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Invisibledaytripper23
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What is fear?
    #6472097 - 01/18/07 12:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Is fear ultimately an irrational emotion in all situations? Is it a useful emotion for life?

Lots of people probably believe it is useful, because it seems to be inseperable from instincts of survival. Obviously being conditioned to fear dangerous situations is a basic strategy for staying alive, but wouldnt it be better to just be mindful, and get the job done, whatever it is? Fear is what freezes your mind and body when it needs to act. Ive been dealing with alot of irrational fears lately. And it is obvious to me that they are irrational, and in spite of what they seem to be, they are the hardest fears for me to overcome, next to fear of death. And thats where it gets interesting.
Fear of death is the ultimate irrational fear. If It's going to happen, and there is nothing to do about it, why fear it? I have always pushed death out of my mind after a certain amount of time dwelling on it. On one level it was not me denying the notion of death , more an attempt to ignore it. Ive been slowly overcoming my irrational fears recently and somehow related on a deeper level than i can explain, ive been confronting the meaning of life, and lately its seemed pretty bleak, and meaningless. but instead of denying it through wishful thinking, or avoidance, ive been dealing with it. What is interesting about this is how it is affecting my irrational fears. As my crisis with death is becoming more and more intense, I seem to be slowly and subtly overcoming my obvious delusions.
Im not sure how to explain myself here so you can understand but this connection is very intriguing. If anyone has ever seen the movie "punch drunk love" I think it illustrates this connection better than i can explain. Actually, to me, it all doesnt make sense in a purely logical kind of way, so i cant really explain it can I?

Here is ultimately where ive ended up: Fear of death is the root of all fear. Not only that, but it is the only fear, only "disguised" as something else. I wonder if any of that makes sense? what do you guys think? what is fear?

"Remember when you were young, you shone like the sun.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Now there's a look in your eyes, like black holes in the sky.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
You were caught on the crossfire of childhood and stardom,
blown on the steel breeze.
Come on you target for faraway laughter,
come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Threatened by shadows at night, and exposed in the light.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Well you wore out your welcome with random precision,
rode on the steel breeze.
Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!"

-pink floyd

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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6472380 - 01/18/07 02:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I did not read you post, but it was an interesting topic, so I just got to reply.

Fear, is; not daring to be afraid! (?)

It does serve a purpose to be afraid...

I tend to look at it this way:

Pain, leads to fear...

If you are hurt by a thing, then you fear the thing in the future, and will protect yourself from the danger/'things that are harmful to your earthly-body'.

It is important to only use it when absolutely sure that it is "no good" though...

No need to fear anything but the really really really REALLY REALLY REALLY harmful...

BTW: In that line of though, I'd also mention that pain may lead to fear, and when one fear what is painful, one might even hate it...

Pain leads to fear, which may result in "hate"...

I see all emotions as equally "needed", but, only when applied to the right situation/place ...

I'll see if I can read your post now.

Great topic!

Edited by Gomp (01/18/07 03:23 AM)

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OfflineRoker
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Gomp]
    #6472400 - 01/18/07 03:04 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

fear stops you doing stupid stuff that will really hurt.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6472408 - 01/18/07 03:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

After I started reading your post the word "worry" came to mind...

Fearing and worrying, seems to be related some how?

I'll read the rest of your post now.

I really like your thread!

:heart:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6472416 - 01/18/07 03:34 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry to  not edit my other post, but I think this deserves its own...

The fear of dying seems to be what kills ’you’ …

Look at the sea turtles?

I shall eat my dick, without potatoes, if there is not a creature in the sea, being 500years + + …
We all know trees can get silly old, too…

Again, I tend to look at it this way.

You DIE now!

You BIRTH now!

This is the cycle we call “life”.

One cell is birthed, used, and then go deceased …

You are not only a “cell”; … you are cells!

A multitude…

So if one keep reproducing the reproducer/’reproducing cells’ (stem cells), one can live forever now, as if now; was forever…

“Fix/’Keep fixing’ what fixes…”
~Unknown

I really like your topic!

