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Offlineadamj
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6580861 - 02/18/07 09:22 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

yeah I've slowly come to the conclusion that Jim Morrison was just a drunk. Other than their more popular songs, their catalog isn't the greatest. "Touch Me" I can't ufckin stand because it sounds like Jim just polished off a 40 before recording, which he most likely did.

I'm surprised by all the hatred towards Elvis. Wouldn't have expected him to be on an overrated list but to each their own.

I would have to vote Rolling Stones for most overrated band. They're hailed as THEY Rock n roll band, but what did they do exactly? release some good singles?

other overrated bands:

U2
Tragically Hip (sorry fellow canadians lol :smile:)
Nickelback

Edited by adamj (02/18/07 02:21 PM)

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OfflineVulture
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: adamj]
    #6581164 - 02/18/07 11:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

all of them


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6581522 - 02/18/07 01:35 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)


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OfflineThreePieceSuit
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: Viveka]
    #6581601 - 02/18/07 01:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm leaning toward what Yageman said.

Sure, a lot of bands are popular because they played music that was fun, easy to listen to, and catered to people. But you've still got to admit and attempt to appreciate that these people are creating music.

And the sound they have may not be the sound of each individual musician. Which is why side projects exist. So to hear someone say that a band that plays pop songs is just catering to the "mainstream" makes me cringe. Maybe they're being glorified because of the music they play, but is finding a sound that a majority of people like not an impressive feat?

When I think of overrated, I instantly think "Do they write their own music? Do they play instruments?"

I'm hard pressed to find anybody on MTV with the talent to master an instrument, yet these people are the ones making all the money, getting all the attention, and receiving all the awards.

How about underrated musicians? How about Nick Drake, Mark Farina, Architecture in Helsinki, etc?

I'm a little disapointed by some of you.

Edit:
Quote:

ThreePieceSuit said:
I'm a little disapointed by some of you.




I'm becoming aware that that was a very self righteous thing to say. Let me state for the record that I don't feel like anyone here is vying for my validation. I apologize.

Let me also say that the word disapointed has my spell checks locked in a battle of notable proportions.

Edited by ThreePieceSuit (02/18/07 02:28 PM)

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Offlineadamj
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: ThreePieceSuit]
    #6581796 - 02/18/07 02:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

True. This is just merely an opinion thread.

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: adamj]
    #6581945 - 02/18/07 03:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It really is truly impossible to be overrated.
What makes someone overrated?
Too many people like them compared to how good they are.
But if a bunch of people like them, aren't they good?
No, their not good.
But a bunch of people like them, so then they must be good.

It could go on for days, but I think you all get the point.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6582014 - 02/18/07 03:35 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So are you saying popularity is an indication of quality? If that's true, McDonalds is the best food, Budweiser is the best beer, and whatever's at the top of the pop charts, say Beyonce and Fall Out Boy, is really great music.

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Offlineadamj
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: Viveka]
    #6582031 - 02/18/07 03:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Viveka said:
So are you saying popularity is an indication of quality?  If that's true, McDonalds is the best food, Budweiser is the best beer, and whatever's at the top of the pop charts, say Beyonce and Fall Out Boy, is really great music.




But that's the problem right there! Fuck this is like a bad thought loop! :lol:

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: adamj]
    #6582071 - 02/18/07 03:57 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, yes I am saying that.
It isn't, however, the only indication. Music is a form of entertainment, we cannot forget that, so if people are entertaining mass amounts, then it seems like they are doing pretty well.

I'm also saying what you do and don't like is a matter of opinion, and opinion only (yes there is music theory and such, but the lay-person knows nothing about music theory), so if mass amounts of people like a band, why are they wrong?

Some people do think Budweiser is a good beer, why are they wrong?
I think Beyonce is a great singer, am I wrong?
So what if someone prefers McDonald's, who are you (or anyone else) to say their taste buds are inferior to yours?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6582152 - 02/18/07 04:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jewunit said:
Music is a form of entertainment, we cannot forget that, so if people are entertaining mass amounts, then it seems like they are doing pretty well.





