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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: trippindad82]
#6476271 - 01/19/07 11:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why should it be legal to tax corporations but not private citizens?
You said the tax laws are illegal because they are not fair and equal. Wouldn't this just make them even more unequal? Are you saying it doesn't matter if it's fair as long as it's unfair to the rich?
Don't beat around the bush like you have in this whole thread. I want you to answer my questions.
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funkface
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: Redstorm]
#6476322 - 01/19/07 12:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't know where I stand with this issue but... the main points that nobody has touched here are:
1. Working and receiving compensation for your work is NOT income. It is an even exchange and you are not making any gains from your time you put in. What you receive from your employer is an even exchange for the work you give to them.
2. Companies make profits on services and goods sold. These services and goods are sold at higher rates than they cost and thus income actually comes into play.
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funkface
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: funkface]
#6476334 - 01/19/07 12:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh, I should say that those 2 points are what this whole discussion is over. Most importantly the definition of income. Those aren't necessarily how I see it, just how it is brough to the table for this discussion.
Have at it
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Cowgold
Bullshit
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: funkface]
#6476342 - 01/19/07 12:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
funkface said: I don't know where I stand with this issue but... the main points that nobody has touched here are:
1. Working and receiving compensation for your work is NOT income. It is an even exchange and you are not making any gains from your time you put in. What you receive from your employer is an even exchange for the work you give to them.
Are you sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income
Income, generally defined, is the money that is received as a result of the normal business activities of an individual or a business. For example, for individuals income usually means the gross amount on their payslips, i.e. amount before any tax and other deductions has been made by their employer.
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funkface
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: Cowgold]
#6476360 - 01/19/07 12:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I fully realize that. I'm not saying that is wrong. However... when was that definition put into print and accepted that way?
According to the movie... *eats a block of salt* the US Supreme Court said that income was not compensation for work. It said that money received from an employer was an even exchange for the labor given, not income.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything and would really like to know when the definitions changed and what the actual rulings were. That argument and perception of income would throw a wrench into everything. Thoughts?
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Cowgold
Bullshit
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: funkface]
#6476395 - 01/19/07 12:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think that would throw a wrench in, but I question the validity of that movies claim. I don't think the defenition has changed and if the 'government' stated that... I don't believe that the person in the government that stated that was probably even qualified to make that statement. Which is why it doesn't hold any water.
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trippindad82
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: funkface]
#6476428 - 01/19/07 12:37 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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One must also realize that wikipedia is written by YOU AND I. Also, the other point that people seem to be missing here is that OUR LAWS MUST BE WELL DEFINED. When you are pulled over for going 10 over, there is a stringent policy that was WRITTEN and DEFINED into the law about what penalties may be enforced around your ticket. The judge just can't throw you in jail for a week. Within the IRS code, there is no strict definition or statute that requires the AVERAGE citizen to pay an income tax.
Quote:
As stated by the 2nd Circuit in Botta v. Scanlon 288 F.2d 504, 506 (1961): Moreover, even the collection of taxes should be extracted only from persons upon whom a tax liability is imposed by some statute. (Emphasis added) In Higley v. Commissioner, 69 F2d 160 the Court stated: Liability for taxation must clearly appear from statute imposing tax. Defendants would point out to this Court that the mere “imposition” of a tax does not automatically establish a “liability” as to who is liable to pay the tax so “imposed.” This is clear from the following statutes. 2 For example, in connection with the federal wagering tax, section 4401(a) states in relevant part: Sec. 4401. Imposition of tax. (a) Wagers. (1) State authorized wagers. There shall be imposed on any wager authorized under the law of the State… etc. etc. etc. (Emphasis added) However, subsection (c) is captioned “Persons liable for tax” and provides: Each person who is engaged in the business of accepting wagers shall be liable for and shall pay the tax under this subchapter. (Emphasis added) Therefore, while subsection 4401(a) imposes the wagering tax, it is subsection (c) that says who is “liable” for, and who “shall pay the tax” imposed in subsection (a) Similarly, in connection with federal tobacco taxes, subsection 5701(a) imposes tobacco taxes, but it is subsections 5703 (a) and (b) that provide that The manufacturer or importer of tobacco products and cigarette papers and tubes shall be liable for the taxes imposed thereon by Section 5701… and … Such taxes shall be paid on the basis of a return (Emphasis added). Therefore, while subsection 5701(a) imposes federal tobacco taxes, it is subsections 5703(a) and (b) which state who is liable for those taxes and who is required to pay them.
