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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Kickle]
    #6510443 -

Kickle said:
coopypants said:
physicians study the body physiologists study the mind.



Psychologists** They are the ones who study the mind. Physio = physical aspects.


spell check on that one, i swaer :-)

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: moho456]
    #6510531 -

i think maybe you're basing too much on that guy they talk about in the interview. I mean that is an extreme, and not many people even here would take what that guy says to be the real deal. to me he sounds a little schizophrenic, just by the way he has such an in depth kind of "world" that he has created for himself.


some people find it very spiritual and enlightening and almost like a religious thing. at the same time try to remember there are people who base their faith on events written about in a book. im not saying either of them are wrong or bad or anything, as either can be an amazing thing if you actively believe and get involved.

lets keep debating this, but try not to make it so personal.


--------------------
"For everything to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, I had only to wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of hate."

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: coopypants]
    #6510533 -

What kinda of fagot do you have to be to engage in such a topic that is fruitless and quiet frankly mundane.. take your pussy eating, pickle puffing, psychedelic spun asses some where else and bitch about, whether psychedelic experiences are real or just a malfunction of our neuro transmitters interacting with psilocybin... Of course psychedelic experience's are real.. THEY ARE A DIRECT RESULT OF A CHEMICAL INTERACTING WITH THE BRAIN.. WHY IS THAT SO MOTHER FUCKING HARD TO UNDERSTAND YOU, QUEER ASS MUNCHING SONS OF BITCHES!



LOL just playing I'm pretty stoned, What do i know..

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: CaptainCrunch]
    #6510597 -

I guess Captain crunch is right, what I am trying to figure out is not going to get me anywhere, though psychologists and physicists are probably better equipped to debate my psychedelic spun ass theory. But I like, it feels right some how.


--------------------
Every thing I type is a figment of my skitso dreams, I have never actually done any of the things I may type about, nor will I ever do them.

I don't remember when it was that I fell asleep. It must of been long long ago. I don't remember for what time I set my alarm clock, I'm not sure how long I've been dreaming now. But I guess thats whats important, that I am dreaming. I think I want to wake up, but I am never sure. I just hope I will remember this dream when I do, I just hope I will remember who I was, this little bug on earth.

Known as "can_a_bus_dream" at http://futurehi.net/index.html

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: CaptainCrunch]
    #6510608 -

CaptainCrunch said:
QUEER ASS MUNCHING SONS OF BITCHES!


ty


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510613 -

I used to believe deeply that psychedelic experiences were something bigger than just the effects of a drug.

I think people should read this article, I'm prepared for massive criticism...

Don't get me wrong, I still like shrooms once in awhile, love growing them, love mushrooms, but come on... When you get down to it, its just a drug that creates "a false reality created by a misfiring brain".

I do believe the use of psychedelics can be very helpful however, if used under a staged environment and in the presence of a professional psychiatrist leading you.

I personally have been reading about new quantum theories (super string theory, M-Theory etc.) and I do believe that one day physics will be able to explain the deepest questions man has pondered... I highly suggest reading 'The Elegant Universe' by Brian Greene, for those of you who haven't already... truly fascinating.



i do agree with you on some point, but overall, using physchedelics for me has deffinetly had a positive impact in my life. They have made my life more meaningful and i realize to savor ever moment i can at the moment. Im just a happy guy due to these wonderful gifts.


--------------------
:yinyang: *Good Vibes* :yinyang:

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #6510615 -

I try...

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: CaptainCrunch]
    #6510629 -

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been trying to remember who wrote that book. I hope its in the library. Gota go return "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku, and "Zen, the ultimate experience" by Allan Watts.

Ive also wanted to read "Programming the Universe" any idea who wrote that?


--------------------
Every thing I type is a figment of my skitso dreams, I have never actually done any of the things I may type about, nor will I ever do them.

I don't remember when it was that I fell asleep. It must of been long long ago. I don't remember for what time I set my alarm clock, I'm not sure how long I've been dreaming now. But I guess thats whats important, that I am dreaming. I think I want to wake up, but I am never sure. I just hope I will remember this dream when I do, I just hope I will remember who I was, this little bug on earth.

Known as "can_a_bus_dream" at http://futurehi.net/index.html

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510683 -

MustardMan said:
Can you find a single certifiedphysician who advocates psychedelic drug use? Maybe a few nuts, but the average doctor, no. This is for a reason. They know that it is merely a drug that poisons your brain and body--you're body temporarily doesn't work to its maximum efficiency.



www.maps.org
www.hefter.org

The reason doctors don't advocate psychedelics is because they are illegal, and furthermore it is illegal to do research with them so nobody knows anything about them who wasn't around 30 years ago.

There are however many psychiatrists and researchers who are interested in using MDMA for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Depression and Terminal Anxiety. Psilocybin is currently being studied for use with OCD and people with terminal cancer. Both LSD and psilocybin are very promising medicines for cluster headaches, and LSD as well as the african root Ibogaine have shown miraculous success for substance addiction. Even Ketamine is supposed to be a very effective tool for treating depression.

