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Onlinefalcon
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6591459 - 02/20/07 09:34 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Your explanation is a little confusing. :confused:
Do you consider yourself an Arminian?

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6591474 - 02/20/07 09:37 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

What I am interested in hearing is Fivepointer's reasoning behind the Bible's validity and Christianity at large.

What evidence do you base your claims on, Fivepointer?

It is not satisfactory for debate to to say "The Bible is the true, inerrant, and spoken Word of God. And we know this, because the Bible says it is." You must invoke some sort of third party validity check.

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Onlinefalcon
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591514 - 02/20/07 09:47 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

I like to hear what people say about the bible also. For me the book is very dry and uninspiring. What people have to say about it is interesting. :laugh:

That's not say that it is a dry and uninspiring book, it just doesn't resonate with me.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6591598 - 02/20/07 10:02 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Visit a Charismatic Church. (lol)

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Onlinefalcon
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591693 - 02/20/07 10:19 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

I tend to get kicked out of places like Charismatic Churches, by big guys in expensive suits. I never have a good reason as to why I should be allowed to stay, so I'm always "excused".

"Excused" seems to be another thing fivepointer could have been implying in his openning question. Which make this whole thread just that much richer. :smile:

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OfflineShattered

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6592213 - 02/20/07 11:58 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Hi fivepointer

You said originally when you tried to be a Christian, love your neighbour, you found yourself going in the opposite direction.

After you 'got it', did that part of you change, to where you can now love your neighbours? Could you tell me a little more about that transition, your observations within yourself?

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6594463 - 02/21/07 04:37 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Your explanation is a little confusing. :confused:
Do you consider yourself an Arminian?




No.  I am not an Arminian.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6594529 - 02/21/07 04:55 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
What I am interested in hearing is Fivepointer's reasoning behind the Bible's validity and Christianity at large.

What evidence do you base your claims on, Fivepointer?

It is not satisfactory for debate to to say "The Bible is the true, inerrant, and spoken Word of God. And we know this, because the Bible says it is." You must invoke some sort of third party validity check.




How do I know what I believe is true? Every true believer has the witness of the Holy Spirit, which witnesses with the spirit of the believer. I did not have this before conversion.

Every believer is has been given a new heart and nature. This is a drastic difference in the life of the believer.

Man could never have invented the doctrines that compose the gospel, since it says things that man would find greatly offensive and absurd. The fact that it took 1,500 years to complete, yet the message rings throughout all the books with great harmony. The exact way the message is hidden and revealed.

The fact that many events were foretold that came to pass exactly as described.

The testimony of many witnesses that declare of the physical death and physical resurrection of Jesus as well as many miracles performed by Him and His apostles.

These are some of the reasons for knowing what I believe is true.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
    #6594538 - 02/21/07 04:58 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
I tend to get kicked out of places like Charismatic Churches, by big guys in expensive suits. I never have a good reason as to why I should be allowed to stay, so I'm always "excused".

"Excused" seems to be another thing fivepointer could have been implying in his openning question. Which make this whole thread just that much richer. :smile:




The "Charismatic" movement is a great deception.  The doctrines will always expose the true from the false.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6594554 - 02/21/07 05:02 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Man could never have invented the doctrines that compose the gospel, since it says things that man would find greatly offensive and absurd.




I apologize but this is not a reasonable statement. Human beings are capable of making statements that many others will find offensive and absurd. It happens all the time, even on this website. It happened thousands upon thousands of years ago. If this is your only line of "reasoning" that suggests that man could not have written the texts of the bible completely on their own then you have demonstrated nothing of substance on the matter.

Quote:


The fact that many events were foretold that came to pass exactly as described.




Substantiation, please? Which events? Exactly as described? Elaborate.

Quote:


The testimony of many witnesses that declare of the physical death and physical resurrection of Jesus as well as many miracles performed by Him and His apostles.




Testimonials? Since when are testimonials considered to be truth? Ever read testimonials on those shady pills? "I ate this pill and my dick grew seven inches in two days - J.E.". :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Shattered]
    #6594652 - 02/21/07 05:25 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Shattered said:
Hi fivepointer

You said originally when you tried to be a Christian, love your neighbour, you found yourself going in the opposite direction.

After you 'got it', did that part of you change, to where you can now love your neighbours? Could you tell me a little more about that transition, your observations within yourself?




Does a Christian sin after conversion? Yes. The difference is that a new heart has been given and a new nature implanted. So while a Christian sins it leads to eventual sorrow for that sin. Because act of sin works against the new nature a Christian can not stay in sin. Sin no longer has dominion on the converted.

