don't waste your time with this moron.




You can disagree with me, but calling me a moron is not productive to discussion, and is personally hurtful.

I have explained the role of faith in justification earlier in this thread.

The idea that those under grace are now free to kill and commit great sins with impunity is opposed to the gospel. While it is true that any and all sin is forgiven, and all punishment for sin has been satisfied, Christians do not use grace as a license to sin. While under total liberty from the law, Christians obey not out of fear, but out of gratefulness and thanksgiving.

Roman 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life...

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6606300 - 02/24/07 05:38 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You can disagree with me, but calling me a moron is not productive to discussion,




Precisely. As I've already stated in this thread, if one wishes to discuss the ideas that fivepointer has presented in his own thread, then feel free to contribute to the discussion in a manner consistent with the forum rules and guidelines. Flames and statements regarding the nature of the person presenting the ideas lies at odds with the purpose and intention of this forum.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6606391 - 02/24/07 06:17 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

My friend isnt allowed into heaven because he's gay :frown: Poor bastard.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: mr_kite]
    #6606400 - 02/24/07 06:21 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
My friend isnt allowed into heaven because he's gay :frown: Poor bastard.




Wait! He could be saved if he believes in the gospel :rolleyes:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6606412 - 02/24/07 06:23 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Nope, it doesnt matter what he believes, he's going to hell; this God doesnt like buggery (even though He seems to have created it in most species of animal)


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: mr_kite]
    #6606426 - 02/24/07 06:31 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Well you know, you might also go to hell... just like most of us here on this planet since Christianity doesn't agree with sex before getting married... hmmm I wonder... heaven whill be a pretty empty space considering that.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: mr_kite]
    #6606433 - 02/24/07 06:35 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Apparently he's automatically in!

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.




Quote:

Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation




If the belief of the gospel does not merit salvation, then it is not a prerequisite.  Also, you just stated that salvation and god's infinite love are unconditional.  If you truly believe what you have written, then the logical paradox is applicable. :smirk:

Here it is again.  Mull it over for a while, please.

Quote:

SoY said:

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If your God condemns good people to hell simply because they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of unconditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compassionate, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?




Nicely said! :smile: :wink: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"God" gave us (some of us anyways) brains that can reason and utilize logic. He has doomed us to an eternity of suffering because he knew how each one of us would think before he created us. He made sure that we would question blind faith and instead simply observe nature to arrive at a more reasonable interpretation of reality. He has forseen all of this, for he is all-knowing, but has still condemned us to hell.

Fivepointer, you really need to think about this paradox. This logic is your true salvation. I am afraid that if this does not make sense to you, then you will never be able to realize truth. By the way, do you know what unconditional means? Come on man, this is an easy one too! JUST THINK ABOUT IT!





--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6606494 - 02/24/07 07:00 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

If the belief of the gospel does not merit salvation, then it is not a prerequisite. Also, you just stated that salvation and god's infinite love are unconditional. If you truly believe what you have written, then the logical paradox is applicable. :smirk:

Here it is again. Mull it over for a while, please.


It is not a logical paradox.  Grace is entirely apart from human merits or conditions.  However the EVIDENCE of the grace is an immediate belief of the gospel at conversion.  Belief is the means by which grace is observed.  The faith itself is not a precondition, the faith is an EVIDENCE of the grace that has ALREADY been given.  God ordains the means by which the elect can observe their justification by faith.

The term justification by faith does not mean that faith is the condition that is satisfied thereby meriting salvation.  It means that in the mind of the believer he has been justified, faith observing this fact, by the imputed righteousness of Christ, apart from any merits or works.

If faith were a precondition, that would turn grace into a reward for a work (the act of faith being the work).  Since only perfection can be acceptable to an infinitely righteous God, then the act of faith must be PERFECTLY done, which is impossible.

Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.  If faith be a condition, then love is not unconditional, and it ceases to be love.  The doctrine of justification is one of the most important doctrines of the faith.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6606635 - 02/24/07 07:53 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.




Do you even understand what you are saying!?

That means that you don't even need to believe to be saved. :smirk:
No way is this guy for real.....


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6606735 - 02/24/07 08:26 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation




Quote:

fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.




Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.




Please explain how it is not a logical paradox.  God's love is unconditional, right?  You said so yourself (see above).  In addition you stated that one doesn't need to believe in the gospel to receive salvation and that it is in no way dependent on one's actions (also above).  This means that salvation is deserved by all and that it is impossible for an omipotent, gracious, merciful, ever-loving *god* to ever condemn anyone to hell.


Tighten the valve on your mindless spewing a tidge and think about the contradictions here mate!

You obviously cannot comprehend what you are saying because you are continuously saying completely contradictory things!  You are blatantly ignoring my attempts to help you fix the flaw in your logic.  I am dumbfounded by your lack of reasoning.  :shake:


*edited for spelling


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

Edited by SoY (02/24/07 08:30 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6606905 - 02/24/07 09:49 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.




Do you even understand what you are saying!?

That means that you don't even need to believe to be saved. :smirk:
No way is this guy for real.....



Actually, what he's saying is that God made us as automatons who are programmed to either believe or not believe, and the ones who are programmed to believe will be saved.  Kind of like a kid who gets a bunch of G.I. Joe action figures to play with some and strap others to firecrackers.


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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6606914 - 02/24/07 09:53 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

This thread makes me lol.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6607342 - 02/25/07 12:24 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Only believers will be saved, but belief is not a requisite to being saved. Why don't you people get it?

Seriously though, I don't know if fivepointer is a puppet or what, but he certainly likes to quote scripture, so I've got a few juicy morsels for him.

First two show that God wants everyone to go to heaven.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But these next four show that God wants some to go to hell.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

So whether you believe that all are saved, or that some are meant to go to hell, your beliefs are in contradiction with the word of God.

