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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7494910 - 10/07/07 03:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

This is not about accurate copying, it is about mutation.  Once the "original" cell mutates, it cannot create healthy, normal copies.  This mutation is not random, it is the response of a living organism to toxins and mutagens.  Claiming that cancer is the result of inaccurate copying is like claiming that cuts in our skin are the result of epidermal gapping.  :lol:

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7495018 - 10/07/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It cannot create "normal" copies, but unless the transcription mechanisms were affected by the mutation, it will continue to create "non-normal" copies of the cell as it existed after the mutation.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7495062 - 10/07/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Mutation = Transcription error


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7495149 - 10/07/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Not quite.

Quote:

In biology, mutations are changes to the base pair sequence of genetic material (either DNA or RNA). Mutations can be caused by copying errors in the genetic material during cell division and by exposure to ultraviolet or ionizing radiation, chemical mutagens, or viruses, or can occur deliberately under cellular control during processes such as meiosis or hypermutation.




Quote:

Cancer cells develop because of damage to DNA. This substance is in every cell and directs all its activities. Most of the time when DNA becomes damaged the body is able to repair it. In cancer cells, the damaged DNA is not repaired. People can inherit damaged DNA, which accounts for inherited cancers. Many times though, a person’s DNA becomes damaged by exposure to something in the environment, like smoking.




http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_1x_What_Is_Cancer_72.asp?sitearea=CRI

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InvisibleNemo_Hoes
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Shroomism]
    #7499077 - 10/08/07 07:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks, my dad is going to try this out, let you guys now how it goes, he's Stage 4


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We will also report to the NAACP and to Al Sharpton's entourage, how the Shroomery administrators allows their mods and members to be balatantly allowed the use of the 'N' word.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7499153 - 10/08/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Normal cellular mitosis does not cause mutation, it creates a new cell.  The question is what causes the mutated cancer cell to be created instead of a healthy cell.  Are you claiming that cancer is the result of random mutation during mitosis, and that environment and lifestyle play no part in the creation of cancer cells?  :confused:




Yes and no. Cancer is the result of mutations in DNA, but there are certain factors that increase the risk of these mutations. There is no way to completely prevent cancer. No matter what the Discovery Institute tells us, our body is not designed to function perfectly. It is possible to decrease the risks of developing cancerous cells, but there is no way to ensure that your DNA will continue to replicate without any errors. Eventually, it will make a mistake.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7499223 - 10/08/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Again, where are you getting the idea that this is just a random mistake? From what I've read, either the DNA is already damaged (inherited cancer risk) or it becomes damaged by environmental factors. The idea of a "mistake" is simply not mentioned.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7501442 - 10/09/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So you're saying that you dont believe in random mutation?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7501901 - 10/09/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No, I am saying that cancer is not the result of random mutation. If not for random mutation, there would be no evolution. Cancer, however, is the result of inherited or environmentally-caused damage to the structure of our DNA, resulting in the production of a mutated cell (cancer). This cannot be described as random.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7502133 - 10/09/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Again, where are you getting the idea that this is just a random mistake? From what I've read, either the DNA is already damaged (inherited cancer risk) or it becomes damaged by environmental factors. The idea of a "mistake" is simply not mentioned.




Cancer develops due to oxidants that damage DNA and errors in DNA replication during mitosis. It is not "just a random mistake" or just environmental factors. A cell with damaged DNA will kill itself (apoptosis), but if the mechanism responsible for apoptosis is damaged, then the cell continues replicating. This can lead to cancer/tumors if other parts of the DNA are damaged.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7503080 - 10/09/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, this is what I'm getting at. A cancer cell cannot proliferate unless DNA damage has already occurred. This damage is NOT the result of random mutation, it is the result of inherited genetic damage or environmental damage from free radicals, radiation & carcinogenic toxins. About 50% of all cancers are related to damage to the p53 gene, which is responsible for triggering apoptosis upon recognition of DNA damage in a new cell.

