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OfflineMightyCelt
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Registered: 10/30/06
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Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.)
    #6543765 - 02/08/07 10:49 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

If everything goes right, my boy Jay will have his first grain jars ready in a week or so. (thread on that grow is here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6520676#65206)

These will be his first casings, and he was planning on using Miracle Grow Moisture Control. Mainly, for the simplicity (no mixing, etc.) and also its a little more discrete than mixing up bags of coir and such in the kitchen (his roomates really wouldn't care that he's growing shrooms, they grew a few cannabis plants a while back, but he wants to keep them in the dark for security's sake). I know a lot of people here have had good luck with this product and swear by it (BlutJager comes to mind, maybe he'll chime in).

The question is this. There seems to be some disagreement over whether a casing mix should be used as is, or sterilized, or pasteurized. I have done a bit of searching, and reading on this, but its still kinda grey to me. My understanding is that pasteurizing kills of mold and such, but will leave some beneficial bacteria in the casing mix that could a) help the mycellial network through some sort of symbiotic relationship and b) help stave off other contaminants (molds, etc.). Sterilizing would obviously, kill off pretty much everything, right?

So what do you guys think about it? Should J sterilize, or pasteurize (or just use as is??). If the consensus is sterilize, well, he knows how to do that obviously, but if the consensus is to pasteurize, how exactly does one go about doing that? Any easy methods? Whats the basic procedure?

He just wanted me to find all this out for him so he's all ready when it comes time to case his colonizing rye jars... I just wish the bastard would get internet access... hell even a cell phone would be nice so i get ahold of him occaisionally!


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: MightyCelt]
    #6543787 - 02/08/07 10:59 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

I wouldn't use it as is,there is no telling what nasty molds and things are in that bag when you open it,I always pasteurize it,I have seen some people advocating sterilizing casing mix and I have seen some say that sterilizing kills the good bacteria that is helpful,I always pasteurize and have good results with it,Good luck :thumbup:


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: Blutjager]
    #6543805 - 02/08/07 11:11 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

you're not going to get a consensus on this one, we have this discussion regularly and nobody agrees

to give a correct answer, the textbook proper way to prepare a casing material is to either pasteurize, or leave completely untreated in some cases, because of the bacterial reasons you mentioned already. 

"on paper" pasteurization is the best way to go.  but lets talk about "in practice"...

cubensis is a hardy mushroom that forms pins very easily, has a relatively short cropping cycle (so your casing is only there a few weeks at most) and does a pretty good job of protecting itself.

untreated, out of the bag, works.
pasteurized, works.
sterilized, works.
microwaved, works.

its because all of these ways work that you'll never find any agreement on which way is "best"... contamination rates are probably more related to air exchange you provide (more FAE = less contamination in fruiting)... pH buffering aids as well, though you'll finxed mixed opinions and techniques/recipes there too.  until somebody demonstrates in a tightly *controlled* experiment with repeatable results that any sort of method works better than the other (talking cubes again here... these things HAVE indeed been tested of course on legal commercial crops, and the answer is it differs, depending on the species - though i believe you'll find only untreated and pasteurized casings "in industry"), i'd write it all off as a matter of preference, based on anecdotal experiences, without properly considering other variables involved.

to blur the lines even further, with some of the techniques people come up with they think they're pasteurizing when they're really getting closer to sterilizing, or think they're sterilizing when they're really only reaching pasteurization.  point being, they don't even know the difference in the end. :smile:

i've personally tried all four ways above and got fruits doing it all four ways above.  i stick with microwaving because it eases the paranoia of laying untreated casing on your substrate, but its also quick and efficient, seeing as i rarely need more casing than can fit in a large microwave safe bowl.

long story short, whatever you decide, will probably work. :smile:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: creamcorn]
    #6544239 - 02/08/07 02:00 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

long story short, whatever you decide, will probably work.





Agreed. My bitch is that when people move to edibles/medicinals they have to un-learn all their bad habits, essentially starting the learning curve all over again. With cubes, they'll fruit on just about anything, regardless of how you prepare the substrate, so they're like learning to ride a bike with training wheels. However, if you don't learn to ride without those training wheels, you'll look awfully silly someday when you grow up and have to bolt them on your harley.

That's why I suggest pasteurization of bulk substrates and casing material.

However, this has all been covered before, so do a few searches and you'll find all you ever wanted to know from both sides of this coin.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineMightyCelt
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: creamcorn]
    #6544922 - 02/08/07 05:44 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

creamcorn said:
you're not going to get a consensus on this one, we have this discussion regularly and nobody agrees




Well that explains why when I did a search, I'd come across one thread where everyone was saying to sterilize, and I'd think
"Oh, answers that question, I guess sterilizing is the way to go"
then the next thread would say you have to pasteurize, and sterilizing is the devil, and I'd think

"WTF?!?"

I think, since it was the link in BlutJagers signature that convinced Jay to go with that Rye tek, and because he uses the same casing mix J was planning on, that I will just PM Blut and see what he does to pasteurize it... I'm not too sure on what specifically that entails, but hopefully he'll fill me in. thanks for all the help guys!