In fact, even if you managed to hold those two irreconcilible beliefs simultaneously, your beliefs would still go against God's word, because God's word is contradictory to itself.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6607446 - 02/25/07 01:09 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.




Do you even understand what you are saying!?

That means that you don't even need to believe to be saved. :smirk:
No way is this guy for real.....




I have explained it as clearly as I can, you just can't grasp an clear explanation.  Every one who is saved believes the gospel, (the means by which they know they are saved), even the faith is a gift.  There are no prerequists to meet for salvation, however this does not mean people are saved outside of the means that God provides for His people to enjoy the salvation He has wrought out for them.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6607464 - 02/25/07 01:19 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:

Please explain how it is not a logical paradox.  God's love is unconditional, right?  You said so yourself (see above).  In addition you stated that one doesn't need to believe in the gospel to receive salvation and that it is in no way dependent on one's actions (also above).  This means that salvation is deserved by all and that it is impossible for an omipotent, gracious, merciful, ever-loving *god* to ever condemn anyone to hell.

Tighten the valve on your mindless spewing a tidge and think about the contradictions here mate!

You obviously cannot comprehend what you are saying because you are continuously saying completely contradictory things!  You are blatantly ignoring my attempts to help you fix the flaw in your logic.  I am dumbfounded by your lack of reasoning.  :shake:

*edited for spelling




"This means that salvation is deserved by all and that it is impossible for an omipotent, gracious, merciful, ever-loving *god* to ever condemn anyone to hell."

You have made a huge jump here.  Love in unconditional FOR HIS PEOPLE, not those who are damned.  God HATES the damned.  You are missing the fact that God is just, righteous and holy, and sin earns wrath.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6607467 - 02/25/07 01:19 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

still going......lol


--------------------
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  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Life_of_a_Cell]
    #6607564 - 02/25/07 01:50 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

"First two show that God wants everyone to go to heaven."

These verses do not show God wants everyone to go to heaven. You have taken them out of context.

1 Tim 2:4-7
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

"All men" does not mean all men without exception, it means all types. "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." This is saying the gospel, in the fullness of God's plan, will go out to all peoples of the world, Jew and Gentile. It was a great change that the gospel would go out to the Gentiles.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who are the "us-ward"?, the believers. All those who are predestinated will come to repentance. This is why He hasn't come back yet. He must save each and every one of His elect, none of them will perish. Once the last one is brought in He will return.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6607706 - 02/25/07 03:16 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

OK you know how to recite scripture, and according to scripture, X and X and X will happen and so on and so forth............

But what makes you think all this scripture logic is all true, that all these messages your resiting are without a doubt speaking the truth. Can you prove any of this.

Cause according to another book there is no (Christ) named Jesus and theirs a god named Allah. And they seemed pretty convinced their story is true.

What makes you think your right over them, cause you never gave a thought to the possibility, and cause it wasn't what your indoctrinated with so it must have been false, and their going to hell, cause obviously they were screwed with false indoctrination.

Anyways I know the one track mind can't see other possible twists on reality, no regurgitation of the word is necessary for quick rebuke btw

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Offlinezero9ine
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6607729 - 02/25/07 03:43 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Dude, please study theology and do some contextual scripture study before posting this kind of stuff. There are some serious problematic issues with what your are saying, even though its the american super westernized gospel perpetuated by the uneducated and overly emotional. Honestly, if you want, i can show you how there may very well be no hell at all, and have more scriptural, cultural, and historical bearing on what i'm saying than you will. Does that mean its true? not necessarily, but neither does that mean i'm wrong. In fact, it means i'm more probable to be right.

some basic problematic things for you to look at.

did jesus and paul have differing theologies on hell? Look how jesus spoke to the jews of his day and incorporated what we call "hell" (actually 3 different greek words that had important meanings that we made into one word called Hell) into his parables and once bluntly making similar reference when Jesus talked to his disciples and i believe pharisees were present, about some people dying b/c a tower fell down, and he said, "do you think those people were the worst sinners in Jerusalem? I tell you, "no, they were not", but unless you repent, you will likewise perish."

Since you seem to know about hell and God's judgement, thing back on Jesus' words about it all. Now, look at Paul, who preached to the gentiles, what did he say about hell? When it came to salvation with him, it was hardly ever, if ever, anything more than "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved".

So, wait a minute....Jesus talks about salvation and it sounds like only a few are going to be saved and there's going to be a real shitty outcome for the ones trying to make it, but weren't as well prepared as the others, even if their shortcomings were their own fault. And then you have paul, speaking to the gentiles, and hell isn't an issue here, nor a motivator for salvation. Did the fact that Jesus was talking to the Jews have anything to do with the punishments he was throwing into his parables? Have you looked at the evolution of the doctrine of hell and how it was formed? I honestly believe that it is much harder to be an abomination in God's eyes than it is to be accepted by him. Salvation is easier than people make it out to be, God does transcend all humanity and "wills for all to be saved."

I am a christian. not the average one, i guess. but i want to know what i believe and why, and if its even worth believing. And i dont care anymore for subjective interpretation coming from fear or feelings. There's so much in the new testament within its context, but that requires and understanding of that culture, the setting, the condition of each of the local churches in the letters, mythology used, the meanings behind phrases used by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and any other authors. This my friend is hard work, and everything you were taught and do believe, has been because of someone elses hard work in these areas of scriptures, but people today just ignore that fact and usually dont' know that it took a world of trouble to arrive at the ideas we have today about the bible and what it teaches. There are many important issues and questions like this that can change your whole outlook in the very instant of a new understanding.

also, why the hell is 3rd John even in the bible? Anyone???? Read it sometime, and tell me if anyone gets anything out of this book. nothing doctinal. It sounds like john saying, "i don't like this person, so don't listen to him!".