-------------------- Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to blind person who has never seen a horse. ^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^ --------------------------------------
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trippindad82
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: Redstorm]
#6476454 - 01/19/07 12:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Why should it be legal to tax corporations but not private citizens?
You said the tax laws are illegal because they are not fair and equal. Wouldn't this just make them even more unequal? Are you saying it doesn't matter if it's fair as long as it's unfair to the rich?
Don't beat around the bush like you have in this whole thread. I want you to answer my questions.
I'm not saying that they should tax a corporation more than they should tax me. But you don't make profit, you make a wage. And as our Supreme Court decided, wages are an even trade for labor performed, not profit. But when it comes to taxing corporate profit, the IR code is exact in how it taxes. When it comes to you and I, the wording is very vague. Would you agree to a traffic law that was vague in how they can enact it? I sure as hell wouldn't. Why can the IRS do it? Maybe the reason they leave it vague is because if they worded it how they have chosen to define it, it would be not in accordance with supreme court decisions?
-------------------- Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to blind person who has never seen a horse. ^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^ --------------------------------------
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trippindad82
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: trippindad82]
#6476481 - 01/19/07 12:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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One more thing about the above quote I posted. When the govt has imposed other taxes, it states exactly who pays the tax. With the income tax on wages, if they are a mandatory tax, who pays it? Is it the employer or the employee? When they enacted an alcohol tax, the federal tax states that distiller pays the tax, not the customer (we're talking federal taxes, not your local liquor tax). So if it is indeed legal, then DEFINE it out, so maybe one can then find the code unconstitutional or constitutional.
-------------------- Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to blind person who has never seen a horse. ^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^ --------------------------------------
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VoidOfsPg
Stranger
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Posts: 4,899
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: Cowgold]
#6476629 - 01/19/07 01:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said:
Quote:
funkface said: I don't know where I stand with this issue but... the main points that nobody has touched here are:
1. Working and receiving compensation for your work is NOT income. It is an even exchange and you are not making any gains from your time you put in. What you receive from your employer is an even exchange for the work you give to them.
Are you sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income
Income, generally defined, is the money that is received as a result of the normal business activities of an individual or a business. For example, for individuals income usually means the gross amount on their payslips, i.e. amount before any tax and other deductions has been made by their employer.
Citing Wikipedia doesn't count.
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Cowgold
Bullshit
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: VoidOfsPg]
#6476657 - 01/19/07 01:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.msun.edu/stuaffairs/finaid/glossary/i.htm
Income: The amount of money received from employment (salary, wages, tips), profit from financial instruments (interest, dividends, capital gains), or other sources (welfare, disability, child support, Social Security and pensions).
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
S: (n) income (the financial gain (earned or unearned) accruing over a given period of time)
For corporations, same as earnings. For individuals, money earned through employment and investments. www.unisys.com/common/investors/glossary/i.asp
Your income is the total amount of money you receive from all sources, including wages, commissions, bonuses, government or retirement benefits, compensation claims interest and dividends on all investments. www.banks.adopto-finance.com/glossary.html
payment in money for services or work, or from property or investments. library.thinkquest.org/J003358F/terms.html
Money received from wages (earned) or from investments (unearned). www.clericalmedical.co.uk/Business/Reference/Glossary.asp
Total amount of money earned by an individual from all sources. www.vec.virginia.gov/vecportal/lbrmkt/glossary.cfm
As defined in the Current Population Survey, income includes money income (prior to payments for personal income taxes, Social Security, union dues, Medicare deductions, etc. ... www.agingstats.gov/chartbook2000/glossary.html
The amount of money one earns. This can be through one's job or through investments, etc.. www.mcwdn.org/ECONOMICS/EcoGlossary.html
1. The amount of money (nominal or real) received by a person, household, or other economic unit per unit time in return for services provided or goods sold. 2. National income. 3. The return earned on an asset per unit time. www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/i.html
I can go on. Citing Wikipedia doesn't discount, either.
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VoidOfsPg
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: Cowgold]
#6476667 - 01/19/07 01:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!
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Re: Would you still pay income tax if there wasn't a law requiring it? [Re: VoidOfsPg]
#6476765 - 01/19/07 02:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I haven't paid in over 12 years .
I'm not worried about income tax , I'm more pissed about the National ID Card going into effect in May of 2008 .
No more Drivers License , SS card or anything . One card for everything . You get pulled over in Ca , and they'll know about that unpaid speeding ticket from NY , or missed court date in KY , and off to jail you go . That's scary .
God Bless the land of the free .
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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