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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6504654 - 01/28/07 01:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Moonchild.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblebadreligion2good
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Registered: 02/21/06
Posts: 888
Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6504748 - 01/28/07 02:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think Alan Watts summed up the way I feel about the relationship between psychedelics and meditation best, so I'll quote him:

"Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..."


About bugs comments on meditation, which are somewhat inaccurate:

"If you believe that meditation is militarily disciplining your mind to one-pointedness, you will be severely disappointed.

If you believe you have to suffer through back-ache and the inability to get into a full lotus position for a few decades, you will be severely disappointed."

Again, you are speaking from your own experience! What do you have against meditation, that its difficult sometimes? One goal of meditation is to discipline the mind, it is also relaxing, stress-reducing, and has many other documented medical benefits, both psychological and physical.

Meditation doesn't cause the back ache, its the persons bad posture that causes the back ache, the persons own lack of mindfulness about their bodies position at the moment.

Also, to be able to sit full lotus isn't a goal in meditation, sitting full lotus is just one of many possible sitting postures that can be utilized during meditation. There are many easier ways to sit and meditate such as seiza, laying, or the Burmese posture. It won't take someone decades to be able to sit full lotus either, it will only take a couple of months of regular meditating and stretching, and the desire to sit full lotus.


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All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6505040 - 01/28/07 03:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Another good point with meditation is that one must be patient and very gentle with oneself. This means not expecting immediate results, or trying to hard to "do" something. Whether or not you can do full lotus isn't something of primary importance. Having a straight back is the essential point with formal meditation practice. But of course, any position, when you are familiar with the principle of the the practice, can be practice also. But generally, its always good to start with formal meditation, and have an open and gentle attitude with it. IMHO one should never try to undermine the value of formal practice.


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Edited by Sinbad (01/28/07 04:33 PM)


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OfflineCymbaline
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6507254 - 01/29/07 05:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Cymbaline said:
My view on meditating while tripping?
... - intently observing all that is going on within and without me. This fills me with a sense of peace and belonging that I cannot describe - it is far more intense than the sense of calm that meditation alone instills in me. I can draw on this feeling for some time after the experience has passed....




would you say this is like a compounding of the simpler sense of calm that you experience in meditation, or even just by being in the forest alone.

(I respond to what I see as evidence to my observation/theory that the primary psychedelic effect is a compounding or layering of mind moments or the content therefrom - and secondary effects are the associative effects of memory with compounded content in conscious ness)





Not familiar with your observation/theory...

But, yeah, a compounding of the calm state that meditation induces in me would sum it up. The calm state of mind I am after comes much more easily, and with far less mental distraction, whilst I am tripping. Sitting there observing the breath, watching the world flow past has never been easier. I am left feeling part of the universe, if you know what I mean... Reflecting back on these times is also very calming.

You are correct that being alone in any forest while straight is also a calming experience. Though I will add that this is more so when I am at my mushroom hunting ground. Even in the middle of summer (season is in winter) a day out there always does me a power of good.... Placebo effect perhaps?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Cymbaline]
    #6507340 - 01/29/07 07:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

the layering of mind moments or compounding is from the psychedelic effect of slower fading of signals.
= each sense and flash of memory (which is associative sensory recall) normally fades within 1/15th of a second.
altered states of mind (dream state, psychedelic, emotion and jhana induced) provide longer fading of signals. this creates overlap or compounding.
the side effects of overlapping mind moments include warped time perception (enhanced sense of synchronicity (more moments to associate) - even deja vu and epiphany - immense concurrence); smeared shapes, creamy sensations, itch, burn, pressure, ballance... as well as enhanced color and rearranged sounds.

you can imagine what it is like to buffer a full second of mental activity, the glory of multiple dimensions...
to live in that time tunnel a full second long is very interesting; provided you are disinclined to tension - buffered tension turns to pain very quickly.
and at 3 seconds buffered or compounded, the mind is immobilized in layers and nothing makes any sense at all.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6510022 - 01/29/07 10:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Epigallo

Reason for deletion: Sorry.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Epigallo]
    #6511174 - 01/30/07 07:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

this is my own synthesis
I was a biochemistry student in the '70s
studying brain and behaviour, neurochemistry...
my cousin had returned from 3 years as a monk in thailand, and
another close friend was doing a masters thesis on abhidhamma (buddhist psychology) so there was a lot to synthesize and melt into a single theory.

we were all doing a fair amount of yoga, and psychedelic at the time.
my central reference was jhana states.
the confusing thing was how to integrate abhidhamma, gestalt experiencing, yoga, with neurological data and psychology and the idea of memory.
people at the time were seriously thinking that memories were stored as rna sequences and replayed later.

I knew this was far too nuts. even if there were a player for strands of rna, what would it play to?

the synthesis involved stydying lots of the major known signal pathways in the brain.
I was especially curious about the signals that were entering basal ganglia and thalamus en-route to cerebral cortex, those simple signals (maybe 4 to 10 pulses) were translated into feedback sequences (maybe 40 to 400 pulses).
what benefit would there be in stretching the signal duration if not in support of interference.

hence an interference based model for engram formation emerged which supports the holographic memory scheme that had emerged in the medical and psychological literature as a fact. memory has a nolocalized nature and people with brain portions damaged and removed still had memory just fuzzier in portions.

it was consistent with associative memory in psychology, strongly supportive of gestalt, and abhidhamma, and it tied together many of the most promising scientific studies that were underway (but not rna memory ideas).

the formulating idea required that interference occur in the cortex and that spikes or troughs be sensed (like retina or any other energy sense organ) and that detection used to join all the active cells during a gestalt event into a web. Multi axoned cells were found that had sensors (dendrites) in the cortex. Finally to fix this memory, the active cells needed to have something unique to better connect themselves to the interference sensors - and this uniqueness was their activity, (more than just 4 pulses)

so from a new and reasonable biological model for experience and memory that is consistent with all major schools of thought, we come to a picture that accommodates and even uses psychedelic experience to confirm theory of variable layering of sensory data in the brain.

as it turned out the rna model was unnecessary, since this model covered memory fixation and recall without any need of a chemical recorder.

it was dissapointing to some people that you could not use it to get memories from others in a vial and give them to someone else as a potion.

I got an offer to work with my professor who was moving to MIT, but I declined as I was scared of the nixon administration. also I did not want to militarize this work - the implications drove me underground.



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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6511800 - 01/30/07 12:15 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, very interesting. Thank you.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6512860 - 01/30/07 05:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Far out RGV!


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