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Offlinezero9ine
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
    #6607737 - 02/25/07 03:50 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

errr, christianity has way more bearings than islam. in fact, lol, christianity is resposible for their rise at all, and also the Jews. I believe the jews would have died out for sure if it wasn't for christianity. That was a time where defining came in to beliefs like never before. plus, look at the material used. and never take the bible at face value, there are many other factors that have to be constantly considered. The main one is context, and 2000yrs of ever changing cultures and bam, you have a world of misinterpretations and beliefs about Jesus and the bible. I like the fact that there are other religions who are so opposed to christianity. i really don't get along with 98% of christians i've ever met. I've always personally wanted another religion to spring up and rival christianity and preach that if people didn't believe their doctrine, they would go to hell, and it is worse than the christian's perception of hell. What would these poor evangelical bible thumpers do them? i think much of them would convert.

"Christians don't know love, they know fear."-NOFX

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: zero9ine]
    #6607754 - 02/25/07 04:19 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

His is the most common attitude when regarding salvation and hell, I never got the feeling in the new or old testament that grace and salvation was an easy affair.

But who knows what they meant with these writings. Cause as you pointed out interpretation was lost due to language barriors, also their were other gosphels floating around that were excluded

Really this stuff is ridiculus as to the harsh judgement of sin, Noahs ark, and Adam and Eve are far out their IMO.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: zero9ine]
    #6607763 - 02/25/07 04:40 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

zero9ine said:
errr, christianity has way more bearings than islam. in fact,





how do you know this for certain, one dogma says one thing, the other says another,

Quote:

lol, christianity is resposible for their rise at all, and also the Jews.




actually the Christian religion is based off the old Torah of Jewish scripture

Quote:

I believe the Jews would have died out for sure if it wasn't for christianity.




Jews came up with the idea of Christ originally, they didn't all accept Christianity or Jesus being Christ, I don't know exactly what barring Christianity had on the Jewish faith, or the Jewish faith on Christianity, I think both corrupted eaches intent.


Quote:

That was a time where defining came in to beliefs like never before. plus, look at the material used. and never take the bible at face value, there are many other factors that have to be constantly considered. The main one is context, and 2000yrs of ever changing cultures and bam, you have a world of misinterpretations and beliefs about Jesus and the bible.




Yeah mysticism was more popular back then, such as miracles, and magical creatures, cause heresy was the word of mouth, methods of reporting events were very limited and so the message was often scewed


Quote:

I like the fact that there are other religions who are so opposed to Christianity. i really don't get along with 98% of Christians I've ever met. I've always personally wanted another religion to spring up and rival Christianity and preach that if people didn't believe their doctrine, they would go to hell, and it is worse than the Christian's perception of hell. What would these poor evangelical bible thumpers do them? i think much of them would convert.




Its only natural that their are other view points that contend against Christian views,

Quote:

"Christians don't know love, they know fear."-NOFX




Its individual emphasis and interpretation

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Offlinej3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
    #6607769 - 02/25/07 04:51 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

So fivepointer, you're saying that I could break into your house, rape your family repeatedly before slitting the throats of everyone you ever loved and I go to jail. In prison I find god and I truly believe, I preach the bible and I repent for my sins, lo and behold I get to sit on gods lap. Your theories are irrational and severely contradictory, the mere concept that God who emanates love apparently HATES some of the things he created. Plus here is another thought, we all come from adam and eve right? Our ancestors, in case you had forgotten, were kicked out of eden. Why would he want to forgive some of us and not all having kicked us out in the first place? I suppose dinosaur fossils are just there to "test your faith".

You spend too much time trying to force your beliefs on others, you want to convert us to "see the light" I personally don't want to be saved, especially not by you, I don't believe in god, not your god anyway. If you are so intent on converting us why not allow us the opportunity to show YOU the error of your ways, you obviously aren't considering that you might be wrong. Do me a favour and read this: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

The bible is full of holes and by now probably more corrupt than a worldwide game of chinese whispers yet you are obviously too blind to see that.

A taste of your own medicine since all you seem to be good at is quoting scripture, I can do that too, I can even point out the idiocy, and this is but a fraction of its full wealth:

Quote:

How many sons did Abraham have?

Abraham had only one son.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, ... his only begotten son.

Genesis 22:2
Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering.

Abraham had more than one son.

Genesis 16:15
And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.

Genesis 21:2-3
For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac.

Genesis 25:1-2
Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

Galatians 4:22
Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-woman, and the other by a free woman.


Does God want some to go to hell?

God wants everyone to go to heaven.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants some to go to hell.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

Did Jesus tell his disciples everything?

Jesus told his disciples everything.

John 15:15
For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

There were some things that Jesus didn't tell them.

John 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

How long does God's anger last?

God's anger lasts for just a moment.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment.

Jeremiah 3:12
I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.

Micah 7:18
He retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy.

God's anger lasts a long time.

Numbers 32:13
And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness for forty years.

Jeremiah 17:4
Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

Malachi 1:4
The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Matthew 25:41
Depart from me, he cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

When did Jesus ascend into heaven?

On the day of his resurrection.

Luke 24:1-51
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
...
And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ...
And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus....
...
And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together....
...
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
...
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Mark 16:9-19
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
...
After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
...
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
...
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

At least eight days after his resurrection.

John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Many days after his resurrection.

Acts 13:31
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Forty days after his resurrection.

Acts 1:2-3, 9
Until the day in which he was taken up ... he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
...
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Should we believe everything?

We should believe everything.

1 Corinthians 13:7
Believeth all things.

We should believe only when the evidence warrants belief.

Proverbs 14:15
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.




