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OfflineMustardMan
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Article regarding psychedelics
    #6510058 - 01/29/07 08:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

http://actionskeptics.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-you-should-not-use-psychedelic.html


I used to believe deeply that psychedelic experiences were something bigger than just the effects of a drug.

I think people should read this article, I'm prepared for massive criticism...

Don't get me wrong, I still like shrooms once in awhile, love growing them, love mushrooms, but come on... When you get down to it, its just a drug that creates "a false reality created by a misfiring brain".

I do believe the use of psychedelics can be very helpful however, if used under a staged environment and in the presence of a professional psychiatrist leading you.

I personally have been reading about new quantum theories (super string theory, M-Theory etc.) and I do believe that one day physics will be able to explain the deepest questions man has pondered... I highly suggest reading 'The Elegant Universe' by Brian Greene, for those of you who haven't already... truly fascinating.


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Wild Psilocybe Ovoideocystidiata

Cultivated Cubensis

Edited by MustardMan (01/29/07 09:03 PM)

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510083 - 01/29/07 09:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MustardMan said:
its just a drug that creates "a false reality created by a misfiring brain".




You claim a lot. Why should anyone believe you? What makes you so sure?

Misfiring brain, don't you mean neurons? We don't have room for getting that shit wrong. I mean if your gonna get on the case of psychedelisists, at least get it right.


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No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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OfflineMustardMan
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: mecreateme]
    #6510111 - 01/29/07 09:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You act as if I'm the only one stating these claims. Nearly all physicians claim this, and science supports their claims. Are you ready to throw out science like a religious fanatic?


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Wild Psilocybe Ovoideocystidiata

Cultivated Cubensis

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510131 - 01/29/07 09:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Did you post anything to back up anything? I don't think so.

C'mon put a little backbone into it, show me something.

You make a claim that others claim these things, sounds pretty hollow to me. Assuming things makes an ass out of you and me.

You really bought into that blogger that you posted didn't you? You realize he is spewing criticism just like anybody that spews bullshit, right?


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510136 - 01/29/07 09:17 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ok... I quote

"Physically changing how your brain works so that you hallucinate talking green elephants having sex with a female Jesus doesn't "expand your consciousness.""

Uhm... what? Most of the article was along these lines. The guy was clearly biased to one side, and seems to believe that all the psychedelic experience is, is hallucinations.


Again I quote...

"What amazes me is the ability of people like this to completely understand what's happening when they take acid or peyote or whatever the hell else they want to damage their brains with, but still interpret the entire thing as some sort of "psychic experience" or "growth of consciousness.""

Where is his evidence that any substance he mentions, or infers, damages the brain? He backs up nothing, and uses a LOT of foul language and insults. It seems to be his biased opinion on the matter.

I read it, I saw nothing that I haven't heard said before, and it was crude at best (IMO).


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Kickle]
    #6510147 - 01/29/07 09:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Very crude and very biased. I think the guy was pissed off at the Colbert Report or some shit and he obviously had his own agenda to push.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Kickle]
    #6510153 - 01/29/07 09:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

As a side note - who really cares if what occurs physically is a misfiring? Who is to say that the way they fire 'naturally' is the only true way?

If you read what you do, you must believe in alternate dimensions and the sort. Who is to say that what is natural there, isn't completely different from what it is here.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineMustardMan
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: mecreateme]
    #6510170 - 01/29/07 09:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You're joking right?

Can you find a single certifiedphysician who advocates psychedelic drug use? Maybe a few nuts, but the average doctor, no. This is for a reason. They know that it is merely a drug that poisons your brain and body--you're body temporarily doesn't work to its maximum efficiency.

I guess it was stupid of me to post this, it is impossible to change the minds of those who are convinced (due to their personal love of the drug and want for believing it as conscious opener). Sure, if I were a primitive native in south America with no knowledge of the sciences, I would believe the drug to be so... But you can't argue with the science that tells us how the drug works, and its effects on the brain. I've asked several physicians about psychedelics and they've all told me the same thing. It is a mind-altering drug, and nothing more.


