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Offlinevigilant_mind
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LSD and neurotoxicity
    #6518638 - 02/01/07 02:00 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This weekend I am planning on taking two hits of LSD. It will be my first trip. The prospect of a psychedelic experience (this will be my first one ever) excites me but I am still concerned about brain damage. So far I have found no scientific articles conveying the damage caused by LSD use. From what I have gathered, LSD is a relatively benign chemical in respect to organic brain damage.

Does LSD cause brain damage at all? If so, would it cause substantial damage from a single trip?


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6518680 - 02/01/07 02:20 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Part of the reason you haven't found much info is because of the relative lack of studies of the effects of LSD on the brain; and the main reason for that is it's legal status.

Here's what I know. First I'm not aware of any data which demonstrates that LSD is neurotoxic in the sense it kills neurons/nerve cells. LSD has diverse effects on the brain. For example, it affects a number of different serotonin receptor sub-types, and is known to be an agonist -- meaning it stimulates neurons as opposed to inhibiting them (antagonist). The LSD molecule binds to a certain kind of serotonin receptor which initiates a chain of intracellular effects leading to gene expression within the DNA of the cell body of the neuron.
I know a bit more technical stuff, but all I'm going to say is don't worry about "brain damage". Brain damage is a blanket term. There is little question in my mind LSD changes the functioning, structure of, and connection between very specific neurons in very specific ways.
What does this mean for you?
It means you're going to have a psychedelic experience which will obviously leave memories with you and may shift your perspective on things. The worst case scenario for long-term effects would be the possibility of a few flashbacks down the road and a smaller possibility of permanent (though manageable) changes in your vision (i.e. lasting minor hallucinations or visual disturbances.)


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Land_Crab]
    #6518685 - 02/01/07 02:26 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I've heard that flashbacks are not precipitated by LSD staying in your system; rather, that flashbacks of LSD trips are a form of PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) in which you are traumatized by a bad trip.

Is there any validity in this?


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6518691 - 02/01/07 02:32 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Well (to be technical), flashbacks wouldn't be the result of LSD staying in your system since it's metabolized quite rapidly anyway. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

I haven't heard of the thing you mentioned. Speaking from personal experience (which is not statistically significant of course) I've never had a bad trip on LSD yet have experienced some flashbacks which did seem to happen out of the blue.
- But yes it's definitely true that a bad trip could be traumatic. Do you know the strength of these hits? Maybe you should start with 1..?


Edited by Land_Crab (02/01/07 02:33 AM)


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OfflineCompass
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Land_Crab]
    #6518744 - 02/01/07 02:59 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

My biggest concern would be a bad trip. I myself wouldn't be worried about brain damage in comparison.


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Offlinethehandtruck
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Compass]
    #6518772 - 02/01/07 03:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

www.erowid.org look for LSD myths. Come on fuck at least put some effort into it. Why would you even take something that you know causes even the most minute brain damage?


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OfflinePDU
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: thehandtruck]
    #6518852 - 02/01/07 04:06 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thehandtruck said:
Why would you even take something that you know causes even the most minute brain damage?




curiosity and youthful rebellion.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: PDU]
    #6519161 - 02/01/07 10:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Drinking causes quite a bit of damage to ones body, yet its americas favorite pastime.


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Invisiblefigment
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: kaniz]
    #6519239 - 02/01/07 11:13 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

brain damage....who cares. my brain works just fine and i've killed A TON of brain cells especially having experienced 2 od's throughout my life along with the ingestion of LARGE amounts of every drug imaginable.

now i belong in an international honor society at the university i go to - straight a's.

so there you have it. FUCK brain damage. take your acid and go into it with a good mind set. you'll be cool. good luck.:thumbup:


--------------------


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Offlinezootroid
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6519796 - 02/01/07 02:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
I've heard that flashbacks are not precipitated by LSD staying in your system; rather, that flashbacks of LSD trips are a form of PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) in which you are traumatized by a bad trip.

Is there any validity in this?




That's generally how people would get them, I believe so anyways. I did mushrooms 20 odd times and acid 6 or 7 times before I experienced my first bad trip. That was on mushrooms. I know have flashbacks when I smoke weed. It's usually caused from over thinking about the bad experience though.

Anyways, don't worry about it and just enjoy yourself! :smile:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: zootroid] * 1
    #6519869 - 02/01/07 03:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

LSD has been given to something like 40,000 people in a medical environment. In none of those cases was any organic brain damage detected. So far even the government doesn't list brain damage as a potential concern, just bad trips.

John Halpern recently finished a study on Navajo peyote users showing no cognitive impairment whatsoever and actually higher emotional intelligence than the non-peyote controls.

From my experience psychedelics are NOT nuerotoxic. I don't feel I have had any permanent brain damage from one.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineXtals
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6520181 - 02/01/07 05:23 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Does LSD cause brain damage at all?




LSD is not known to cause neuronal cell necrosis.

Part of the reason you haven't found much info is because of the relative lack of studies of the effects of LSD on the brain;


What relative lack of studies? There are a lot of studies on LSD and the brain (even in a relative sense).

From my experience psychedelics are NOT nuerotoxic. I don't feel I have had any permanent brain damage from one.

Well, this may be hard for you to accept, but you can't feel whether or not LSD has neurotoxic effects. Your experience hardly means anything. What you just said is silly. Please don't come to such ridiculous conclusions.

I can't believe you would even say something so absurd. I don't think most people would come to the conclusion, on the basis of drinking a beer or two, that alcohol can kill brain cells. I would be laughing out loud if what you said wasn't so absurd that I find it irritating.


