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 veridical
Stranger
Registered: 02/12/07
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 Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. 
#6559708 - 02/12/07 06:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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We perceive ordinary objects (fungi, Socrates, etc.)
We perceive only ideas.
Therefore, ordinary objects are ideas.
Ordinary objects are sensible things.
Sensible things are ideas
Ideas cannot exist unperceived
Therefore, ordinary (physical) objects cannot exist unperceived
The existence of an idea consists in its being perceived
Ideas exist
Therefore, perceiving substances (“minds”) exist
Sensible properties are ideas.
Ideas cannot exist unperceived.
Material substance is an unperceiving support support of (at least some) sensible properties.
There can be no such thing as material substance. (proof by contradiction)
All substance is either material or immaterial.
Therefore, the only kind of substance is perceiving immaterial substance.
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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: veridical]
#6561811 - 02/13/07 04:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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a nicely tied knot
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Drewwyann
Slayer of ticks
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6563444 - 02/13/07 04:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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do mean if we cant perceive something, it doesnt exist? This has often confused me.
Im not sure if thats what your trying to say, but i often consider the human mind as a computer program, and everything else as information being fed into it. it might not actually be what the object your perceiving looks, smells, tastes, feels, or sounds like, but thats how your mind perceives it.
Kind of like how computers take binary and turn it into a visual on your computer screen.
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Continuum
Kid A
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: veridical]
#6564253 - 02/13/07 07:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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The poster is basically quoting George Berkeley's philosophy of monist immaterialism
poster is also perhaps taking a history of modern philosophy course?
Edited by Continuum (02/13/07 07:28 PM)
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: Continuum]
#6564302 - 02/13/07 07:37 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
the only kind of substance is perceiving immaterial substance.
This is true. Everything we perceive is a secondhand rendition of the true reality. Our environments are first interpreted through sensory neurons and then sent through a labyrinth of nerve cells and finally to our brains. Hence, everything we experience is an immaterial rendition that is made available via the elusive organ that hides within the confines of our skulls.
This is not to say that our secondhand interpretation of reality is by any means wrong or deceptive; what we perceive is really there. The object(s) being perceived are not necessarily exactly as we perceive it/them; our perceptions are a symbol of what is really there.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: Drewwyann]
#6564317 - 02/13/07 07:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Drewwyann said:
Im not sure if thats what your trying to say, but i often consider the human mind as a computer program, and everything else as information being fed into it. it might not actually be what the object your perceiving looks, smells, tastes, feels, or sounds like, but thats how your mind perceives it.
Kind of like how computers take binary and turn it into a visual on your computer screen.
Excellent assessment. 
Clearly, our sensory devices collect sensory data. We may only know how we experience the perception that we formulate from this data, and could not know the objective nature of that which we are collecting sensory data from through our sensory devices' interaction with that, yet the fact that we collect data from the interaction defines that it exists.
Our experience of reality exists as a hologram. It is a projection, yet there is data being collected that determines what will be projected.
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Xtals
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: veridical]
#6564375 - 02/13/07 07:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
veridical said:
We perceive ordinary objects (fungi, Socrates, etc.)
We perceive only ideas.
Balls.
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wilshire
free radical
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: veridical]
#6565811 - 02/14/07 07:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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We perceive ordinary objects (fungi, Socrates, etc.)
We perceive only ideas.
a contradiction right off the bat.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: veridical]
#6565880 - 02/14/07 07:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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We perceive only ideas.
Do we? I don't think so.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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capliberty
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: trendal]
#6566239 - 02/14/07 10:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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We preceive whats in front of us. Fake or real, or partially real, it is what it is, looking from different angles of course its realitive in understanding and defining it to what it really means at its present moment. call it an idea, call it substance, but even these discriptions can fall short and with taht even your whole argument. The end is an infinite loop of thinking that really drives at nothing, maybe you hone in on higher perception, but whatever, to each his own
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: capliberty]
#6566285 - 02/14/07 10:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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We perceive whatever our brains tell us to perceive, real or not. What is "out there" may or may not coincide with what we perceive.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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capliberty
Stranger
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: trendal]
#6566421 - 02/14/07 11:24 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even at that we could see whats out there, that what we perceive is just what our brain is telling us and seeing it as such and how much it coincides. which basically means we can trump our own thoughts and understand how real it really is.
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
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Loc: boco
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Re: Objects are ideas that cannot exist unperceived. Minds exist, and only minds exist. [Re: veridical]
#6567185 - 02/14/07 02:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Every thought we conjure is a perception of the world around us. Therefore, any sensation or perception we have is a symbol or rendition of what is really being experienced. It is not that our thoughts are all that exist; there is a real world outside the tight confines of our skin that we can (and do) perceive. Our neurological network is simply the mediator between the world and ourselves; it is not terminal reality.
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