--------------------
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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510191 - 01/29/07 09:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No, I am not joking. You are stating your opinion.

I can guarantee there are physicians who advocate the substance, however, I would not imagine them doing so publicaly (as it is illegal).

I am more than open for discussion on the subject, but what you posted has nothing scientific in it at all.

And your "evidence" from personal experience is also not convincing to me. Just as, clearly, the experience of the majority of this board is not convincing to you.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510231 - 01/29/07 09:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, you talked to physicians. I have, too. So I guess since you have talked to a few, you have an accurate view of all doctors everywhere?

Take your dogma somewhere else, bro.

You wanna address anything from any of my posts or are you gonna let if all fly in the wind like your avatar, Wind man?

You made the post, so why don't you provide anything to back yourself up, besides a biased blog?


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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OfflineMr_Spliff420
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510252 - 01/29/07 09:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

My interpretation of what happens when tripping on tryptamines is this...

LSD, Psilicybin, and Mescaline are all tryptamines, and if my memory serves me well I believe Serotonin is also in this class of drugs. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter, what happens when your neurons fire is this, your neurons are shaped like arms, they have "fingers" dendrites and an arm which connects the dendrites to the main cell, when two neurons have their dendrites close enough and Serotonin passes between them a spark goes off. Well since Serotonin and the tryptamines are shaped the same the brain allows them to pass into the "key hole" and create a spark. So with a flood of keys you get a flood of sparks, so yes you could see it to be a miss fire. I see it more like over drive. Like putting NOS into your car sort of, and sometimes that causes malfunctions i.e. hallucinations.

But it takes a trained and disciplined person to put these malfunctions aside, to see through the hallucinations. And if you read some "tripping guides" or listen to Mckenna's elves they advise you "don't be amazed". I ask myself some questions sometimes "what is that I see?", a recreation. "Well what is this recreation?", neurons firing in my head due to sensory input. "Does a chair look like firing neurons and chemical reactions?", no, it has dimension, texture, and color."How is this done?", I'm not sure but sure seems like a sort of virtual reality."Where is this virtual reality that represents the outer world?" I am not sure."Is it in my head?"."Who does the looking?""Who or what is the thinker of these thoughts?", certainly they are not the same.

Sometimes I think that maybe this virtual reality place is in the making, a place we are all participating in creating, a place we go to when we die. I begin to think about DMT, and how its released in the brain when we die, and all the accounts of people saying they felt they may never come back, or entities saying that its not your time to people during Ayhausca and DMT voyages. I start to think about how DMT, Psilicybin, LSD, Mescaline, and Serotonin are all so closely related. I begin to think about quantum tunneling and where electrons go when they do, matter is information and after all isn't that what we are, as a consciousness, a culmination of information.

It all seems so strange, yet so beautiful, and yes I admit I want to believe it, though I am cautious.

Please correct me if I am absolutely wrong in any of this, the facts I mean, about neurotransmitters and all, and please point me in a direction so I can further my knowledge.


--------------------
Every thing I type is a figment of my skitso dreams, I have never actually done any of the things I may type about, nor will I ever do them.

I don't remember when it was that I fell asleep. It must of been long long ago. I don't remember for what time I set my alarm clock, I'm not sure how long I've been dreaming now. But I guess thats whats important, that I am dreaming. I think I want to wake up, but I am never sure. I just hope I will remember this dream when I do, I just hope I will remember who I was, this little bug on earth.

Known as "can_a_bus_dream" at http://futurehi.net/index.html

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Offlinemoho456
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Kickle]
    #6510258 - 01/29/07 09:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Dude your a lopsided idiot. These people asked for a simple source other than some dude's opinion he posted on a blog. I havent ever done a psychedelic in my life so don't even try to tell me what I believe in. You think you can just waltz in here with a holier than thou attitude and just shut everyone down.

Woo Woo - Here comes the clue train:

LSD is the best treatment available for cluster headaches and migraines, and in fact many physicians recommend it, but like previously mentioned they cant publicly endorse it or it would cost them their jobs! Oh yeah - and you'll probably just write them off as "nuts" anyhow, since they don't support what you or your blogger friend say.