Doing pretty well at what exactly?
Quote:

jewunit said:
I'm also saying what you do and don't like is a matter of opinion, and opinion only (yes there is music theory and such, but the lay-person knows nothing about music theory), so if mass amounts of people like a band, why are they wrong?





Do you respect the opinion of a 6 year olds ideas of whats good and whats not good music? Acknowledging that music theory is involved is acknowledging theres external factors to what we like and what we don't.

Quote:

jewunit said:
Some people do think Budweiser is a good beer, why are they wrong?
I think Beyonce is a great singer, am I wrong?
So what if someone prefers McDonald's, who are you (or anyone else) to say their taste buds are inferior to yours?




one might say your taste buds are "undeveloped". I respect all you  shroomers opinions though because i understand that it generally turns people on to art. I guess im saying there is More appreciation when someone develops there tastes

I think most bands are a little over rated, because in fact most people havent developed their tastes in art too much. The peoples opinion makes the band over rated not the band itself. The band just makes music.

Yes i am super pretentious when it comes to music but im also being realistic.

But if you say pink floyd is overrated youre just a fuckin idiot;)


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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
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OfflineViveka
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6582193 - 02/18/07 04:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The McDonalds comment is a good example. Sure, it may taste good in some ways, but does that mean it's quality? Candy and ice cream taste good, but lots of people eat the shit like their stomach was a garbage can, and it hurts them in the long run. Similarly, if you decide that music that is easy on the palate and easy to swallow is the best in terms of quality, that's your decision to make. However, I think that after years of swallowing the same garbage, there is likely to be a detrimental effect. And let's not forget the gigantic role that marketing, advertising, and funded exposure plays in determining what receives the most of people's attention, in turn making it the most popular.

And I think that someone who has done the work, in terms of exposing themselves to more challenging music, and listening to albums that take multiple listens to begin to understand, and relating to music from the perspective of playing an instrument themselves, and creating music, and learning to listen in a live music context, and developing improvisational skill, and attempting to penetrate the veil of obscure types of music so as to have a better understanding of music and the world and themseleves as a whole, is in a better position to judge what is quality and what isn't. Unless you think the sole determiner of quality should simply be what a person thinks or feels regardless of their experience or the scope of their knowledge or passion in a subject. Fuck that.

Granted, in lots of cases, quality speaks for itself. If a pair of shoes holds up for two years, it's a good pair of shoes. But in the realm of subjective taste, all discussion becomes subjective. That's the realm were in now and it's quite pointless to demand that I qualify everything as my own opinion, or to insist that I'm out of line for expressing my opinion with a statement such as "Who are you to say blahblahblah about what someone else's blahblahblah". Beyonce may appeal to you at some level and there's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean her music is as good as the music of Joni Mitchell. Yes, that's my opinion but I'm asserting it as fact. Joni's music is quite simply a much higher art form with a much broader scope and a much more focused narrative of the soul. Beyonce's music is about fucking and is designed to get you moving on the dance floor. It's of a lesser caliber, ok? I have guilty musical pleasures, like Christina Aguilera for instance. The only reason I even give a shit about her latest track is because i think she's dead sexy. And she does have an amazing voice, but her music is of lower quality than a lot of much less popular music. She's popular for obvious, very base reasons, not because her musical compositions are of unprecedented quality.

Another guilty musical pleasyure that sometimes strikes me is Nelly Furtado's track Promiscuous, and that's straight off the top of the fucking charts. It does something for me when I'm in the right mood because this New Year's I was up in Vancouver B.C. with some friends and in our hotel we heard this song constantly in the neighboor's hotel room and on the music channel. Then, on new year's eve i ate mdma for the first time at a big party, and when we got back to the hotel, i had just come off the experience and Promiscuous was still playing everywhere and it crystalized into one of those musical memories that sticks a feeling to a certain place and time. It's a "hot" track in terms of music that is about fucking and it's got some good production and an effective bassline. But in the scope of music in general, it's pretty much dogshit. See where I'm coming from?

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Offlinemrpastorius
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: Viveka]
    #6582213 - 02/18/07 04:49 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

the chili peppers, green day

anything that is on MTV or any "hit" radio station

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: Viveka]
    #6582302 - 02/18/07 05:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

jewunit,
Alot of people tend to somehow retaliate when their musical integrety is attacked. Face it anytime you say this band is overrated your bashing everyone who does like it.

someone who has been composing music for 20 years may bash the music of beyonce.

