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OfflineDMT_Feind
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Extraction idea
    #6524130 - 02/02/07 05:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't seen this idea mentioned or as a tek before (although it's quite possible that I have overlooked something). I was wondering - if one were to take fresh mushrooms and place in a blender with some sort of acid (lets say acetic acid) and blend well, could the resulting material (after filtration) be a relatively stable and pure form of psilocin (psilocin acetate)? I've read where fresh mushrooms contain enzymes for dephosphorylation, and that the salt form of psilocin is much more stable than freebase psilocin. It seems that this could be a relatively simple method for extracting pure psilocin in a stable form. I'd be glad to hear comments or criticisms of this idea.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: DMT_Feind]
    #6525325 - 02/03/07 01:03 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

That would just be a simple acetic acid extraction. The product is not very stable because the psilocybin is subject to enzymatic dephosphorylation during the process and the resulting psilocin is quickly oxidized. I don't think that psilocin will form a salt, it's just oxidized instead. The other problem is that the product wouldn't be very pure since aqueous extractions will extract a lot of undesired compounds.

Read up on acetic acid extractions. It's a fine way to go, but the product is neither very pure nor very stable.


-FF

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: fastfred]
    #6525793 - 02/03/07 08:27 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

...



--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:31 PM)

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OfflineDMT_Feind
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6525848 - 02/03/07 09:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There would be no basification - at least the end product would not be a freebase. The extract might need to be basified in order to allow the psilocin to be extracted and purified further with organic solvents, but would then be transformed back into a salt afterwards.

I do remember reading that the salt form of psilocin is much more stable than psilocin, is this not true?

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: DMT_Feind]
    #6526425 - 02/03/07 12:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

....


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:33 PM)

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6526815 - 02/03/07 03:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Aqueous extractions will extract a lot of stuff, not just the actives. That's why I say that the extract won't be very pure. There will be plenty of biogunk along with the actives.

Psilocin just isn't a stable compound. It oxidizes in acetic acid just like in any other aqueous solution. It's more stable in acidic rather than basic solutions, but the acidity doesn't really protect it, it's more of a case of alkalinity destroying it outright.

Try a tiny acetic acid extraction and observe the amount of bluing. Now if you were to add an antioxidant like ascorbic acid then that will do a lot to prevent oxidation. Udok recently posted in another thread a paper where they used ascorbic acid at 25mM to pretty much eliminate oxidation during analysis of plasma samples.

Also as far as the salt form of psilocin goes... I've never heard anything about that. I don't believe that psilocin will form a salt.


-FF

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Invisibledeeptraveller
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6526870 - 02/03/07 03:40 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

1)Acid - alkaline extraction it is a classical reception. It is necessary to watch constantly for ph.

2)The second classical approach - selection of solvent.
3)The third - sublimation(if it happens possible) this way is ideal for crystals of clean iodine

Now I try the second approach. I have very clean results - white crystals.
I recommend to use 190 proofs (by PF). why? because this solvent ph-neutral, psb is dissolved in it at 78' and crystallizes at cooling. You can use 200ìë 190 proofs again and again if will use a return refrigerator. And two most important things: 190 proofs - it is not poisonous also to you and it is not necessary to be the chemist.



Acid - alkaline extraction it is very interesting. I cannot tell anything that psbn and pscn can be to transforms. I think that pscn will be taken as pscn, but not as the freebasis.
_______If will assume that pscn is taken as the basis, that it will take place after neutralization of an acid by alkali? what value of ph you prefer and whether pscn agree with your choice?
In any case I recommend to use a solution of an acetic acid and domestic soda for this reaction.

For that to allocate psbn and pscn as salts it would be necessary to process mushrooms by alkali. But I too heard nothing that psbn and pscn are salts of any acids.

p\s\It is necessary to specify precisely CHEMICAL PROPERTIES of psbn and pscn.Anybody never precisely could describe to me those reactions in which these substances can enter



--------------------
we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?

Edited by deeptraveller (02/03/07 04:02 PM)

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: fastfred]
    #6527194 - 02/03/07 05:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

....


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:31 PM)

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Offlinehjalmar
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6527297 - 02/03/07 06:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Psilocin just isn't a stable compound. It oxidizes in acetic acid just like in any other aqueous solution. It's more stable in acidic rather than basic solutions, but the acidity doesn't really protect it, it's more of a case of alkalinity destroying it outright.

Try a tiny acetic acid extraction and observe the amount of bluing. Now if you were to add an antioxidant like ascorbic acid then that will do a lot to prevent oxidation. Udok recently posted in another thread a paper where they used ascorbic acid at 25mM to pretty much eliminate oxidation during analysis of plasma samples.