Your own faith says I shouldn't believe what you say until you give me evidence and so far all you've done is preach hollow theories at us. PROVE TO ME THAT GOD IS REAL without the use of the bible, or smite me for being a non believer.

Sorry for the rant but how can you expects us to consider what you are saying when you won't even consider what we say, that you MIGHT be wrong.

ps: GOD HATES SHRIMP!!!

Quote:

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.




pinch the tail, suck the head, burn in hell.

Why does god issue infinte punishment for finite crimes?


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6607771 - 02/25/07 04:54 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

In my gospel there is the concentration on love and unification, not hate and separation.
My gospel is about understanding and forgiveness, not ignorance and damnation.
My G*D is a LOVER not a HATER.
And I trust in that and have no doubt.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinej3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6607772 - 02/25/07 04:57 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

And if you wont do any of that then at least watch this and get back to us:

The Pharmacratic Inquisition

I believe there could be a god, but nothing the way the bible portrays such a god. Either we are all god or there is no god.


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: zero9ine]
    #6607975 - 02/25/07 08:19 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

zero9in, sounds like you are saying ther are two gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. There is only one gospel throughout any time period. The spiritual principles Jesus expressed to the Jews applies to others as well. Paul (who wrote as moved by the Holy Spirit) spoke about punishment and wrath throughout his epistles.

You assert that God "wills for all to be saved.". If you mean all of the elect I agree, I you mean all without exception I flatly disagree with your damnable Arminian theology.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6608001 - 02/25/07 08:37 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
And if you wont do any of that then at least watch this and get back to us:

The Pharmacratic Inquisition

I believe there could be a god, but nothing the way the bible portrays such a god. Either we are all god or there is no god.




I'm not devoting 3 hours and 23 minutes to this video. I watched a few minutes and they state Christianity is based on drugs and shamanism. What nonsense.

Just for the record I am totally opposed to the War on Drugs, it is destructive to liberty and creates a totalitarian State. Passing laws to make people "moral" does nothing to changes men's hearts. The State and religion should be in complete separation from each other.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6608018 - 02/25/07 08:44 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

j3cykl,

Well what can I say to your post. You twist the scriptures to your own destruction. I'm not devoting all my time on refuting your attempts at discrediting scripture. You have it all figured out, end of discussion.

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Offlinej3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608084 - 02/25/07 09:19 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

So by pointing out inconsistencies and problems with the scriptures i'm apparently twisting the scriptures to my destruction? Funny that, weak argument dude. You seemed quite happy to devote more hours trying to convert us to your faith but you won't even for a second consider that you might be wrong? You expose your own ignorance by saying this.

Quote:

I'm not devoting 3 hours and 23 minutes to this video. I watched a few minutes and they state Christianity is based on drugs and shamanism. What nonsense.




If you had actually watched the video you'd find out alot more, jesus wasn't the only crucified saint... The rest of that video wasn't about christianity being based on drugs and shamanism but you won't open that narrow crack in your world perspective 3 hours wide to take in another consideration that could be right. Christianity has roots in sun and star worship and at the end of the day thats all it is.

Don't give up just because of me, give me something real, i'm willing to listen to what you have to say or points that you have to make but you are totally unwilling to compromise or change to accomodate what i'm saying. Just another ignorant fundamentalist.


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Offlinej3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6608093 - 02/25/07 09:24 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Are you so terrified that something other than what you believe in could be right?


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608110 - 02/25/07 09:32 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said: 
Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation


fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

fivepointer said:

Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

fivepointer said:
There are no prerequisites to meet for salvation, however this does not mean people are saved outside of the means that God provides for His people to enjoy the salvation He has wrought out for them.




Okay read the last one again.  If there are no prerequisites then salvation is given to all.  You severely contradicted yourself in the same sentence.  Do not tell me that I am not reading your posts clearly because I am.  You are unable to realize basic flaws in your arguments and are completely lacking in logic.  You dodge the questions that are inconvenient and totally ignore your own contradictions.  What a pitiful attempt at an intelligent discussion....:thumbdown:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6608118 - 02/25/07 09:37 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Christianity has roots in sun and star worship and at the end of the day thats all it is.



That's all it is?  Sure, don't give any credit to Neoplatonism, Judaism, the mystical experiences of people like Paul or St. Augustine, or Jesus himself.  Sure, it's all sun and star worship.  :rolleyes:

Sorry to be sarcastic, but such excessive reductionism annoys me.


--------------------

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OfflineMycomyth
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6608126 - 02/25/07 09:41 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
Are you so terrified that something other than what you believe in could be right?




That's the problem I've noticed with all fundamentalists, of any religion. Some even believe so strongly (blindly?) that they would carry out the most heinous crimes against their fellow humans in the name of their god.

Messiah has pointed to the door......
Myc


--------------------
Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6608132 - 02/25/07 09:45 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Understood and apologised, you sound like you'd be interested in temporal lobe epilepsy; the theory that religious experience could be a survival instinct and that there is a portion of our brain dedicated to religious experience.


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6608215 - 02/25/07 10:18 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said: 
Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation


fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

fivepointer said:

Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

fivepointer said:
There are no prerequisites to meet for salvation, however this does not mean people are saved outside of the means that God provides for His people to enjoy the salvation He has wrought out for them.




Okay read the last one again.  If there are no prerequisites then salvation is given to all.  You severely contradicted yourself in the same sentence.  Do not tell me that I am not reading your posts clearly because I am.  You are unable to realize basic flaws in your arguments and are completely lacking in logic.  You dodge the questions that are inconvenient and totally ignore your own contradictions.  What a pitiful attempt at an intelligent discussion....:thumbdown:




Your the one with logic that doesn't follow.  How do you jump to say if no prerequestites then it must be given to all.  I never said that, your the one who has come up with it. It is NOT given to all.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608235 - 02/25/07 10:25 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Must be a child of God = prerequisite


--------------------

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608344 - 02/25/07 11:10 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I just don't understand how someone can march around trying to get others to turn to their faith when they are so unwilling to consider another perspective.