And someone who has listened to beyonce and only stuff like that may bash the music of john coltrane.

See whats going on here?

One person understands the music he is bashing and the other doesnt. The majority of people who say these guys play so fast or so out there that they have lost the feeling, have only just never tapped into the musicians feeling themselves! Thats not to say the composer shouldnt like beyonce, but his statement reguarding beyonce actually probably has more meaning than the other persons

Vivika, i tend to agree with mostly what you said, but im not sure theres an objective reality to quality. At first i was like hell no you can only measure the complexity of music, and the quality according to yourself. for some reason I thought that if you say certain art is better than other art, there would eventually have to be perfect art, which would make no sense. But maybe art COULD theoretically be put on a scale (somehow based on the emotional reaction in the listener), of course not scientifically, and the quality would have no limit to it. Maybe thats why art cant be measured, because it represents infinity, and to put infinity into increments is meaningless.

complexity isnt what makes good music.
Emotion is.

Indirectly though, the logical complexity of music creates more potential for a good piece of art.

I dont bash music too much because its very offensive in my opinion. But for some reason it sure feels good when i do


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  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: mrpastorius]
    #6582394 - 02/18/07 05:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm just gonna make this a reply to the last post since it's really a reply to Viveka and Daytripper.

Let me start out by saying that I am extremely pretentious when it comes to music as well. I'm also well versed in music theory and know much more than the average person. So it seems like I meet your criteria to know what is and what is not good music.

I would also like to add that I think many people who are into music that is not the popular music of the time are generally biased towards said biased music to think that it's not good. Just because it's on MTV doesn't mean it's not good, and frankly I'm tired of reading that in every other post on this thread.

I think the problem is that music serves many different purposes. Just because a certain piece, or artist, doesn't serve the purpose you are looking for in music, doesn't mean that it is bad, or overrated if everyone else likes it. That stuff on MTV? That stuff is good for parties, clubs, or just sitting back and having some background music. Personally, and I'm sure this goes for most people, I don't want to have to sit there and dissect what's going on in a piece. Often I do, but usually not in a social setting (unless I'm with my music friends).

Another factor is that you shouldn't always have to dissect a piece or song for it to be good music. The Beatles were nothing amazing as far as musicianship goes, but they were damn good still. Their influence is arguably rivaled by none. It so happens they were also extremely popular, so those of you who say that all the stuff on top 40 radio is crap, do you think the Beatles were crap too?

This next point that I'm going to make has large generalizations in it, and I understand that. Obviously there is a varying interest in music on this forum, but I believe the majority of people are going to have very similar taste in what they feel is good and bad.
I think it's fair to say that many people here like bands such as the Dead, Pink Floyd, Phish, and any other band that's associated with drug use. I, too, enjoy the music of those bands, and unfortunately never had the opportunity to see them live. I don't think, however, they are nearly as great as many make them out to be, as far as musicianship goes. They are extremely creative, but I don't feel many of the members are anymore graced in their music theory knowledge than in some of the bands that are in Top 40. Yes, Jerry Garcia is a really good guitarist compared to most, yes they have the skills to improvise, but trust me when I say there are plenty of people in the bands that have been listed as "overrated" in this thread that also have extremely talented musicians. (I guess this really goes for any music that isn't really jazz, classical, or other things were you truly need exceptional technical abilities along with music theory knowledge unmatched by most in other genres.)

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of bands (besides the ever popular selection of "what's on MTV") are what many consider to be greats. The Greatful Dead, Radiohead, Red Hot Chili Peppers, etc. So one requirement to be overrated seems to be you have to be great. But that doesn't make much sense, does it? The reason for this is, obviously, opinion. One person doesn't find that particular artist/group's output very good, and they therefore think that band is overrated. This is a huge reason why I feel it is truly impossible to be overrated. There's a reason so many people like it, it's because it's good (I'm applying this to the case of bands that aren't Top 40 for the most part, but more bands that are considered greats in their genre or expertise), and since you don't see eye to eye with the fanbase's musical taste, you think the band is overrated.