BTW: I seem to be using the "comma" too much.. (I just changed one whit a semicolon though.). Feel free to correct me, you know you are! :wink:

Edited by Gomp (01/18/07 03:43 AM)

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6472673 - 01/18/07 08:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Is fear ultimately an irrational emotion in all situations? Is it a useful emotion for life?

No.

Go walk across a busy highway without looking.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6473499 - 01/18/07 01:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, fear of death is the 'mother of all fears.' By corollary, Freud said that death is the source of all anxiety. Of all the existential malaises: guilt, shame, boredom, loneliness, meaninglessness, denial of responsibility, etc., anxiety has been my particular constitutional foe. However, even beyond death anxiety, Irv Yalom points out in his book Existential Psychotherapy:

Many existentialist philosophers have described the anxiety of groundlessness as "ur-anxiety" - the most fundamental anxiety, an anxiety that cuts deeper even than the anxiety associated with death. In fact, many consider death anxiety as a symbol for the anxiety of groundlessness. P.221

A major decision not only exposes one to the anxiety of groundlessness but also threatens one's defenses against death anxiety....Decisions are painful because they signify the limitation of possibilities; and the more one's possibilities are limited, the closer one is brought to death. Indeed, Heideggar defined death as "the impossibility of farther possibility. PP. 318-319

An interesting take. Usually we think of death in terms of our embodied ego - our mind-body shutting down, gradually (perhaps with suffering) or quickly, as in 'sudden death,' game over. The existential position shifts the emphasis from 'survival' to 'being,' or perhaps from 'death' to 'non-being.'

I see fearlessness as a high spiritual goal for us embodied egos, yet I have seen calmness and fearlessness in people before they committed suicide and I don't think they were in a high spiritual state. Inner peace is not sufficient for me, the ultimate source of that peace is all-important. The existentialist position is that we attribute meaning to our decisions, our choices, but there is no Transcendental Reality imparting meaning to us. That means for the existentialists that it is by my own self-creation that I seek peace through spiritual attainment rather than through heroin. I prefer to believe otherwise.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6473533 - 01/18/07 01:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is useful. It causes chemical reactions within that heighten fight or flight reflexes. It is also a conditioning tool that can eventually lead to confidence by recognizing your ability to overcome obstacles. Few would argue that confidence (notice I didn't say arrogance) improves quality of life.

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OfflineGrok
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Cowgold]
    #6473801 - 01/18/07 03:14 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Fear can serve us, certinaly it serves the government to keep people afarid of terrorism, it serves religion to keep people afarid of God. The question is, what end are we trying to serve?

Fear IS irrational because ultimatly there is nothing to be afraid of.
Through fear we learn to be cautious, which is useful; being continually fearful is not.

Is fear of God rational? Its caused a LOT of irrational behvior. Is fear of death rational? Its caused a LOT of irrational behavior. Fear of communists, drugs, terrorists...does these not spawn incredibly irrational behavior?

Judge not fear itself, but the actions sprung forth from it, for they show us the true nature of fear: irrationality.


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Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

Edited by cilosyb (01/18/07 03:19 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6474114 - 01/18/07 05:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is useful in that it is an opportunity for ourselves to become aware of the conditions within our mind that are responsible for the experience of fear. Fear is produced when a thought process associates the experience of it with a pattern, observed through the senses and in one's thoughts.

Fear is not necessary for an individual to be capable of navigating their life, to ensure that we do not suffer undue harm. In fact, fear is a detriment to our ability to respond in the most effective manner for the present moment, as it is an obstruction of our direct perception of reality.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: What is fear? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6475187 - 01/18/07 11:29 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmmm what i am suggesting though, is that one could seperate fear from all these processes...Here are some possible examples based on your guys posts..

Someone mentioned that it keeps you from doing stupid stuff.. Maybe its obvious that fear is useful in ways, but what i am really trying to say is that it can be completely overcome with only positive affects. You dont need fear to have the common sense to not poke a sleeping grizzly bear or to stay out of heavy traffic. What is the difference between bravery and stupidity? Think about that.