While we cannot control what we may have inherited, we can certainly control many environmental (read: lifestyle) factors which cause DNA damage.

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Offlineranke
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Seuss]
    #7592172 - 11/03/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

For dogs sake can one of these things have a properly conducted medical study!? And for fucks sake think a little bit. When ever someone disagrees with one of these newage mumbo jumo cures the response is always "blah blah blah someone makes a lot of money, oh and by the way, I have a book you can buy. Here I have a bottle of grass you can buy too, it will cost you 80 dollars." Really people, all these websites are pushing books and pills and vitamins. Now I'm not saying that this is 100% bunk, because frankly I don't have time to read the whole thing. What I am saying is think like a critic.

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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7592977 - 11/03/07 11:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think to a certain extent you're over-simplifying the mechanisms or causes of cancer.


It's not just a matter of purely lifestyle and environmental exposure.


Random spontaneous mutation occurs all the time in your genes. DNA itself is a pretty unstable molecular structure. Which is why many cellular mechanisms devote themselves strictly to stabilizing DNA structure.


What happens when your body ages (please keep in mind, i'm basing alot of this on very very recent studies), alot of these gene stabilizing mechanisms decrease in effectiveness.

One theory currently under study is the effective deterioration of microRNA.



But the causes of cancer aren't exclusive to the changes in a cell's DNA.

Transcriptional regulators, RNA-based exon shifters, and all kinds of viruses (both naturally occuring and transduced) have been known to cause cancer. Even defects in protein based mechanisms which regulate the opening and closing of histones can alter and eliminate the regulation of cell growth.


People can theorize that cancer is caused by alot of modern era environmental factors, which is a valid arguement, but not entirely universal for all triggers of cancer.

One thing to consider is, people are constantly living longer and longer with the advancement of medicine. People would die of diseases long before they were even old enough to become at risk of cancer.

In fact, the knowledge of medicine has grown exponentially within the last century. Far more discoveries and ideas have come to age in this modern time than ever really recorded in history.

So it's very possible that cancer was around for a long time, but not really understood or diagnosed. Causes of death would basically be labeled as the mechanisms or eventual results FROM cancer, such as liver failure, renal toxicity, hyperinfection....


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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7593614 - 11/04/07 07:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Everyones DNA is filled with errors and junk that serves no purpose.




Errors and junk? Seems like a conclusion from lack of understanding to me. :shrug:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Shroomism]
    #7593869 - 11/04/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Have you heard of mangosteen? I've heard great things about its anti-carcinogenic properties as well.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7593961 - 11/04/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Did you read any of my posts?  :confused:  Where did I say that cancer results from "purely lifestyle and environmental exposure"? 

What I posted is that the genetic damage caused by lifestyle and environment IS within our control, and that it is inaccurate to claim that cancer is just "random mutation" as had been posted by several misinformed parties.  If we inherit a damaged p53 gene, we are predisposed to developing cancer (unchecked random mutation).  If we damage our DNA through the many carcinogenic factors present in the Westernized lifestyle, we are predisposed to developing cancer (unchecked random mutation).

The factor which is within our control is lifestyle.  Study after study has shown carcinogenic effects of diet, exposure to toxins and radiation, sedentary lifestyle, stress, and so on.  Why do you (and others on this thread) insist upon viewing cancer as something that just happens?  There is no such thing as a "drive-by cancering."  :lol: 

Even those who inherit a predisposition to cancer can improve their odds by adopting an anti-cancer diet and lifestyle.  This is widely accepted, and not a radical proposition.  I simply do not understand the blind adherence to the idea that cancer prevention is somehow misguided and non-scientific.

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7594078 - 11/04/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I simply do not understand the blind adherence to the idea that cancer prevention is somehow misguided and non-scientific.