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6608352 - 02/25/07 11:12 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Must be a child of God = prerequisite




The term "child of God", as I use it, refers to someone who has been converted.

Like I have said numerous times NO HUMAN ACTION is a prerequisite. What is prerequisite is that God has elected someone to salvation. Election is prior to the creation, and prior to good or bad acts. Being a child of God is not a prerequisite, since becoming a child of God is a result of the election. God uses means to cause conversion, which causes someone to become a child of God. To say "Must be a child of God = prerequisite " is putting the cart before the horse and overturns the gospel truth of free grace justification.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6608357 - 02/25/07 11:13 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
I just don't understand how someone can march around trying to get others to turn to their faith when they are so unwilling to consider another perspective.




I am not willing to consider another perspective. I'm a believer, not an agnostic. I present doctrines, those with ears will hear it.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608404 - 02/25/07 11:36 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

How can someone believe that one's deeds while in this earthly incarnation don't matter, for his existence in heaven or hell ?
Every reasoning upon this will lead to paradoxes and meaningless (irrelevant) conclusion about our life on earth.

I think not that it is the Christian god fivefpointer refers to.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608429 - 02/25/07 11:47 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Like I have said numerous times NO HUMAN ACTION is a prerequisite.



Except conversion.


--------------------

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608438 - 02/25/07 11:51 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

I am not willing to consider another perspective.




Then you should probably just shut the hell up.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6608458 - 02/25/07 11:59 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Probably?


--------------------

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6608492 - 02/25/07 12:11 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

I am not willing to consider another perspective.




Then you should probably just shut the hell up.




I've pondered your suggestion, answer: no

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608508 - 02/25/07 12:16 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

What exactly do you hope to accomplish here? If people are predestined to be God's elect, then nothing you do here will have any impact on who is saved. Whoever is meant to be saved will be saved regardless of the trouble you stir up here.


--------------------

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6608541 - 02/25/07 12:30 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The idea of the special elect bears an unholy resemblance to Hitler and the Nazi regime. The chosen (Aryan race) were the only ones fit to inherit the earth. The rest could go to hell.(Hitler himself may have well found his justification of persecution of the Jews in the Bible and the story of Judas' supposed betrayal of Christ) This all seems fairly innocent here as far as the fundamentalists go until they gain some real power. Then the next step is to do gods work and send the unbelievers to hell themselves. This delusional thinking has happened too often in history. IMO it shows a true lack of personal/spiritual evolution to be thinking in this fasion. The Good News is we  can ignore his way of belief if we so choose. Lets just hope he never really gets his hands on some power and just stays in the realm of posting at the Shroomery.:mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6608574 - 02/25/07 12:39 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The idea of the special elect bears an unholy resemblance to Hitler and the Nazi regime. The chosen (Aryan race) were the only ones fit to inherit the earth. The rest could go to hell.(Hitler himself may have well found his justification of persecution of the Jews in the Bible and the story of Judas' supposed betrayal of Christ) This all seems fairly innocent here as far as the fundamentalists go until they gain some real power. Then the next step is to do gods work and send the unbelievers to hell themselves. This delusional thinking has happened too often in history. IMO it shows a true lack of personal/spiritual evolution to be thinking in this fasion. The Good News is we  can ignore his way of belief if we so choose. Lets just hope he never really gets his hands on some power and just stays in the realm of posting at the Shroomery.:mushroom2:




Icelander, wow, you have really figured me out and my secret motives.  I want to become supreme ruler and throw people into hell.

Comic relief at the Shroomery.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6608584 - 02/25/07 12:44 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
What exactly do you hope to accomplish here? If people are predestined to be God's elect, then nothing you do here will have any impact on who is saved. Whoever is meant to be saved will be saved regardless of the trouble you stir up here.




Using this logic no one should evangelize. God uses means to bring His elect into faith, and one of those means is evangelization. Someone reading my posts may be elect and God may use the evangelization to bring the person to conversion.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608591 - 02/25/07 12:47 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Using this logic no one should evangelize.



Actually, I'm using your logic(or following it to its natural conclusion), since I don't believe in this bullshit about "God's elect." And yes, please stop evangelizing. You're no good at it.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6608592 - 02/25/07 12:47 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I figured you out long before you ever started posting here. Remember, I used to belong to your little clique. Then one day I had the wonderful realization that the Universe really is Love and we, each and every one of us (including you dear man) are an integral part of that Love.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6608610 - 02/25/07 12:57 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Like I have said numerous times NO HUMAN ACTION is a prerequisite.






Except conversion.




Exactly.  I don't think he understands this.....:smirk:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6609422 - 02/25/07 05:07 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

I want to become supreme ruler and throw people into hell.





I'd say you've already put yourself into that role via this thread.

Seriously, Fivepointer, has logic completely abandoned you?

I don't know how you can happily live the way you do: forcing your fundamentalist point of view on others; condemning others to hell; ignoring reason. It must suck living in fear.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6609518 - 02/25/07 05:30 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Later the world of psychedelics was explored with about 80 psilocybin 6g trips, salvia, dxm, ghb, nutmeg, alcohol, the usual suspects.

Everyone knows that God hates drugs.

You're going to hell. Sorry. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
    #6609540 - 02/25/07 05:35 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

:rofl: :rofl::rofl:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
    #6609587 - 02/25/07 05:47 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Mr 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Lu 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6609612 - 02/25/07 05:58 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

John 8:7

...and Jesus said: He among you without sin, cast the first stone...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineflower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
    #6609744 - 02/25/07 06:30 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Fivepointer, you really should stop ignoring that link (www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com) and start doing a little bit of reading.