As for this book - good for that guy. If you don't like it don't buy it. I wouldn't buy it myself, but I wouldn't discount that something could happen in 2012.


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Offlinefunkface
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510301 - 01/29/07 09:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MustardMan said:
You're joking right?

Can you find a single certifiedphysician who advocates psychedelic drug use? Maybe a few nuts, but the average doctor, no. This is for a reason. They know that it is merely a drug that poisons your brain and body--you're body temporarily doesn't work to its maximum efficiency.

I guess it was stupid of me to post this, it is impossible to change the minds of those who are convinced (due to their personal love of the drug and want for believing it as conscious opener). Sure, if I were a primitive native in south America with no knowledge of the sciences, I would believe the drug to be so... But you can't argue with the science that tells us how the drug works, and its effects on the brain. I've asked several physicians about psychedelics and they've all told me the same thing. It is a mind-altering drug, and nothing more.




I don't think you are going to be getting many physicians to be advocating the use of chemicals that are not manufactured by drug companies. Doctors prescribe pills. Doctors do not use holistic or natural remedies. Specific synthetic substance is the name of the game. So stop it with that straw man. You know doctors advocating the use of schedule 1 drugs is STUPID so don't even bring a discussion there.

First I want to know where LSD and shroomies *POISON* the brain. Also, what IS maximum efficiency you speak of?

Science tells us how the drug works, true. What can science explain to me about how it interacts with consciousness? What can science tell me about consciousness? After not being able to answer either of those questions... How can you tell me that these drugs effect the brain in a negative way?

Quote:

MustardMan said:
You act as if I'm the only one stating these claims. Nearly all physicians claim this, and science supports their claims. Are you ready to throw out science like a religious fanatic?




How many physicians have smoked DMT? Are these the physicians disputing the claims? What do nearly all physicians claim?

You create your own reality. Buy into what you will. People who aren't receptive to new ideas do whatever they can to block them out. To me this is the case of the "Action Skeptic". Even worse, this dumbass uses other reviewers of Pinchback's book to back his own claims. Who cares what others say, they are all nobodies and can be made up personalities.

This guy is a blowhard jackass extreme. He is out to make everyone else look like an idiot because he has nothing better to contribute to this reality. Look ma... I can criticize... are you proud of me?

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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: moho456]
    #6510316 - 01/29/07 10:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

or mabye when your under the influence what you see if actually reality. as far as you know your still sleeping

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510331 - 01/29/07 10:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MustardMan said:
You're joking right?

Can you find a single certifiedphysician who advocates psychedelic drug use? Maybe a few nuts, but the average doctor, no. This is for a reason. They know that it is merely a drug that poisons your brain and body--you're body temporarily doesn't work to its maximum efficiency.






Get your lame bigoted ideas out of here if you're not going to actually argue critically.

The reason most doctors don't advocate psychedelics is because they were not educated about them. The reason doctors were not educated about them is because we live in an arrogant, closed minded society, one where we think we have already answered the universe's questions.

I think that callously jamming your mind into a particular neuro-physical arrangement without considering the consequences (unquestioning belief in the christian god) is infinitely more akin to "misfiring the brain" than intentionally allowing the universe to affect your mind in a deep, powerful way.

Now unless you have anything more intelligent to say than "my doctor told me so" I suggest you leave while you still have a little face to save... a PHD is just a piece of paper, not the word of truth.

Quote:


I guess it was stupid of me to post this




You don't say...?

Retard.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineMr_Spliff420
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: coopypants]
    #6510339 - 01/29/07 10:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I think I should create another thread with all that thought I put into my post, what you guys say? Where should I post it for more hits? I would like to hear some opinions on it.


--------------------
Every thing I type is a figment of my skitso dreams, I have never actually done any of the things I may type about, nor will I ever do them.

I don't remember when it was that I fell asleep. It must of been long long ago. I don't remember for what time I set my alarm clock, I'm not sure how long I've been dreaming now. But I guess thats whats important, that I am dreaming. I think I want to wake up, but I am never sure. I just hope I will remember this dream when I do, I just hope I will remember who I was, this little bug on earth.