As for fear being a stimulus for adrenalen i also believe it is not NECESSARY for the situation. Maybe all i have is vague, or possibly untrue ideas of how war is fought but can you not imagine a warrior without fear? Dont get me wrong, id bet alot of those that fought were scared as hell, and as you said it gave them an adrenalen boost, which in turn helped them. But arnet many of those that distinguish them self in battle are known as being brave, or fearless?

I think i can sort of relate in my own way to this from what i learned playing organized sports. I used to play basketball and tennis, and before the games i would get extremely nervous sometimes. I wanted to live up to my hype or my potential all the time, so i guess thats what got to me. An absolutely stupid predicament, because I believe that all the fear did was hurt my chances of playing my best. If i was able to overcome my fear and get pumped up, in the zone, of course thats when id play best! But when i cant overcome this pregame anxiety, it would sometimes carry into my games, and id play like shit. and incidently its sometimes impossible to get out of a bad groove like that.

What im saying is that i believe that it is completely unnecessary at a certain point. I guess I didnt mean to ask whether fear was useful in that kind of sense. Because it is useful in certain situations, before you know what is dangerous and what isnt. Do you NEED to fear fire because it burns you? Do you NEED to fear cars because you could possibly die in one?

I think that there is a better approach to even new situations, when you dont know what your in for. I think you can even seperate your fear from your gut feelings. Some of those gut feelings will even sometimes tell you to enter a scary situation.

cilosyb: I wholeheartedly agree. I was more focused on a personal level of fear and at first it would seem that the two are different, because it introduces so much more into the mix. But actually i think this fear on a nationwide scale is just a more complex form of fear. If you think of all the situations where fear is used, such as the US using fear to keep terrorists or other countrys from attacking us; Couldnt knowledge and understanding work even better? Like on a personal level, the fear has its uses, but it isnt actually necessary. Using fear for good will leave loose ends in whatever it is used for. People should be good, not in fear of a god, but because they want to.  In any other case it wont be real goodness IMO.

Markoagnostic, What you said is right up my alley.I think this seperation from groundlessness (anxietys) and the death fear is Illusionary, and might be the ultimate test of mankind. What they have in the same, like you said, is that they are demonstrations of our possibilities being limited! I now realize that that is what my anxiety is when i see meet new people, or meet old friends.  I dont wanna fuck up so much and make this person not like me. Ive always kind of understood that this is what it was and all it does is make things worse. I would blow off my old friends, or become completely tonguetied with new people. and when it comes to women it was always magnefied 10x because that was want i wanted 10x as much! I really believe that all these were the deathfear that disguises itself with this "limitation of possibility". It really is a death fear complex, i can see it now. Thats not to say that im going to try to conquer my death fear to overcome my anxiety. Even though I now believe that both are unfounded fears, it would be silly to tackle it from the top down. Im just going to keep doing what im doing, and continue to confront death when it comes up instead of just pushing it away. :laugh:AWesome!


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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6475246 - 01/18/07 11:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think that you can become comfortable with fear. Not fear the fear or whatever. Fear comes and goes; I think that by learning to cope when it does, you'll get what you want more often.

The best way to cope most likely is with rational thought. I notice when I am coping well with a jolt of fear or whatever, I'll become very focused on whatever i chose to do. When I'm letting the fear get the best of me, my head/thinking gets in the way more often.

You don't have to be comfortable with what you're afraid of, but you can become comfortable with your fear.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6475623 - 01/19/07 06:01 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Hmmmm what i am suggesting though, is that one could seperate fear from all these processes...




That is what I said. :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6475649 - 01/19/07 06:26 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Hmmmm what i am suggesting though, is that one could seperate fear from all these processes...




That is what I said. :grin:




That is what daytripper23 said too... :grin:


:crazy2::thumbup:


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Re: What is fear? [Re: Gomp]
    #6475856 - 01/19/07 09:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

when will you realize that fear is just like all the other emotions, just a dream cloud, like life.