Before you go telling the world that they're going to hell, you should go see the real hell - a place in Israel called Gehenna. This is the word that was translated incorrectly translated into hell.

The better we get at translating the original languages of the bible, the less you see the world hell at all. The most up to date and correctly translated bibles don't even use the word hell anymore, so maybe you should put down the KJV and take a look at where your beliefs come from.

And while your at it, do a search on King James. He was quite the christian.


--------------------
Today while walking up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd stay away

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
    #6609771 - 02/25/07 06:36 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I have already examined the site. I have refuted its false teachings in other threads on this board.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6609794 - 02/25/07 06:42 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

I want to become supreme ruler and throw people into hell.





I'd say you've already put yourself into that role via this thread.

Seriously, Fivepointer, has logic completely abandoned you?

I don't know how you can happily live the way you do: forcing your fundamentalist point of view on others; condemning others to hell; ignoring reason. It must suck living in fear.




I don't condemn anyone to hell. You don't like the message so you slander the messenger. I don't live in fear I have been justified by Christ's imputed righteousness.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
    #6609806 - 02/25/07 06:45 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

He is right you know. All the fire and brimstone in Gehenna is just to keep warm during cold spells.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6610001 - 02/25/07 07:36 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

I have already examined the site. I have refuted its false teachings in other threads on this board.




You do know that the Bible was not written to be interpreted literally, right? And why is that you label all outside sources (outside of the Bible) of information as false teachings? If anything, I would say that you are the false teacher, sir.

By the way, how old are you?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6610057 - 02/25/07 07:46 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

He's 40 or something... :rolleyes:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6610666 - 02/25/07 09:37 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I like how you use the phrase "false teachings" to describe virtually every opinion known to man. :lol:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
    #6611039 - 02/25/07 11:17 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I think we should all just accept the idea that according to fivepointer's facts we're all going to burn in hell for all eternity as unforgivable irredeemably lost heathenistic souls. His arguments have gone from amusing to questionable to hilarious to offensive and it's quite clear that this discussion is probably going nowhere.

He won't get what he wants, which is very unfortunate for us, and we won't get what we want, which is very unfortunate for us.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6611200 - 02/26/07 12:31 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I'm not going to lay any judgement or anything but how old are you?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6611279 - 02/26/07 12:53 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.





I was raised in a non-religious house. When I was little my mother was into Spiritualism with automatic writing and seances. Then she was into the Ruth Montgomery / Edgar Cayce prophesies. My siblings got into reincarnation eastern religion. Since I was small I went along with these things. from the time I was 10 to my conversion at age 35, which was 7 years ago, I renounced all religion and became 100% agnostic Prior to conversion I considered Christians to be deluded and foolish people, as well as all other religious people. Science was my rule, nothing else.

Later the world of psychedelics was explored with about 80 psilocybin 6g trips, salvia, dxm, ghb, nutmeg, alcohol, the usual suspects. What I got out of them was the possibility that maybe there is something more than just physical existence.

People were I work said I had to "accept Jesus". Asking questions of them never got me a straight answer. So I set on my quest to understand Christianity. After several months went by I eventually "accepted", and tried to be a Christian. According to them I was now "saved". I wasn't converted until 6 months later, so for six months I was a false professor, little did I know.

So I tried to be a Christian the best I could. I still didn't understand it really. Traveled to the bookstores hoping to find a book that would explain it, no luck. Listened to TV and radio preachers, this didn't do anything for me. I now know anyone on TV or radio is 99% of the time a false teacher. I was given a Bible but still didn't "get it". I tried to follow what I read the best I could. Something strange was happening, the more I tried to be a "Christian" the more I was going in the opposite direction. The more I tried to love my neighbor, the more I realized I actually despise and hate my neighbor. Eventually over about six weeks this got progressively worse. I kept thinking how could I be a "Christian" and have such wicked thoughts that just seemed to magnify. I become a totally lost ball of ruin. I was a lost wretch, and if I were to be sent to hell it would be what I deserved. At the time I didn't know what was happening to me. This was Holy Spirit conviction, I was being showed who I was, and who Christ was and what His righteousness is. From that point on I knew I was saved. It was like a weight was taken off me. From that point on I "got it", and when I read the Bible I understood what it was saying, like it was a whole new book.




He's 42.

I was rather surprised.

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Offlinej3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6611607 - 02/26/07 05:35 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

fivepointer, you are the weakest link. Or the missing one, I can't decide. It would certainly appear you have outstayed your welcome in a public place, LOL!!! Enjoy Hell.


--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6612332 - 02/26/07 12:16 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Well we're dipping back towards personalisms again. The fact is I don't believe this poster knows what he's talking about. I have no fear around his dire predictions. Using the brain I have been given I have, through personal experience and intuition and logic, have come up with a personal belief system which I am willing to stand behind and take any consequences that living it out may bring. The original poster will go away for good once he no longer gets responses to his posts. I know this is hard to do fellow posters but it's really the way if you want an end to this kind of thing.:mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6612426 - 02/26/07 12:51 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I am not looking for an end, but rather trying to help him understand the flaws in his logic so that he may be liberated from his horrible, fear-based lifestyle.  I am trying to save his *soul* by converting him to a realistic, rational world view.  I am trying to help him break free of this rut so he can progress with his spiritual evolution and not live in fear and confusion for the rest of his life.  I think that deep down he probably feels that something isn't right, yet it is his fear of hell that makes him *believe*.  I am somewhat frustrated though because he is completely ignoring certain logical paradoxes that would help him see that *hell* simply cannot exist. 