Known as "can_a_bus_dream" at http://futurehi.net/index.html

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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510360 - 01/29/07 10:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MustardMan said:
You're joking right?

Can you find a single certifiedphysician who advocates psychedelic drug use? Maybe a few nuts, but the average doctor, no. This is for a reason. They know that it is merely a drug that poisons your brain and body--you're body temporarily doesn't work to its maximum efficiency.





physicians study the body physiologists study the mind. Many physiologists have done great work with physcadelic drugs. Hell AA was started buy a dude who was cured by lsd.
you need to do some more research on the chemicals your talking about. if drugs are only poisoning your brain why are the cannabainoid receptors in the brain, i mean its specifically designed to bind with cannabinoids, if it was a poison we would have evolved without it. The chemical structure of the various compounds is proof enough, they are designed to act as normal occurring chemicals in the brain. So i guess you'd say a rush of serotonin or having to little is poison as well.



the author does make a good claim for moderation, and Pinchbeck hasn't really come up with anything new. but obviously has only listened the propaganda and has not made is own decesion on the subject. but granted he's most likely flip out.

the whole 2012 thing is pretty easy to believe. i mean hell if you make it to 2013 shit the messiah must have returned.

Edited by coopypants (01/29/07 10:19 PM)

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OfflineCymbaline
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: MustardMan]
    #6510401 - 01/29/07 10:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MustardMan said:

But you can't argue with the science that tells us how the drug works, and its effects on the brain. I've asked several physicians about psychedelics and they've all told me the same thing. It is a mind-altering drug, and nothing more.




Just how do these drugs work? I have never seen a satisfactory explanation either way....

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: coopypants]
    #6510421 - 01/29/07 10:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

coopypants said:
physicians study the body physiologists study the mind.





Psychologists** They are the ones who study the mind. Physio = physical aspects.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Article regarding psychedelics [Re: Cymbaline]
    #6510435 - 01/29/07 10:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"The question of how these agents produce their striking alterations of consciousness has long fascinated brain researchers. The first clue was that LSD, psilocybin, DMT, and many other psychedelics bear a close structural similarity to the neurotransmitter serotonin. Research in the 1970s showed that LSD temporarily suppresses the firing of serotonin-releasing neurons of the raphe nuclei (Rechs & Rosecrans, 1982), a part of the brainstem reticular activating system. These neurons send axons into widespread regions of the cerebral cortex and limbic system, where they release serotonin when active. Because the raphe nuclei also go silent during REM sleep, the notion that the psychedelic state represents “dreaming while awake” became the standard account. However, subsequent research contradicted this interpretation by showing that LSD and other psychedelics act postsynaptically as agonists at 5-HT2 Homosapiens is the only species that will voluntarily take a psychadelic drug again after experiencing its effect receptors (Jacobs, 1987), the most common serotonin receptors in the brain. The silencing of the raphe nuclei was due to LSD’s agonist action at presynaptic autoreceptors (inhibitory 5-HT1) on the serotonin-releasing cells. Autoreceptors serve a negative feedback function such that the neurotransmitter (in this case serotonin) inhibits its own release when extracellular levels are too high. LSD thus acts like serotonin both presynaptically and postsynaptically, inhibiting serotonin release via inhibitory 5-HT1 autoreceptors while simultaneously activating excitatory postsynaptic 5-HT2 receptors; only the latter action is relevant to the psychedelic state (Feldman, Meyer & Quenzer, 1997). This interpretation was bolstered by the finding that serotonin antagonists can block psychedelic effects. Recent PET scans of volunteers under the influence of psilocybin showed hyperactivity of the frontal and occipital lobes, especially in the right hemisphere, presumably reflecting strong activation of excitatory 5-HT2 receptors in the cortex (Vollenweider et al., 1997). But how and why these brain changes translate into psychedelic experiences are questions as difficult as the mind-body problem itself."
http://sci-con.org/2003/06/the-neurochemistry-of-psychdelic-experiences/
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_psyche.html/

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