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Re: What is fear? [Re: nolongerinuse]
    #6476417 - 01/19/07 12:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"A major decision not only exposes one to the anxiety of groundlessness but also threatens one's defenses against death anxiety....Decisions are painful because they signify the limitation of possibilities; and the more one's possibilities are limited, the closer one is brought to death. Indeed, Heideggar defined death as "the impossibility of farther possibility. PP. 318-319"

Nick Sand, the famous acid chemist(orange sunshine), said in a lecture that he found his most ultimate peace in the midst of his time in prison. He attributes this directly to the fact that prison life narrowed his range of possibilities. He now longer existed outside daily routine and all his free time began to transform into long yogic meditational sessions. During these intensives he came to realize that the true root of anxiety was the illusion of choice, and once eliminated he was free to exist in a boundless sense. By refraining from any choices and simply existing in the situation that arose spontaneously, what might be called living in the moment by some, Nick Sand found something similar if not the actual state of samadhi. Essentially by accepting death and relinquishing ego-driven decision making, he found his center. Interestingly enough very soon after his initial realization of this truth his long prison sentence was dropped in court, and within a short period he was released on parole, as if after resolving his karmic situation it released him. Interesting little anecdote, hope I didn't put you to sleep.

As we have established above it seems that fear of death is irrational, because of its inevitability. But it seems to me it is irrational because of the nature of life and of time which seems to me to suggest a continuity that leaves no room for an ultimate nonexistent sort of death. Consider the nature of time, the past dissolves and seems to die in a sense but there is still an ever present now that it shifts into. Modern physics declares the law of conservation of energy, nothing is lost only changed. Even in a purely biological sense we all are a result of a continuity of reproduction. We are in a sense separate growths of the same original organism. On some sense we all share a biological thread so to speak. This gives me reason for a positivistic attitude towards death, and its certainly not a view of certainty but It seems to me to be suggestive of an immortal consciousness.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die." --HP Lovecraft

The universe is so strange and diverse and is in a state of constant flux that it seems impossible that there are not infinite possibilities!


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"Its a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"--Lewis Carroll

Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path . . . one that we must all take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...
Gandalf: ...And then you see it.
Pippin: What, Gandalf? See what?
Gandalf: White shores . . . and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well, that isn't so bad.
Gandalf: [Softly:] No... No it isn't.

"The universe is an intelligence test"--Timothy leary

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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #7844511 - 01/07/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What is fear? you mother! weh weh weh....

sorry, i just couldnt resist, but I'm sure theres a more meaningful Freudian interpretation of these words.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7844540 - 01/07/08 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hahah, its always fun to look back and see what an idiot I was.

Naturally, now I am a philsophical genius.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #7847522 - 01/08/08 11:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Here is ultimately where ive ended up: Fear of death is the root of all fear. Not only that, but it is the only fear, only "disguised" as something else. I wonder if any of that makes sense? what do you guys think? what is fear?


This kind of makes sense to me.:lol::thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #7847676 - 01/08/08 12:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Right so, since you asked I'll give you my honest answer if i make spelling or grammatical mistakes please dont correct them and through that disregard everything i write, its rude.

Now... fear is kind of built in to the animal you do be and i don't believe ANYONE is devoid of fear. Fear in itself, isn't really fear OF anything, its an emotion and while we do come with some, maybe many inbuilt triggers for this emotion some are set by being taught or told to be afraid and some through happenstance.

Woudnt it be better to be mindful? probably, most of the time,not when your running for your life, people experiencing fear generally run faster as do people experiencing anger hit harder.
All this being as it may, you got to work with you're problems feeling an itty bit of fear makes me more alert to the situation around me, fear can do that when its not so strong it paralizes you. Unless i'm in a situation where the fear is obviously warranted the first thing i do when experiencing the beginning of fear is evaluate whether its unfounded or not, if i think its unfounded i go ahead and do the very thing i'm afraid of of doing(i.e. take the dark shortcut), needles to say i got hurt sometimes but as a wise man once said "ah sure fuck it".

Which brings us to pain... which is another subject

So, to recapitulate, my view, fear is an emotion if you don't let it get out of hand it can at times "save thine ass", a lot of it doesn't deserve your attention. Would it be better to be mindful all the time and never afraid? probably, but no one is, we're every last one of us apes here. Uselful?