It is the air in and around the solvent which makes psilocin oxidize. One could flush it first with argon or work under a stream of nitrogen to prevent this.

The amino group of psilocin can form a salt with acetic acid, but if this can be isolated as a crystalline salt is a different question.

A salt form of psilocin will protect the amino group, but the 4-OH is as naked as it will ever be.

By "psilocin acetate" you probably mean the "4-acetate" instead of the "N-acetate". 4-acetoxy-DMT, which is made by the acetylation of psilocin, thus providing a protection of the hydroxyl group, will be easily deprotected in the aqueous acidic stomach environment.

The process of acetylation requires either acetic anhydride or acetyl chloride, chemicals that are closely watched by the powers that be as they are key reagents for the production of heroin.

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Offlinehjalmar
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: hjalmar]
    #6527311 - 02/03/07 06:20 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ascorbic acid would be somewhat better than acetic acid, as has already been said here, it is an antioxidant.

But for extraction of practical amounts of psilocin ( <-> extraction for chromatographic purposes) you will certainly need to work under an inert atmosphere.

Argon is recommended, as it is easily available, and heavier than air so you don't need a constant stream of gas.

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: hjalmar]
    #6527454 - 02/03/07 06:57 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

.....


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:34 PM)

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Offlinehjalmar
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6527627 - 02/03/07 07:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yep it comes in a tank used for welding.

You can buy small bottles too.

Also you wiil better work with real lab equipment for this, mayonnaise jars won't do.

A two-necked flask would be ideal for this.

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: hjalmar]
    #6527900 - 02/03/07 09:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

...


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:32 PM)

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: hjalmar]
    #6527925 - 02/03/07 09:35 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The oxygen might not have much to do with the oxidation if my theory is correct...



If my structure of psilocybeen is right then simple removal of a proton is all it would take to oxidize. Obviously O2 would be a factor, but I don't think it's necessarily required. Inert atmospheres might be overkill or simply ineffective.


-FF

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: fastfred]
    #6527981 - 02/03/07 09:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

...


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:34 PM)

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6528006 - 02/03/07 10:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why bother with removing the ascorbic acid? It functions great as a preservative and you can't really get too much vitamin C.

I'm still looking at EDTA as a preservative, but vitamin C should be a given in any extraction IMHO. Even using it just for storage of dried mushies seems like a good idea to me.


-FF

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: fastfred]
    #6528074 - 02/03/07 10:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

....


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:33 PM)

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6528414 - 02/04/07 12:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It's just vinegar, I would just throw it in some salad dressing and eat it on a salad. Think how nice that would be, a vinegar based itallian style dressing with a hint of mushroom flavor. Mmm, mmm good.

As for the ascorbic acid, I would say that it shouldn't be much of a problem. 25 mM is plenty according to the literature. That would be about 4.4 grams per L. They also said that 10 mM worked pretty good too. That's only 1.76 g/L solvent.


-FF

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: fastfred]
    #6528451 - 02/04/07 12:19 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

...


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:35 PM)

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Invisibledeeptraveller
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6528869 - 02/04/07 03:49 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

beginning extraction it is necessary to understand that you do not receive clean substance. You should establish criterion for yourselves......for example, for me it is white crystals). I think that nobody interests to allocate indol from mushrooms.

I very much like idea by fastfred about EDTA as preservative(it is the future in the present for me....as mobile phone near my head :^)

today I don't pay attention on lost pscn. why? because I have no way of an estimation of the lost opportunities and because mushrooms grow quickly, and my products of extraction as white crystals are strong pitch in a head.

for those who did not saw pscn and psbn I recommend 190proof+ascorbic acid+EDTA by FF + the activated coal (for absorption of mushroom oils) + hot qualitative filtering (why hot? because during cooling solvent here is a formation of crystals which can not pass through your filters. do it twice
It is enough for seen, but as it can be is advanced by use of precisely thought over algorithm of filtering.


p\s\the daily doze of vitamin C is 2 grammes/day. I drink it a volley and I enjoy. There is no necessity to make neutralization of this acid.