:thumbup:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7594170 - 11/04/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Also, like, living healthy and, like stuff, like, make living, um, cool, too. :hehehe:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Silversoul]
    #7595047 - 11/04/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Have you heard of mangosteen? I've heard great things about its anti-carcinogenic properties as well.




After working in the Natural foods Industry for over 20 years I've seen em all. Don't buy into it is my advice. A well rounded program eating and lifestyle habits will give the results you want. These natural products while not worthless are over hyped and pushed as a magic pill the same as the main stream doc push theirs. Don't fall for it.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: A 90% Cancer Cure Diet using Flaxseed Oil & Cottage Cheese [Re: Veritas]
    #7596485 - 11/04/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Did you read any of my posts?  :confused:  Where did I say that cancer results from "purely lifestyle and environmental exposure"? 




Quote:

Veritas said: cancer cell cannot proliferate unless DNA damage has already occurred. This damage is NOT the result of random mutation, it is the result of inherited genetic damage or environmental damage from free radicals, radiation & carcinogenic toxins




Oh i forgot the "inherited genetic damage" part, my bad.

Quote:

What I posted is that the genetic damage caused by lifestyle and environment IS within our control, and that it is inaccurate to claim that cancer is just "random mutation" as had been posted by several misinformed parties.  If we inherit a damaged p53 gene, we are predisposed to developing cancer (unchecked random mutation).  If we damage our DNA through the many carcinogenic factors present in the Westernized lifestyle, we are predisposed to developing cancer (unchecked random mutation).




Do you even realize that if you inherit a damaged p53 gene, you already have a large chance of developing Li Fraumeni Syndrome?  It's the primary etiology of inheriting a damaged TP53.

The majority of genetic hereditary mechanisms leading to increased incidence of cancer are actually poorly understood. 

Which makes it even more comical that you declare that spontaneous mutation isn't a possible cause of cancer.


Quote:

The factor which is within our control is lifestyle.  Study after study has shown carcinogenic effects of diet, exposure to toxins and radiation, sedentary lifestyle, stress, and so on.  Why do you (and others on this thread) insist upon viewing cancer as something that just happens?  There is no such thing as a "drive-by cancering."  :lol: 





Do you even realize how little is actually understood about the causes of cancer? 

Many things ares purely based off theory, even the guanine-exchanged theory of oxygen radical mutation is something that hasn't really been unanimously accepted in the scientific community.

I never said environmental and lifestyle factors WEREN'T causes of cancer.  The point was, WE DONT KNOW all of the mechanisms that cause it, and that alot of it isn't even limited strictly to alterations in a cell's DNA.


If you can so confidently declare that random mutation leading to cancer isn't even a possibility, you must know something, that thousands of cancer researchers don't.

Quote:

Even those who inherit a predisposition to cancer can improve their odds by adopting an anti-cancer diet and lifestyle.  This is widely accepted, and not a radical proposition.  I simply do not understand the blind adherence to the idea that cancer prevention is somehow misguided and non-scientific.




Prevention is not the same thing as "curing" as you might observe from the title of this thread.  Which is what was absurd from alot of the initial post to begin with.




I also find it absurd that you claimed this:

Quote:

Veritas said:A cancer cell cannot proliferate unless DNA damage has already occurred. This damage is NOT the result of random mutation, it is the result of inherited genetic damage or environmental damage from free radicals, radiation & carcinogenic toxins.




Wow....

So I guess all the studies confirming the effects of human papilloma virus being the primary cause of cervical cancer...are just readily dismissed?  Since according to your repeated claims,  gene mutation is the only cause of cancer....

Lets forget about all those other viruses which RANDOMLY insert their gene sequences in a cell's genetic material, yet have shown to increase the incidence of cancer.

Because random mutation doesn't cause cancer, right?




You specifically stated repeatedly that cancer is only caused by alterations in a cell's genetic material, which is just plain wrong.

If you actually read through my original post you might have picked this up.

Edited by LiquidSmoke (11/04/07 09:35 PM)

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