As far as pop music goes, it's popular now, but longevity is what matters. It's the current taste of the majority of listeners, usually for some reason or another (it's a new style of music, it's good to dance to, good groove, I could go on), but in the long run, it's not going to last. Maybe an artist of two will, and those will be who are the truly great artists, but they will also always be viewed as overrated because there are always going to be people who don't like what's popular, or was popular, for some reason or another. There are so many examples I could use, but I'm going to go with the Temptations. They were far from the only group doing what they did (I'm sure everyone's heard of Motown), but they are one of the most popular and well known today. I could name bands who did the same style stuff but aren't really well known now. But then they were the stuff playing on Top 40, because that's what was popular. Does that make the band overrated, or the genre? Surely it can't be the genre, the reason it grew out of style is because new generations come along, and with new generations comes new innovations. These new innovations in music are what becomes popular, and in turn it will also die out. It's the cycle of music.

Alright, so that was pretty long. I apologize for that, I was having a lot of trouble getting what is going on in my mind onto the paper, so to speak. Going back and reading it, I realize its flow is very poor, and I still don't think I'm getting across what I wanted to, but I tried. Maybe with some more responses I'll be able to further my points.

Also, I'd like to end this with saying I'm very surprised that Red Hot Chili Peppers have been named so many times. Whether you want to admit it or not, they are pretty talented musicians. With that talent they make unique music, but also music that appeals to the masses (this is an extremely hard combination to make), and their live show is easily one of the best I have ever seen from any genre. That is all. Sorry for the length.


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6582408 - 02/18/07 05:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
jewunit,
Alot of people tend to somehow retaliate when their musical integrety is attacked. Face it anytime you say this band is overrated your bashing everyone who does like it.

someone who has been composing music for 20 years may bash the music of beyonce.

And someone who has listened to beyonce and only stuff like that may bash the music of john coltrane.

See whats going on here?

One person understands the music he is bashing and the other doesnt. The majority of people who say these guys play so fast or so out there that they have lost the feeling, have only just never tapped into the musicians feeling themselves! Thats not to say the composer shouldnt like beyonce, but his statement reguarding beyonce actually probably has more meaning than the other persons





I see what you're saying, but I think it works both ways. The person who has been composing music for twenty years has a good knowledge of music in general (hopefully), but they probably will be in the same boat as the one's bashing them and not really be in tune to what it is that Beyonce is doing. Just because they have been making music for so long doesn't mean they are going to be more in tune to all music.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6582572 - 02/18/07 06:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

jewunit said

"I see what you're saying, but I think it works both ways. The person who has been composing music for twenty years has a good knowledge of music in general (hopefully), but they probably will be in the same boat as the one's bashing them and not really be in tune to what it is that Beyonce is doing. Just because they have been making music for so long doesn't mean they are going to be more in tune to all music."


yea your right, i realized it right after i typed that whole thing out. I think it would do some classical music buffs good to somehow become interested in rock or hip-hop, because theres lots there that certainly isnt in classical music.

somehow i had it in my mind that its easier to "get" beyonce than bach or something like that. But really if your really uptight, its probably the other way around. I probably thought this because im so used to talking to college kids. With this crowd yea it probably is the case. Its cool, its in, and we grew up with it.Maybe after twenty years when i talk to people and everyones become all uptight, the conniesuers of music will be talking about the modern day's beyonce. lol...seriously though.

I always wonder if im going to turn out like my dad and have an extremely closed mind to music in 20 years. In his head theres this point that when the guitar gets a certain amount of distortion or is heavier than jimi hendrix, he wont even listen to it. Hes ruled out the majority of modern rock!

I think what this thread has taught me is that when you say a band is overrated, you are more bashing other critics who disagree, than the musicians. At least thats what im always thinking...Why do you idiots like this shit? lol.

But yea your right, theres some people that determine their opinion on music just based on being unfashionable (which is their way of being fashionable really). The kind of people that determine the music they like based on how unique it makes them. I mean if its on the top 40, id say the chances are pretty bleak its going to be something i like, and certainly nothing groundbreaking, and it can provide a decent guideline, but its deffinately not absolute either.