--------------------
we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea *DELETED* [Re: deeptraveller]
    #6529126 - 02/04/07 08:09 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Tamadragon

Reason for deletion: ===



--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:28 PM)

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Invisibledeeptraveller
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6530583 - 02/04/07 03:50 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

if the solvent contains water, extract can be muddy (not transparent). The activated coal can excellently replace charcoal...... it is possible to use silicagel yet (focus in that that these substances have very big internal area)

EDTA is safe. it add in food stuffs and cosmetics

if you did not saw this yet and if you have time for this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5489469/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6194866/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

we stay idle for the lack of clean psbn and pscn. if we had them before the beginning of our experiences it would be possible to investigate them prior to the beginning of extraction with those reactants which you want to apply. so it is possible to check up the guesses, and differently we are compelled to search by practical ways.
p\s\very well that you think in this direction..... I shall wait yours tek


--------------------
we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: deeptraveller]
    #6530693 - 02/04/07 04:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the links friend! :werd:


--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

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OfflineDMT_Feind
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6566905 - 02/14/07 01:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So how about shooting for a pure psilocybin salt extract rather than the psilocin extract I mentioned before? Wouldn't the salt form of psilocybin be fairly stable and moderately resistant to environmental breakdown? I think it could be done via and acid extraction with EDTA as a chelting agent to prevent the dephosphorylation of psilocybin. Nonpolar components of the mushroom could be removed beforehand with a nonpolar solvent, and any major impurities after the acid extraction could be removed by some filtration process - the pure salt might be crystallized by freezing it out of solution. What does everyone think?

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: DMT_Feind]
    #6566941 - 02/14/07 01:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> What does everyone think?

There is no salt form of psilocybin. Psilocybin is a zwitterion, meaning that it is it's own internal salt.

As far as psilocin goes, I don't think that it would really form a salt either. The charges aren't right. I've never seen any information to make me think that psilocin would form a salt.


-FF

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OfflineDMT_Feind
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: fastfred]
    #6567074 - 02/14/07 02:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ok... So how about what I said above and simply isolating the psilocybin. Wouldn't psilocybin be relatively stable in pure form... or at least stable enough to isolate, weigh, and dissolve back into solution?

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Offlinenijusan
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: DMT_Feind]
    #6585887 - 02/19/07 04:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The blending of fresh Psilocybes into an acidic "smoothie" sounds great for quick dose preparation, even if not for some method of extraction for storage (this jury seems to still be out on the issue).

The gastric juices are strongly basic; would this enhance or detract from absorbing a useful ionic form of either psilocin or psilocybin pretreated with an acidic maceration?

Shee'it, no materials at hand to bioassay a few trials. Have to leave it to others to do the heavy lifting.

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea *DELETED* [Re: nijusan]
    #6586516 - 02/19/07 06:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Tamadragon

Reason for deletion: .. ..



--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6589470 - 02/20/07 01:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

After reading about lemon juice extraction, and a suggestion to freeze the mushrooms to break the cell walls, I tried an experiment.

About 55 grams of fresh mushrooms were frozen to -5*F for a couple days. Freezing them turned them jet black. They were then thawed, and blended (with a hand-held blender) with some lemon juice and distilled water.

I consumed this and felt no effects. Zero.

Possibilities:
1) Freezing somehow destroyed the actives.
2) These particular mushrooms were not potent.
3) Something about the blending allowed the actives to oxidize. Having ruptured the cell walls by freezing may been a factor, as the cell walls would normally protect against oxidization.

I lean toward #3.

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OfflineTamadragon
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Re: Extraction idea *DELETED* [Re: pokermush]
    #6589527 - 02/20/07 02:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Tamadragon

Reason for deletion: --



--------------------
~Tama

Peace

I get real lonely

Edited by Tamadragon (02/20/07 02:15 PM)

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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Extraction idea [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6589803 - 02/20/07 03:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I originally tried this because I was trying to stretch the shrooms into 2 doses. They were frozen whole in a small sealed jar. No other liquid was added before freezing, because I wanted the ice to form long crystals and cut the cell walls, something that is inhibited if they are submersed in a liquid. Maybe a better approach would be to heat it up gently with the lid on until steam expels the air, then freeze.

I added water to aid in blending. The blending still didn't work so well, as the mushroom fibers tended to wrap around the blades rather than get cut. I probably would have been much better to chop them up very fine first.

If I recall correctly, I had about 1 part distilled water to about 1 part lemon juice from the bottle.

I had no stomach upset, but I don't get that when I eat mushrooms anyway. But the frozen shrooms were pretty damn gross, and I normally like the taste of shrooms. It was fear-factoresqe :laugh:

Something I'm interested in is how various processes affect psilocin, psilocybin, and baeocystin(sp), the 3 actives in cubes. There is a lot of dispute about the effects of heat on the actives, but my experiment leads me to believe they are highly susceptible to oxidation.

I suspect that cooking mushrooms in a coating of vegetable oil will damage the cell walls enough to allow digestion, while the oil protects from oxidation. Even if cooking destroys some actives, that may be offset by better digestion/absorption of remaining actives. I think my next batch will be cooked. :smile:

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