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: MightyCelt]
    #6544950 - 02/08/07 05:55 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

LOL, I just nuke casing mixes in bags.
Hydrate, use a rubber band as a semi-seal.
Loose so steam can escape.
Then tightened, to cool overnight.
Most disagree with that.
But, it has served me well.
Quick, easy & toilet flush simple.


--------------------


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OfflineGrogan
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: agar]
    #6544984 - 02/08/07 06:06 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

How long in the micro of wave do you do this ?? or is it like 3 mins then wait then 3 mins.


--------------------
"Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: Grogan]
    #6545087 - 02/08/07 06:38 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

nuke 2-3 minutes, shake container around, wait about 15, zap it another 2-3, wait 15, a final zapping of 2-3 more, let cool completely (at least several hours or overnight)

microwaves vary as do the amount you might be doing at once so adjust the nuke times accordingly.  theory is to get it "hot", and keep it hot for about an hour.... but don't cook the hell out of it. :wink:  its a sorta ghetto-almost-kinda pasteurization process... could get anal about it and take temp readings between nukings and keep it in pasteurization temp ranges, but it need not be an exact science, as covered above, pretty much any way you go about it turns out OK in the long run, when all else is done correctly as well of course.

i've used the miracle gro mix myself for the past several months, when i stated above all the different ways that work i was indeed referring to it.  MGMC in the microwave is what i do 90% of the time.

i'm with RR 100% in saying its not a bad plan to consider trying a true and proper pasteurization at some point, to at least learn the process and expand your working knowledge.  at least if you goof up prepping a casing intended for cubes, no harm done, they won't really care... get it right and its a skill you can take with you towards cultivating of other species.  if you're just looking for the quick, dirty and effective for cubes, and aren't preparing huge amounts, microwave is where its at :thumbup:


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: MightyCelt]
    #6545919 - 02/08/07 09:34 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

MightyCelt said:
Quote:

creamcorn said:
you're not going to get a consensus on this one, we have this discussion regularly and nobody agrees




Well that explains why when I did a search, I'd come across one thread where everyone was saying to sterilize, and I'd think
"Oh, answers that question, I guess sterilizing is the way to go"
then the next thread would say you have to pasteurize, and sterilizing is the devil, and I'd think

"WTF?!?"

I think, since it was the link in BlutJagers signature that convinced Jay to go with that Rye tek, and because he uses the same casing mix J was planning on, that I will just PM Blut and see what he does to pasteurize it... I'm not too sure on what specifically that entails, but hopefully he'll fill me in.  thanks for all the help guys!




The answer is always simple .

Consider every answer you get on here a suggestion , not an "answer". Some suggestions may be better then others , but none the less , suggestions . The answer is the suggestion that works best for your ambient conditions and practices .:thumbup: What works for one might not work best for another . Make a few different casing mixes , prepared different ways , to see what works for you . When I used a casing layer , I used a 50/50+ sterilized mix . Had excellent results .:grin:

Good Luck

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
  :heart: Hippie Chick :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


Edited by HippieChick (02/08/07 09:44 PM)


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: HippieChick]
    #6545940 - 02/08/07 09:40 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

The problem is when you 1st start out there is a daunting amount of new information to learn and when its contradictory it is confusing,my personal vote is for pasteurizing:thumbup:


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: Blutjager]
    #6545976 - 02/08/07 09:50 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Blutjager said:
The problem is when you 1st start out there is a daunting amount of new information to learn and when its contradictory it is confusing,my personal vote is for pasteurizing:thumbup:





Then learn it all , or at least a working knowledge of it all , before beginning . I did . :wink: It's not really THAT much . Just a BUNCH of different ways to do pretty much the same few things , lol .:grin:
Don't let it intimidate ya .

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
:heart: Hippie Chick :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
Re: Casing mix: Pasteurize vs Sterilize (pros v cons; how to do each, etc.) [Re: HippieChick]
    #6545999 - 02/08/07 09:56 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

HippieChick said:
Quote:

Blutjager said:
The problem is when you 1st start out there is a daunting amount of new information to learn and when its contradictory it is confusing,my personal vote is for pasteurizing:thumbup:





Then learn it all , or at least a working knowledge of it all , before beginning . I did . :wink: It's not really THAT much . Just a BUNCH of different ways to do pretty much the same few things , lol .:grin:
Don't let it intimidate ya .

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
:heart: Hippie Chick :mushroom2:




I couldn't agree more,I jumped in headfirst too,my 1st grow was three grows at once,an in vitro poo bag grow,a double tub and dare I say it (Gasp) a pf grow....You just said it best when you said working knowledge,once you have a grasp on the working knowledge of things they practically become second nature,until than you always worry about ever 1 degree difference in temp or one jar that is lagging behind..I'm still learning when I come here and They will learn if they stick around as well,I just hate to think of people giving up before they hang around long enough to see that it really isn't all that hard once you catch on to how mushrooms think


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