If you rule them out your missing out on some of the best music in my opinion. Bands like the beatles and pink floyd who no matter how many musical phases you go through, you can always rely on them for good music!

hehe i used to crusade against the Beatles and Clapton, and i still dont know if i really think theyre overrated or not. Regaurdless im a fan of both of their music.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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OfflineViveka
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6582683 - 02/18/07 07:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I largely agree with you man and after i typed up my last post, i saw that you had made a lot of the same points in your post above it. There's one thing I would disagree with though, that's the point you made about judging the merit of music by the emotional reaction of the listener. I think that idea is always overblown. Emotion is a part of music, but it's not what it's all about. Just like emotion is a part of being human but it's not the total sum of human experience.

Some of the most ridiculous, talentless noise parading as music can evoke emotion in the listener, like hate, or anger or frustration simply from being exposed to loud noise. There's also music that is played by very talented players with a high degree of complexity, but tends to evoke no emotional reaction whatsoever. To me, it's not about technicality versus emotion. Having technical skill just means you are more capable of creating music that is effective, wether that effect is a bassline that makes you want to fuck or a piece of music that contains a great degree of subtlety, or says something very specific about being human. It's like someone who is illiterate versus an experienced writer. Who will be more capable of evoking a specific reaction. In my experience, the highest forms of music tend to create an effect that is something like pure joy, elation, that almost transcends emotion and its ties to internal dialogue and life experiences. It's tough to talk about because i guess some people get that effect from music I would consider to be shit.

My basic point is that emotion is just a part of music, not the whole thing. I also think there are feelings that have nothing to do with emotion as we usually think of it that can be triggered by certain music.

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OfflineViveka
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6582817 - 02/18/07 07:49 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I totally agree with you that different music serves different purposes. I also think that just because it's popular doesn't mean that it isn't good. I think what happened in this inevitably messy discussion about subjective tastes is that the discussion partly led in the direction of judging the merits of a certain musician or group compared to all other music. And while a lot of pop music is good for what it is, music to dance or lust to, most of it is a lower form of music in terms of human potential. If all music was like Beyonce or Top 40 stuff, it would be a reflection of a society that operated basically from its animal instincts. But the whole point is that humans have a potential to be more than animals. That's what makes us human and not just animals or apes like people often say. It doesn't mean that we're inherently special, only that we have the potential to be more creative and expressive than an animal that is driven solely by its biological programming. Look at mainstream rap. It's all about creature impulses. Sappy love songs are pretty much the same thing only they're slightly more layered with thoughful ideas about heartbreak and love.

When I initially said rock and roll would be better off if the Beatles never made it big, it was from the perspective that The Beatles helped create an incentive for rock bands to create music that I don't think reflects the possibilities of human potential. People are still trying to sound just like the Beatles, but that music wasn't even that ambitious 40 years go. It wasn't very challenging music back then and it certainly isn't challenging now, but people still swoon over it, moreso than ever. I guess my opinion is that musicians should aspire to more than what will appeal to the masses. Music should advance the consciousness of the masses, not just satisfy mainstream tastes. Also, The Beatles were probably the most influential in the way they shaped how the music industry functions and I think we can agree that how it functions is not a good thing.

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: Viveka]
    #6582866 - 02/18/07 08:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think that no matter what the music industry would be loathed by many.
It's a business, that's how it works. Just to say an absence of the Beatles (I always find it interesting that passes spellcheck, by the way) would mean the music industry would be better off is obviously speculation, but I think while it might (or would) be different, it still would be loathed. And absence of the Beatles means that another band would step in and be influential, and while it may have pushed music in a different direction, it still would be a middle ground appealing band. (I know everyone's thinking "Well, the Beatles weren't middle ground, they were very controversial" I'm speaking from a pure music aspect, if you actually listen the music itself appeals to the masses because it is simple and doesn't ruffle feathers).

Really, I wouldn't like music if it weren't for Top 40 and such. If it was all just people being deep and creative and innovative, I wouldn't have stuff to listen to when I'm shootin' the shit.

And let's stop with Beyonce, she's actually a pretty damn good singer.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Most overrated band? [Re: jewunit]
    #6582931 - 02/18/07 08:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, but her body too bootylicious for ya bay.

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