In fact LSD, Psilocybin and MDMA all entered our society through psychiatry and research. Physicians were using these before anyone else.

As for them poisoning your body, I would stay away from coffee and alcohol too. Actually both alcohol and nicotine are far worse for your body and mind than any psychedelic. Tylenol and Advil can damage your liver, and antidressants can mess up your brain too. Most people don't call these poisons. Even too much antiobiotics can kill you.

Lastly, as others have stated psychedelics don't cause true hallucinations. The guy who wrote the article has obviously never used one, and his entire justification for criticizing them is because Daniel Pinchbeck sounds too New Age for him. Well what about Albert Hoffman, or Aldous Huxley (whom he praises) or Alexander Shulgin? These people all used psychedelics and non of them believe in the Mayan calender.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510723 -

MustardMan said:
Don't get me wrong, I still like shrooms once in awhile, love growing them, love mushrooms, but come on... When you get down to it, its just a drug that creates "a false reality created by a misfiring brain".


I have a problem with what you're saying.

Your view of reality, whether or not you're under the influence of a drug, is always an interpretation of reality. Full blown hallucinations are relatively rare on psychedelics, meaning that most people recognize that the altered perceptions caused by psycehdelics are just distortions or altered perceptions. Generally, psychedelics just change the way you see reality and don't cause you to see an entirely false view of reality.

To say that psychedelics cause neurons to "misfire" is more of a value judgement than an accurate statement. Just because a psychedelic changes how neurons operate doesn't mean that their new behaviour is 'wrong.' I do think that psychedelics do tend to cause more misperceptions than one would experience while sober, but users are typically aware that this is the case. Whether or not someone thinks that their altered view is more or less valid isn't only a function of the drug: some people go into the experiences expecting a "deeper" (or more truthful) view of reality and some don't.

Quote:
I personally have been reading about new quantum theories (super string theory, M-Theory etc.) and I do believe that one day physics will be able to explain the deepest questions man has pondered...


I doubt it. I think that science can't touch many of the most compelling questions that humans ask themselves, such as, "Why does anything exist?" Or "What is morally right or morally wrong?" Science produces our best working models of the universe and that's all. Science can propose a theory of everything but it can never provide proof of a theory of everything. Though questions relating to how the physical world works are compelling, I don't think that they represent the most compelling questions of existence.


Quote:
I highly suggest reading 'The Elegant Universe' by Brian Greene, for those of you who haven't already... truly fascinating.


Personally, I thought the book was okay, but not that good.

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: coopypants]
    #6510726 -

coopypants said:
But how and why these brain changes translate into psychedelic experiences are questions as difficult as the mind-body problem itself."


Thank for the reply. I have done plenty of reading, but it still seems to me that exactly how these drugs cause the changes in consciousness that we experience remains a bit of a mystery... :smile:

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510743 -

MustardMan said:
You're joking right?

Can you find a single certifiedphysician who advocates psychedelic drug use? Maybe a few nuts, but the average doctor, no.


Are you just pulling this out of your ass?

Physicians probably don't advocate psychedelic drug use because research on them has been so limited that there is noknown medical application for these drugs. However, there is credible evidence to suggest that some psychedelic drugs may have medical uses. Though physicians generally may not advocate psychedelic drug use, many scientists certainly feel that there is good justification for further research into the possible medical applications of these drugs.

BTW, ketamine is a psychedelic drug and physicians do advocate its use, only not as a psychedelic. When a physician administers ketamine to a human, the dose is roughly ten times higher than what is needed for full blown psychedelic effects.

Quote:
This is for a reason. They know that it is merely a drug that poisons your brain and body--


That is nonsense.

Quote:
But you can't argue with the science that tells us how the drug works, and its effects on the brain.


I'm a scientist and I'm telling you that what you're saying about "misfiring" isn't really accurate because it is a value judgement. Scientists tend to describe the effects on psychedelics in terms that don't imply "right" or "wrong": for example, LSD is often described as a 5HT2A partial agonist, not as a drug that causes "brain misfiring."

Quote:
I've asked several physicians about psychedelics and they've all told me the same thing. It is a mind-altering drug, and nothing more.


Sounds like an appeal to authority to me (which is a logical fallacy).

What did you ask them?

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: moho456]
    #6510747 -

moho456 said:
LSD is the best treatment available for cluster headaches and migraines



I've seen evidence suggesting that it may treat these ailments but nothing even remotely convincing that it is "the best treatment available." Maybe people on both sides of the argument should stop exaggerating to such silly extents.

Also, someone else asked, "How many physicians have smoked DMT?"
It doesn't matter. Personal experience with these drugs does not mean that you are in a priveledged position to know whether or not they are poisoning your brain. You can't feel your brain being poisoned and the only way to determine whether or not a drug is killing brain cells is to check with a microscope. Please stop making such ridiculous arguments.