Fivepointer, you said many times that god's love is unconditional.  You also agree that god is omnipotent, all-knowing, and all-powerful.  These qualities alone make it impossible for him to let hell exist.  If hell exists then you are suggesting that god does not have the ability to triumph over *evil*.  UNCONDITIONAL love means that god will do everything in his power to ensure that everyone is converted and with him in heaven.  You say that his unconditional love is only given to his *children*.  That right there means that it is CONDITIONAL.  How can unconditional love be conditional?  A logical paradox.  How can an all-powerful god not be powerful enough to save everyone from hell?  A logical paradox.  How can an infinitely powerful, benevolent being allow such a place as hell to exist? A logical paradox.  Please ponder these ideas.  I am only trying to help you.  :heart:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6612650 - 02/26/07 01:54 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
I am not looking for an end, but rather trying to help him understand the flaws in his logic so that he may be liberated from his horrible, fear-based lifestyle.  I am trying to save his *soul* by converting him to a realistic, rational world view.  I am trying to help him break free of this rut so he can progress with his spiritual evolution and not live in fear and confusion for the rest of his life.  I think that deep down he probably feels that something isn't right, yet it is his fear of hell that makes him *believe*.  I am somewhat frustrated though because he is completely ignoring certain logical paradoxes that would help him see that *hell* simply cannot exist. 

Fivepointer, you said many times that god's love is unconditional.  You also agree that god is omnipotent, all-knowing, and all-powerful.  These qualities alone make it impossible for him to let hell exist.  If hell exists then you are suggesting that god does not have the ability to triumph over *evil*.  UNCONDITIONAL love means that god will do everything in his power to ensure that everyone is converted and with him in heaven.  You say that his unconditional love is only given to his *children*.  That right there means that it is CONDITIONAL.  How can unconditional love be conditional?  A logical paradox.  How can an all-powerful god not be powerful enough to save everyone from hell?  A logical paradox.  How can an infinitely powerful, benevolent being allow such a place as hell to exist? A logical paradox.  Please ponder these ideas.  I am only trying to help you.  :heart:




Another paradox: God created all things. Hell and all the vicissitudes of mankind are a part of creation and existence as we know it. Ergo, God created hell and is the terminal cause of all suffering. (And I am strictly referring to Fivepointer's "God.")

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Offlineleery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6612652 - 02/26/07 01:55 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Why is it that when talking about judgement day it is said that one reaps damnation by not feeding the least, and one attains salvation by feeding the least.

That these least ARE Christ.

It does not say "You did not believe in this doctrine" in fact the people spared said, when, when did we ever feed YOU? And they were told "when you fed the least of you, you fed me."


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
    #6612670 - 02/26/07 02:02 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Another paradox: God created all things. Hell and all the vicissitudes of mankind are a part of creation and existence as we know it. Ergo, God created hell and is the terminal cause of all suffering. (And I am strictly referring to Fivepointer's "God.")




Nice. And there are so many more......


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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OfflineLoveShroomDearly
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6612720 - 02/26/07 02:17 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

My dog ate my bible...


--------------------
What I do not know now, I will know when the time is right...

This very moment is a shining expansion of the breathing universe,

This exploding sensation of complete tranquility,

The one, the all, the sweet bliss of tasting God.

---LoveShroomDearly a.k.a. LSD

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: LoveShroomDearly]
    #6613130 - 02/26/07 03:44 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

To whomever this still interests:
Free will is our most blessing and our most curse :grin:
Forgiveness is given in the exact moment, one doesn't 'sin' anymore.
This all relates to our responsible life on earth and not to some preselect virtual BS. This preselection has no impact on our current live. If so, after repenting, everyone will enter the state of a preselected.
In further words, one could say, the same heaven or hell one experiences on earth will continue in an christian assumed afterlife. Preselected or not.
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6613439 - 02/26/07 05:13 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

The doctrine of unconditional election is not something I just came up with. It is clearly taught in scripture. I thought you might be interested in the historic Christian confessions regarding this doctrine. Please note that I hold the doctrine not because it is in a confession, but because it is in the scripture.


Gospel Standard Articles of Faith - 1888
III We believe in the everlasting and unchangeable love of God (Jer. 31:3); and that before the foundation of the world the Father did elect a certain number of the human race unto everlasting salvation, whom He did predestinate unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will (Gal. 4:5, Eph. 1:3-14, 1 Thess. 5:9, 2 Thess. 2:13, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 John 3:1, 1 Pet. 1:2, 1 Pet. 2:9); and we believe that in fulfilling this gracious design, He did make a covenant of grace and peace with the Son and with the Holy Ghost on behalf of those persons thus chosen (2 Sam. 23:5, John 1:17), and that in this covenant the Son was appointed a Saviour, and all spiritual blessings provided for the elect, and also that their persons, with all the grace and glory designed for them, were put into the hands of the Son as their Covenant Head, and made His care and charge. (Ps. 111:8-9, Is. 42:6, Is. 54:10, Is. 55:4, Jer. 31:3, John 6:37, John 17:2, Acts 4:12, Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 2:13, Heb. 2:13, Heb. 6:17-18, Heb. 8:8-9.)


Midland Confession of Faith - 1655
5th. That God elected and chose, in His Eternal counsel, some persons to life and salvation, before the foundation of the world, whom accordingly He doth and will effectually call, and whom He doth so call, He will certainly keep by His power, through faith to salvation. Acts xiii.48; Ephesians i.2-4; II Thessalonians ii.13; I Peter i.2, etc.


Westminster Confession of Faith - 1646
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]


London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )


The Belgic Confession - 1561
Article 16: The Doctrine of Election

We believe that-- all Adam's descendants having thus fallen into perdition and ruin by the sin of the first man-- God showed himself to be as he is: merciful and just.

He is merciful in withdrawing and saving from this perdition those whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable counsel, has elected and chosen in Jesus Christ our Lord by his pure goodness, without any consideration of their works.