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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7847688 - 01/08/08 12:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear in itself, isn't really fear OF anything,

Not true. Fear of death or death anxiety is at the bottom of all fear IMO.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7847715 - 01/08/08 12:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Fear in itself, isn't really fear OF anything,

Not true. Fear of death or death anxiety is at the bottom of all fear IMO.




I agree.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7847739 - 01/08/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear of death is more fear that i'm going to die within the next ten minutes. usually, otherwise you'd be living in dread.

Does having a crippling fear of mimes have to do with a fear of death? what about loud noises? is it caused by death anxiety? what about the fear when someone creeps up behind you and says "boo!", what if your little and the person is a mime? he's be a shit thats what!...

"Fear of death is the root of all fear. Not only that, but it is the only fear, only "disguised" as something else." Would you be open to the possibility that the factors at play are more mechanical than this?.

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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7847748 - 01/08/08 12:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is the root of the tree, the leaves don't even resemble the root, but its the same fuckin plant!

:rolleyes:


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: justamonkey]
    #7847762 - 01/08/08 12:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You what?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7847763 - 01/08/08 12:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear of death is more fear that i'm going to die within the next ten minutes. usually, otherwise you'd be living in dread.

Called Neurosis, humans are living in dread. Much of it push below conscious level. Sorry to tell you.

Does having a crippling fear of mimes have to do with a fear of death? what about loud noises? is it caused by death anxiety? what about the fear when someone creeps up behind you and says "boo!", what if your little and the person is a mime? he's be a shit thats what!...

Yes. All sublimated symptoms of death anxiety. Come on loud noises? Someone creeping up behind? You can do better than that?


Would you be open to the possibility that the factors at play are more mechanical than this?.

No evidence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/08/08 12:50 PM)

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7847889 - 01/08/08 01:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Called Neurosis, humans are living in dread. Much of it push below conscious level. Sorry to tell you."

Fuck off! really? i don't know where you're from but were pretty chilled out over here.

Actually i don't think we really disagree by much, when i said fear isn't fear OF something i was referring to the emotion itself, for which there are many triggers, the most primal of which is death.

If you're afraid of something thats going to kill you its not fear of death, somewhere along the line it might have been but its grown legs.

having admitted this let me be devil's advocate: what about when you when you fear for someone? when your afraid a lover will leave, when your afraid you'll loose half you're savings. Is it possible to not fear your death but to fear the loss of a loved one? The fear of gaining weight? of being unatractive.

As for the factors at play being mechanical it doesn't exclude the fear of death, but explains the fear of mimes. How the basic fears, those that have kept the organism alive and reproducing throughout its evolution can be tacked on to another stimulus.

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7847914 - 01/08/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

When its tacked on to another stimulus it becomes fear of that stimulus.

I don't buy the neurosis schtick with everyone living in dread and everyone has some form of mental illness, its the lie that keeps a useless profession afloat.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7847944 - 01/08/08 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

having admitted this let me be devil's advocate: what about when you when you fear for someone? when your afraid a lover will leave, when your afraid you'll loose half you're savings. Is it possible to not fear your death but to fear the loss of a loved one? The fear of gaining weight? of being unattractive.


OK. When you fear for someone then the possibility of death becomes conscious and you have to face your own through the possibility of their death.

If your lover leaves then it's because you aren't good enough which translates to you aren't strong or a good survivor and beyond that it's the personality structure/ego that fears and to the ego any failure of any kind shows the fallacy of its omnipotence. Why do you think people have inflated egos?

You lose half your savings and you could lose the rest that means possible starvation (symbolically at least) and failure. Remember failure equals death to the ego. That's why we can hardly ever admit we're wrong (check these forums).

Gaining weight.= dying early of heart failure or being unattractive and not being able to have children to continue our lineage (which = fear of death because we have the ridiculous notion that offspring insure our immortality)

And on and on. And these examples are only a few of the ways those situations can bring on death anxiety.