Edited by Xtals (02/01/07 05:31 PM)


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Offlinegooddrugguy
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Xtals]
    #6520260 - 02/01/07 05:51 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

While the chemistry involved is arguable, LSD can change the way you percieve the world long after a trip. Most "damage" done is, in my opinion, due to the fact that you have explored other parts of your mind you were not previously aware of. You don't forget what it is like to exist in this other state of concousness, and in my case the awareness of these background brain functions has changed the way I think.

In the area of actually hurting your brain, I have mixed opinions. I have definately heard of people being "fried" from overuse (tripping multiple times a week). HPPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder) is a disorder where you are constantly "tripping", at least in the area of visuals. A for sure explanation for why this happens is non-existant, due to the fact that LSD is a class-A substance. Reasons I have heard include that the brain stems that release the neurotransmitters may be damaged. This may be possible: use of a psychedelic causes you to flood your mind with neurotransmitters, and abuse could damage the stems that, on LSD, flood the brain with these chemicals.


Edited by gooddrugguy (02/01/07 05:53 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: gooddrugguy]
    #6520370 - 02/01/07 06:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

if you never went to kindergarten you would not have little useful memory of it. you would probably have no flashbacks of kindergarten.

if you get a real acid flashback, (recall of acid memory triggered by some association) it means your brain is not broken - not the other way around

sure it is benign, but I would be cautious about 2 for a first time.
only because I am cautious, I like to enter water slowly.


--------------------


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Offlineleafing
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6520403 - 02/01/07 06:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

no



to the whole sbject


--------------------



"The psychedelic experience is just the temporary disruption of psychophysics and the telepathic emergence of synchronic linguistics "


~Leafing~


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6520753 - 02/01/07 08:08 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

LSD is one of the safest drugs physiologically. It's easier to OD on aspirin.  The only risk is psychological, and that is actually a very minute risk if you know what you're doing, and know yourself.  Only those with underlying psychiatric illnesses such as schizophrenia really need to worry.

LSD causes NO brain damage, whatsoever.  Yes it will change you, but most likely for the good (it's what you make of it), ANY experience of this magnitude will change you. You're going to experience everything, including yourself from a totally different perspective, so yeah that can and probably will change you at least a little bit.  However, that's not damage, that's the effect of a powerful experience.  You will change and grow regardless of whether or not you use drugs; such is the nature of life.

I've taken a fair amount of psychedelics, and pretty strong doses countless times. This has had a positive impact on me. I also know people who've taken WAY more than I have, and the impact on them was also very good. I have friends who've taken 100 + hits on countless occasions, and these people are not fried.....they are brilliant, they are very open and very loving. They embrace life more than any other people I know. They also aren't crazy; on the contrary in fact, they are literally & honestly the most SANE people I know.


Now, doses like that are not for everyone....I'm not saying you should eat a sheet. Basically, LSD is not a "drug" per say; it's a tool, a very powerful tool for exploring yourself/your mind, and very spiritual for many folks. Know this, understand this, and respect it accordingly and you'll be fine.


Happy trails and much love brother.

:heartpump: :sunny:


--------------------


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Xtals]
    #6520808 - 02/01/07 08:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Xtals said:
Part of the reason you haven't found much info is because of the relative lack of studies of the effects of LSD on the brain;


What relative lack of studies? There are a lot of studies on LSD and the brain (even in a relative sense).




I am very interested in the precise mechanisms of action of LSD in the brain. Please post links if you have some.


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OfflineXtals
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Land_Crab]
    #6523244 - 02/02/07 02:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Some of these you will need access through a library (ie. a subscription online or you have to go to a library). Others can be access freely through Pubmed.

The first post in the thread "LSD binding to 5HT2a" in the ODD forum is available for download in .PDF format. It was written by D E Nichols (sic?).

I'm only going to post a few references, because I have about a hundred papers on this kind of thing on my hard-drive and I'm not going to compile a list for you.

Aghajanian, G K. LSD and CNS Transmission. Annual Review of Pharmacology. 12, pp. 157 - 168. (1972)

The Annual Review series is great and I could post this article later, but the point is that this article was written in 1972, is exactly the kind of article you want and it is a literature review (meaning that it reviews a number of articles on the topic (in this case 63).

Frankel, P S. and Cunningham, K A. The hallucinogen d-lysergic acid diethylamide (d-LSD) the immediate-early gene c-Fos in rat forebrain. Brain Research. 958, pp. 251 - 260. (2002)

On second thought, this will take me way too long. Please search pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pmc

That will give you links to all of the articles that are *freely available.* The query "LSD and CNS transmission" gave 27 results. You need to play around a bit to figure out how to find related articles, but that's exactly what you do. If you do have a subscription to science journal through libraries, then you'll see that there are tons available. A query for "lysergic acid diethylamide" gave 279 hits for free articles.


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OfflineXtals
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Xtals]
    #6523265 - 02/02/07 02:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Also, just for example, search for an article titled "LSD Therapy in Dutch Psychiatry" and you will find a 20 page review.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: LSD and neurotoxicity [Re: Xtals]
    #6523477 - 02/02/07 03:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I would suggest starting with the article posted above by Nichols. I have seen it posted somewhere around here.

Aghajanian's work with electrophysiology is (in my opinion) difficult to read if you are not an electrophysiologist. In any event, he has a review written in 1999 which is much more up to date than the 1972 one.

Even as recently as yesterday a relatively unknown group came out with a paper claiming to have found the holy grail of hallucinogen signaling. There were some flawas with that paper however, and while it is an advance, it does shed some light on cross-talk between G-protein receptor signaling pathways.

Some of the other things mentoined in that paper though (such as c-Fos induction) aren't too exciting. If you've worked with c-Fos it's a sensitive protein which cna be induced by yelling "boo!" at a laboratory animal (as well as hallucinogens).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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