Also, regarding what science can tell us about consciousness, well, it can tell us what the physiological correlates of consciousness are. I read an interesting article about a small group of neurons that fired every time someone's perception of a visual illusion shifted. If you don't find science's explanations about consciousness or how psychedelics work, then I will only remind you that science produces the best working models of reality that we have. Whether or not you are satisfied with the extent of those models doesn't change this. Also, if you aren't satisfied with some of the explanations about the workings of psychedelic drugs then I suspect you haven't done enough research. I have been blown away by the research being done on 5HT systems, schizophrenia and NMDA antagonists. Lately, a link between NMDA antagonists (like PCP, ketamine and DXO) and "classical" hallucinogens has been found. Much of this research was stimulated by interest in finding novel antipsychotics. Nonetheless, whether you like it or not, science still produces the best working models of the world, including consciousness that we have. If you aren't satisfied, then why don't you try contributing to the research instead of complaining?

Also, I don't see how you can babble about someone else's post being scientifically meaningless and then go on to say "you make your own reality." Do I really need to point out to you how meaningless that statement is? If you make your own reality, then what is the point in arguing over anything? Nobody would possibly be able to demonstrate any statement false in such a case, so that statement is useless. Really, what you seem to be trying to do is to simultaneously criticize someone else's position while putting yourself in a position that doesn't need to be defended, because it can't be shown wrong by default. If you want to have meaningful conversations, then I suggest that you acknowledge that you share reality.

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Xtals]
    #6510762 -

And then God said,"LET THERE BE FAGOT'S" ^^^^^

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Cymbaline]
    #6510784 -

Cymbaline said:
coopypants said:
But how and why these brain changes translate into psychedelic experiences are questions as difficult as the mind-body problem itself."


Thank for the reply. I have done plenty of reading, but it still seems to me that exactly how these drugs cause the changes in consciousness that we experience remains a bit of a mystery... :smile:


Yes.  Though I have a point to make about this.  Many people (and I don't mean here) have pointed to the fact that what consciousness is seems extremely hard to define and thus it would seem that scientific hypotheses regarding consciousness can't be tested.  However, it has been pointed out that we can still ask ourselves, "What are the physical correlates of consciousness?" and form scientific hypotheses regarding that particular question.  Even if this doesn't seem to tell us what consciousness is, exactly, it would still be possible to produce accurate models of how consciousness correlates to physical reality (and thus predictions about consciousness could be made).  This, in principle, is how psychopharmacology can be seen and (as I stated before), whether you like it or not science still gives us the best model of consciousness that we have, precisely because scientists are their own fiercest critics and because hypotheses must be testable.

The cool thing is that more research on psychedelic drugs will allow us to shed more light on consciousness.  That is at least one reason that many scientists wish that research with psychedelic drugs was opened up.

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Xtals]
    #6511396 -

Xtals said:
moho456 said:
LSD is the best treatment available for cluster headaches and migraines



I've seen evidence suggesting that it may treat these ailments but nothing even remotely convincing that it is "the best treatment available." Maybe people on both sides of the argument should stop exaggerating to such silly extents.




lsd itself may not be the best for headaches, but ergot derivitivies (which are almost identical) have been used to treat headaches for a while now without the side effects of the walls melting.

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6511444 -

I really can't understand why you chose this particular article to support your view that "psychedelics damage the brain"

This was not a scientific study. It was the ramblings of someone who had an agenda.

To claim that this is "proof" of any kind is simply ignorant.

......and yea, you were stupid for posting it


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: niteowl]
    #6511475 -

Captain Crunch, there's no need to base an argument on personal attacks, we've easily nuked this guy's bigotry with logic alone.

Good job everyone, for helping this guy see his view as the selfishness it is.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6511717 -

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru2.html

If it creates a temporary false reality but improves upon quality of life what does it matter? No prescription drugs (or non-prescription) create a "true" reality but they continue to get prescribed. Hell, antidepressants seem to create a longer false reality by altering the way your brain functions, but these things are okay. Honestly, you say you love shrooms, but you go on lambasting them, can you at least explain that one to all of us?


--------------------
!

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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6511763 -

MustardMan said:
http://actionskeptics.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-you-should-not-use-psychedelic.html

When you get down to it, its just a drug that creates "a false reality created by a misfiring brain".




This is the kind of anti-drug propaganda that creates un-needed fear of plant teachers.

The bottom line is entheogens open up a higer perception that some can attain without them, but it is true and real-more real than this guy is able to accept.

Please don't attempt to project your confused reality on the rest of us. You are really preaching to the wrong crowd. Mushrooms get us all in touch with inner truth. Anybody who tries to challenge that comes off as rather ignorant.

Your website is horseshit. No wait-horseshit is useful!

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