David Byrne - Back In The Box lyrics



The sun shines on the living
The sun shines on the dead
The sun shines on you and me
Wherever we lay our heads

The sun shines on the evil
The sun shines on the good
It doesn't favour righteousness
Although you wish it would

Oh johnny, oh johnny
Are you still awake?
Oh johnny, oh johnny
I'm terribly scared

And now I need an oasis
A place to hide from the day
I'd like a little dark tiny room
Where the music plays

Maybe you just lost somebody
Maybe your whole world has changed
The sun don't really care about that
It shines on anyway

Oh johnny, oh johnny
Are you still awake?
Oh johnny, oh johnny
I'm terribly scared

I'm going back in the box
Back in the box
Back in the box again
Back in the box
Back in the box
Back in the box again

And now love's terrifying
But I cannot hide what I want
You cannot hear me or see me now
Because I've gone back in the box

If I don't make no decisions
Then I won't make no mistakes
But through all those tiny holes
Well the light's still getting in

I'm going back in the box
Back in the box
Back in the box again
I'm going back in the box
Back in the box
Back in the box again ...


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/08/08 01:32 PM)

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7848014 - 01/08/08 01:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


You lose half your savings and you could lose the rest that means possible starvation (symbolically at least) and failure. Remember failure equals death to the ego.




Does that mean we're engaged in a symbolic fight to the death? or are you above fearing death!

If you think about it hard enough you can see death is absolutely anything, even mimes! and then you will be afraid of everything cause death is scary, granted but fear does not equals death, the two things can be and are separated routinely.

Pardon me while i quote myself
Quote:

If you're afraid of something thats going to kill you its not fear of death, somewhere along the line it might have been but its grown legs. the basic fears, those that have kept the organism alive and reproducing throughout its evolution can be tacked on to another stimulus. When its tacked on to another stimulus it becomes fear of that stimulus.




This has been fun, i appreciate you singing to me such a lovely song, in its entirety and look forward to reading you're posts in future.

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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7848082 - 01/08/08 01:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is all of the physical symptoms that comprise it. Why fear? We fear because we die, and know that any situation could become irreversible if we die before we can correct it, or because of it.

If we did not, die, what purpose would fear hold?

Thus all fear is the fear of death.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7848190 - 01/08/08 02:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

becomes fear of that stimulus.


as a symbol for death.;)

yes yes all good fun. or are you above fearing death!

You got to be kidding.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7849077 - 01/08/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If we did not, die, what purpose would fear hold?




There would be lots to fear, pain, loss of social status, a miserable low level life for eternity... These would still be fears if death didn't exist. Enough said.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7849365 - 01/08/08 05:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Not enough said. All those problems would likely not be problems with unlimited time. Pain might hurt but likely not be feared as it could not lead anywhere.

You have no idea after all what would be felt if death didn't exist. How about dealing with reality here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7853632 - 01/09/08 01:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was answering justamonkey's comment. I dont want to fight you to the "ego death". hmmm...ah fuck it! look, the ego death bit enlarged the definition of the original terms to not make you wrong...

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7853720 - 01/09/08 01:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Icelander has a big battle axe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7853766 - 01/09/08 01:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

And so it ends... ahhh, peace.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7854529 - 01/09/08 04:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Deaths sweet release


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinestraasha
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Icelander]
    #7868110 - 01/12/08 04:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

no no no, THIS is the last word...

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Offlinekrin
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Re: What is fear? [Re: straasha]
    #7868253 - 01/12/08 07:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

GOMP SAID:

"I shall eat my dick, without potatoes"

Here here



Look, fear is a reaction that exists because it kept alot of creatures alive, it crops up even when the most mindful person doesnt expect, thats because even the most mindful person isnt as receptive as thier subconscious, which seems to be sensitive to much more, but retentive (enough for the conscious mind to retrieve) to a very small degree.
The mindful person really only does one thing, which is pay attention to as many "subconscious" thoughts as possible, and all thier depths/permutations
Releasing yourself from all irrational fear would probably be relaxing,but then realize that what you may have thought was irrational was actually a safegaurd from multidimensional dangers, and now that your constant "illogical" energetic repulsion is disengaged, BAM! space goat fucks yo mama


--------------------


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: What is fear? [Re: krin]
    #7869076 - 01/12/08 01:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is the death/rebirth experience. Dang.