He is just in leaving the others in their ruin and fall into which they plunged themselves.


The Canons of Dordt - 1618
Article 7: Election

Election [or choosing] is God's unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation. And so he decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw them effectively into Christ's fellowship through his Word and Spirit. In other words, he decided to grant them true faith in Christ, to justify them, to sanctify them, and finally, after powerfully preserving them in the fellowship of his Son, to glorify them.

God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.

As Scripture says, God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved (Eph. 1:4-6). And elsewhere, Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified (Rom. 8:30).

Article 8: A Single Decision of Election

This election is not of many kinds; it is one and the same election for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that there is a single good pleasure, purpose, and plan of God's will, by which he chose us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which he prepared in advance for us to walk in.

Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).

Article 10: Election Based on God's Good Pleasure

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve his choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves his adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as his own possession. As Scripture says, When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad..., she (Rebecca) was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). Also, All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

Article 11: Election Unchangeable

Just as God himself is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can his chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.



Westminster Larger Catechism
Question 13: What has God especially decreed concerning angels and men?

Answer: God, by an eternal and immutable decree, out of his mere love, for the praise of his glorious grace, to be manifested in due time, has elected some angels to glory; and in Christ has chosen some men to eternal life, and the means thereof: and also, according to his sovereign power, and the unsearchable counsel of his own will (whereby he extends or withholds favor as he pleases), has passed by and foreordained the rest to dishonor and wrath, to be for their sin inflicted, to the praise of the glory of his justice.


The Savoy Declaration - 1658
3# By the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.

4# These angels and men thus predestinated, and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

5# Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto, and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

6# As God bath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he by the eternal and most free purpose of his will fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified and saved, but the elect only.

7# The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6613482 - 02/26/07 05:32 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Please note that I hold the doctrine not because it is in a confession, but because it is in the scripture




That is where you err.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6613534 - 02/26/07 05:44 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

In time, we can speak about the citations of the bible-verses, but I wouldn't say to trust the bendings of Westminster (?), Dordt (?), some belgique confession, or London Baptist confession.
For me they sound like constructs to justify some evil deeds.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6613540 - 02/26/07 05:47 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

If you trust those confessions, then why not those of the Catholics?  There is no way to know which are the heretical/blashphemeous and which are the true denominations.  :shrug:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613557 - 02/26/07 05:51 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Alright, so let me get this straight, Fivepointer.

You say that the Bible is the true spoken Word of God, and you believe this because the Bible says it is.

Well guess what, the Koran says it is the Word of God (Allah). Looks like you need to be worshiping Allah and Muhammad as well.

Seems slightly circular, no?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6613563 - 02/26/07 05:54 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Watch him just ignore that one.....


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613701 - 02/26/07 06:39 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
If you trust those confessions, then why not those of the Catholics?  There is no way to know which are the heretical/blashphemeous and which are the true denominations.  :shrug:




The confessions of the Catholics are contrary to scripture, that is how I know.  BTW, I don't agree with all parts of the confessions posted. The teaching on election that I posted I agree with completely.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6613707 - 02/26/07 06:42 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Alright, so let me get this straight, Fivepointer.

You say that the Bible is the true spoken Word of God, and you believe this because the Bible says it is.

Well guess what, the Koran says it is the Word of God (Allah). Looks like you need to be worshiping Allah and Muhammad as well.

Seems slightly circular, no?




The faith is a mystery that needs to be revealed. Anyone can claim anything and say "God told me this or that". All I can say is I know it is true because I have witness in myself that it is. And I know you woun't understand that.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6613750 - 02/26/07 06:54 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

All I can say is I know it is true because I have witness in myself that it is. And I know you woun't understand that.




Care to explain?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6613764 - 02/26/07 06:58 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The confessions of the Catholics are contrary to scripture




How do you really know that the scripture was accurately preserved after the council of Nicaea? How do you know that Jesus really said what he is quoted as saying? How do you know that the scripture you have is the true one?

You will say that the scripture you have is the one that god intended, therefore he made sure that you got it. What if the true *god* is Allah and he is making sure that his scripture is popularized by having Jihad? What if god is using us here on this message board to convert you to the truth? You do not know what the original scriptures are or what god intends. How could you?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613774 - 02/26/07 07:01 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

How do you know that the scripture wasn't just a entertainment piece of the time? How do you know that it wasn't just a novel or story?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613794 - 02/26/07 07:05 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

From reading Fivepointer's replies, I can infer that he has no validity check for his beliefs. Everything he believes is based upon circular reasoning. Anything contradictory or critical of his literal interpretation of the Bible is a false teaching.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Fivepointer.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613799 - 02/26/07 07:05 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

How do you know that you are elect? As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

Edited by SoY (02/26/07 07:11 PM)

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613814 - 02/26/07 07:09 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

To claim that you are elect is to claim that you can read the mind of god. How can a mere human being read the mind of god? I thought the mind of god was so powerful and complex that humans could not even contemplate it?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613833 - 02/26/07 07:14 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Realistically, you simply entertain the idea that you are elect. There is no way of truly knowing until your death. It is the same with scripture. You entertain the possibility that you possess the word of god, yet there is no way of knowing which religion worships the true creator.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613843 - 02/26/07 07:16 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Say you witness a miracle. There is no way of knowing if the Christian god performed it or if Zeus came down from Olympus and performed it.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

Edited by SoY (02/26/07 09:49 PM)

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6613961 - 02/26/07 07:43 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Fivepointer, what is the logic that you use to discredit other religions?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6615157 - 02/27/07 12:14 AM (17 years, 24 days ago)

POST WHORE POST WHORE!!

You do pose good questions and thoughts, but it probably all could have been consolidated into one post.

I look forward to his 'answers'


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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