Because great grace has been poured out on the Christian, this is why he should be gracious to others.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6594871 - 02/21/07 06:19 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either doesn't exist, isn't how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.




This is logic fivepointer.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.




And you have heard the word of god? I think that most likely you read/heard the word of man, after countless revisions and editing. Do you discard the ancient texts that have been uncovered and reach for your King James Version that was printed in 1995? How can one discern truth and falsehood by reading a book? Jesus Christ did not author your holy text. How can you so easily disregard ancient documents that are not in accordance with your beliefs? Are they not also records of Jesus' life and teachings? Now, common sense would say that the ancient texts likely contain more truth than the new because they were written a *hell* of a lot closer to the time period. Realistically, they can be given almost no credit for they are simply just words, written by men, in a time where there were very many misconceptions of the nature of reality. Who judges which gospel is true?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6594979 - 02/21/07 06:43 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either doesn't exist, isn't how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.




This is logic fivepointer.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.




And you have heard the word of god? I think that most likely you read/heard the word of man, after countless revisions and editing. Do you discard the ancient texts that have been uncovered and reach for your King James Version that was printed in 1995? How can one discern truth and falsehood by reading a book? Jesus Christ did not author your holy text. How can you so easily disregard ancient documents that are not in accordance with your beliefs? Are they not also records of Jesus' life and teachings? Now, common sense would say that the ancient texts likely contain more truth than the new because they were written a *hell* of a lot closer to the time period. Realistically, they can be given almost no credit for they are simply just words, written by men, in a time where there were very many misconceptions of the nature of reality. Who judges which gospel is true?




Just to clarify, when I use the term "gospel" I am referring to the doctrines that define the faith, this is the gospel. I am not using the word to mean books of the Bible like the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Galatians uses the word “gospel” in this way:
Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Greek/Hebrew manuscripts are available so you can check the translators. The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, the received text. The KJV was first printed in 1611 , the commonly used version today is the 1769 update.

These so-called newly discovered "gospels" clearly do not belong in the canon. The content and message does not belong. Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.

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InvisibleSoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6595004 - 02/21/07 06:48 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

:flowstone:  I guess some people just don't get it.....


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
    #6595438 - 02/21/07 08:23 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.





And you know this how?

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
    #6596331 - 02/22/07 01:21 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6596378 - 02/22/07 02:00 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Here's some applied logic of Christianity, filtered through Casteneda...it ought to be interesting, so read it up!

1. The world is evil. (All things worldly, ya know, gossip, useless power sapping soap opera stuff) Christian....but also Casteneda.

Christian method to fix #1, blame imperfection and beg for forgiveness.

Castaneda's method to fix #1, Stop the world. Do not involve yourself with it. It is useless waste of time and power.

2. The Afterlife

Christianity's view: Don't do 'bad' or you'll burn in Hell!

Casteneda's view: Afterlife? You suck at this life, get it right first!

3. Love and Acceptance

Christianity: God forgives you for being evil, so through his unconditional love, he gives you this CONDITION: Be good or burn forever.

Casteneda: Nothing is personal, not love, not hate, nothing. It is all based on our own point of view, and that is all that matters.




In summary: If God is love, Stevie Wonder plays the piano, and love is blind, does that mean that God plays the Piano?


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6597646 - 02/22/07 02:55 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity?  Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh?  From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.




IMO the original poster has no interest in seeing any other views. Of course he sidesteps questions he has no answer for. He, it seems, is not here to learn or discuss anything. He, it seems, is here to preach fundamentalist Christianity as part of his duty for his god. My guess is he is building up credits. I grew up around the dogmatic fundamentalist mindset. In church I was told  that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones. Unfortunately my father was one of them. A very unhappy and fear driven man. So sad. He never was able to show any real love because he had none and believed he was a terrible sinner and groveled before his idol to beg forgiveness for being human. The only clear emotions he ever showed me were fear and wrath.:( Fortunately I have let go of much of  this and feel much empathy for him and I also do for this poster. Yet I will aways stand against what they preach.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
    #6597683 - 02/22/07 03:02 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

In church I was told that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones




Same here. People told me that evidence against Christianity was the work of Satan. I was also instructed to avoid any secular texts-- since this would open my mind up to Satan's lies-- irregardless of their topic.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6598155 - 02/22/07 04:32 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.




Actually I am not trying to dodge anything. I just do not have the time to answer every question.

No group "pressured" me into anything, I was the agnostic's agnostic. I merely came with an open mind to the scriptures and they opened up to me. God reveals the gospel to those He intends to save, it is entirely a free gift. I do not see what I believe as contraining or ignorant, I see it as the wisdom of God, and a joyous thing.

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