--------------------

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OfflineJoseLibrado
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Re: What is fear? [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7869363 - 01/12/08 03:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is the inability to see that bad is always followed by good. That in actuality bad is always nessecary, if we are to experience good.

Ultimatly, we only fear bad things and hope for good.

These thoughts create the illusion of paralyzation that fear resembles to many people.

The experience of good, is always relative to the bad you have experienced.

Think of a kid who has had everything he has ever wanted in his life and soon comes to his mid life feeling like material things do not give him satisfaction, if they are not come in what would seem to us who were not given many things, to be excessive quantities.

I think this is one of the reasons why our way of life is so attractive to non-consumerist societies who are just beggining to make the switch over to consumerists.

IOhhhhhhronically i know alot of people who are realizing the futility of consumerism and wish now to return to a simple farming gathering life.

WE simply cannot see the folly of the logic that good things come without bad, making room for stressful anxius fears, that paralyze our minds a force us to look away at inevitabilities like death and old age. A mind who strongly believes this logic would have its life stopped dead in its tracks, making it easier to pretend it is not going to happen.


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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InvisibleVisualLearner
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Re: What is fear? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7869593 - 01/12/08 04:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fuck I thought it wasen't real!:whoa:


--------------------

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InvisibleVisualLearner
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Re: What is fear? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7869595 - 01/12/08 04:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fuck I thought it wasn't real!:whoa:


--------------------

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What is fear? [Re: daytripper23]
    #7872125 - 01/13/08 01:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What is fear?
Primarily, the instinct of avoiding the unknown.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: krin]
    #7877158 - 01/14/08 06:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krin said:
GOMP SAID:

"I shall eat my dick, without potatoes"

Here here



Look, fear is a reaction that exists because it kept alot of creatures alive, it crops up even when the most mindful person doesnt expect, thats because even the most mindful person isnt as receptive as thier subconscious, which seems to be sensitive to much more, but retentive (enough for the conscious mind to retrieve) to a very small degree.
The mindful person really only does one thing, which is pay attention to as many "subconscious" thoughts as possible, and all thier depths/permutations
Releasing yourself from all irrational fear would probably be relaxing,but then realize that what you may have thought was irrational was actually a safegaurd from multidimensional dangers, and now that your constant "illogical" energetic repulsion is disengaged, BAM! space goat fucks yo mama





Now now..

GOMP SAID:

"I shall eat my dick, without potatoes, if there is not a creature in the sea, being 500years + + …
We all know trees can get silly old, too…"

But, fair enough.. :tongue:

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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7877164 - 01/14/08 06:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fear is equal to respect..

Just dare to be afraid, and dare to be respectful..

"One might fear fire, thus never get burned.. But the same can be achieved by respecting the fire.."

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Gomp]
    #7877182 - 01/14/08 06:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How is fear equal to respect?

Or let me put it in a different way.
WHAT is respect?
To me, it is something fake. An impersonal form of love.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7881739 - 01/15/08 04:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The one-liner c-/sh-ould cover that. :p

Then again, I could agree with you too, .. so do not ask too much of me. I like to keep stuff one cannot know for sure, open till one can know for sure.. :smile:

And if one do not think it is equal then that is ones own choice! No matter what examples I put forth. :wink:

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Offlinekrin
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Re: What is fear? [Re: Gomp]
    #7883405 - 01/15/08 01:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Fear is equal to respect.. "

"To me, it is something fake. An impersonal form of love."

emotional symbols are emotionally painful


--------------------


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is fear? [Re: krin]
    #7915764 - 01/22/08 05:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krin said:
"Fear is equal to respect.. "

"To me, it is something fake. An impersonal form of love."

emotional symbols are emotionally painful




You cute sack of love!

"One might fear fire, thus never get burned.. But the same can be achieved by respecting the fire.." ...

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