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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
An "open" energy market
    #6468033 - 01/17/07 12:44 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I've been thinking about this for a little bit. I'm sure some economist somewhere has already thought this one up. Anyways...

With a lot of research going into sustainability it's only a matter of time before majority of the buildings from the residential, commercial, and industrial sectors become energy producers instead of consumers. PV cells, wind turbines, waste heat, etc. Some will even produce enough energy to satisfy the building's needs plus put some onto the grid.

We all know the oil market is very volatile. Prices change daily. But for electricity my rates change only 3 or 4 times per year depending on the season. If electricity's price was tracked like gasoline's was you would probably see as dramatic of a shift. Obviously peak times would be higher, like midday during the summer, as opposed to off-peak times such as the middle of the night.

My electric consumption last month wast about 300 kW. So imagine I have a 10kW battery pack in my house and that gets me through each day just fine. Naturally I would want to charge my battery during the off-peak time, which is probably also while I'm asleep. If the power company is at an off-peak time should I not get an off-peak rate to charge my batteries?

What if we had a more open market for electricity? When buildings start becoming self sustainable for electric needs there will be surplus. Right now you can usually put it onto the grid and receive a credit on your electric bill at your power provider's wholesale rate.

So now imagine my next-door neighbor has a wind turbine that satisfies his power needs. He can keep his battery level at a reasonable amount during the day so at night he usually has extra he can sell back to the grid. Let's say the power company gives him .02/kWh. What if I wanted to give him .05/kWh instead of paying my power company .075/kWh to charge my batteries every night?

It wouldn't be hard to set up a trading system like this with constantly updated energy prices during peak and off-peak times. A more open energy market would force power companies to be more competitive with their prices. Energy producing buildings would be able to sell their surplus at competitive rates to help offset the initial costs of their systems. Communities with a good ratio of power producing buildings to consumers will have a good chance of keeping more money within it by constantly trading energy.

Imagine a system where, instead of subscribing to receive power from one provider, you can have access to any number of prospective power providers. Go back to my 10kW battery setup. In this system I can setup a timer on my battery to charge a certain time every night. At that time it will connect to power market website and check to see who is providing and at what cost. I can choose to either purchase from one person for my whole amount needed or purchase from several separate providers that add up to what I need. I can select the lowest price and know I'm always getting the best deal on power.

If you've read this far I think the only thing standing in the way is transmission. Obviously because of the low amounts of power the transmissions would have to be within local communities. But still, transmitting 10kW across a city from house to house may not be efficient. I haven't really looked into any of that. This idea just kinda came to me and it is probably something we are moving towards.

Now it's time to finish my bowl that I forgot I put down  :stoned:


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OfflineUlcerPentacidis
psilophile

Registered: 01/14/04
Posts: 969
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6468955 - 01/17/07 12:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i've been thinking of this for a long time.

it wouldn't be too hard to set yourself up as an energy producer.

i've been thinking of starting a grease collection business,

and buring it in a diesel generator for juice.

the generator'd cover my electric, and heat costs,

and the leftover would go to the grid.

bam!

i plan on going all out too though.

water catchment and filtration, dry toilets, and what not.

i want to be completly free of utilities providers on all fronts:

heat/electric/water/sewage bye bye.


--------------------
µgrammar


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Offlinelavendercowboy
Stranger

Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 40
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: UlcerPentacidis]
    #6469018 - 01/17/07 12:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I love the off peak battery idea. How much do those batteries cost?

One issue that people exchanging energy are going to run into is in the transfer process. Electric companies will either not allow, or tax any usage of their infrastructure (wiring, telephone poles, those transister cans on the poles, etc). It might be one of those things where I'd have to bring a battery to your house and have you juice it up. Just something to consider...


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Offlinelavendercowboy
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Registered: 01/14/06
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Re: An "open" energy market [Re: lavendercowboy]
    #6469021 - 01/17/07 12:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Also, once they invent solar panel - roofing shingles, we'll all be off the grid


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: lavendercowboy]
    #6469365 - 01/17/07 02:21 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Solar Shingles already exist.

Watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" . You will meet the inventor of solar shingles and see them in the film. He also gave GM a battery that gave an electric car more distance between recharges and GM sold the patent to Shell Oil who of course are letting it collect dust.

Dig into why Regan took the Solar panels off of the White House roof that Carter put on when he was in office and you may understand why soalr shingles that exist are not being made mandatory on new construction.

I learned that the planet is hit with more energy from the sun in a day then all humans use in one year. Crazy we arn't harnessing that power better by now.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/17/07 02:22 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6469455 - 01/17/07 02:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Here's a link you might enjoy DKNYD. This company is already helping to set people up as you described using solar shingles. They are available on the market now lavender.


http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/23700.pdf

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
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Re: An "open" energy market [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6469705 - 01/17/07 04:04 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I learned that the planet is hit with more energy from the sun in a day then all humans use in one year. Crazy we arn't harnessing that power better by now.
:peace: :heart:



PURE INSANITY. Without a doubt.
I saw an interview with the guy that made that movie, and for some reason I cant get Utorrent to do shit these days. It just wont download.

Is the movie up on SOMETHING like googgleVideo? youtube etc???

BTW...  Throw away your TV  is a great site. :thumbup:


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OfflineNephlyte
Misfortunate One
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Registered: 10/11/05
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Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6469752 - 01/17/07 04:20 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DNKYD said:

With a lot of research going into sustainability it's only a matter of time before majority of the buildings from the residential, commercial, and industrial sectors become energy producers instead of consumers. PV cells, wind turbines, waste heat, etc. Some will even produce enough energy to satisfy the building's needs plus put some onto the grid.





We have a more or less open energy market here in Texas. I get my electric power from Green Mountain Energy, a company which puts out zero emissions. http://www.greenmountain.com/ for anyone in texas.

My problem is that theoretically once texas went open energy, we could put wind turbines on the our roofs and make our own damn energy. Well as soon as this happened, my city passed an ordinance that barred anyone from putting a wind turbine up in the city. EVEN though this is the windiest city in the country short of chicago(not a fact, just an exageration, but its fucking windy here).

Also, as a side note. an open energy policy can only work if it is coupled with an emmissions trading scheme(not like the shitty one europe set up, but thats a good start). Because in an open energy system with no emissions trading, coal becomes the best way to provide energy to the masses, but its the damn worst for the environment.


--------------------
"To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: lavendercowboy]
    #6469913 - 01/17/07 05:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lavendercowboy said:
I love the off peak battery idea. How much do those batteries cost?

One issue that people exchanging energy are going to run into is in the transfer process. Electric companies will either not allow, or tax any usage of their infrastructure (wiring, telephone poles, those transister cans on the poles, etc). It might be one of those things where I'd have to bring a battery to your house and have you juice it up. Just something to consider...




The power companies do not own the transmission lines. They pay, just like anybody else would, to transmit power across them.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
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Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6470065 - 01/17/07 05:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

And media companies don't own the airwaves, etc. I wish people knew these things, it would make it easier to demand better media if we all just realized ITS OURS.
NOT THEIRS.
Sorry to Thread jack I just had to point that out. :tongue:


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6470628 - 01/17/07 08:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Check out Natural Capitalism by Paul Hawken, Amory Lovins, and L. Hunter Lovins.  They talk about similar ideas.  Plus, it's a book that I think everyone should read.


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InvisibleBoom
just a tester
Male
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
Loc: Cypress Creek
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6470662 - 01/17/07 08:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

hmm I always though that electric cars never caught on because of two reasons

1) (most) People like their cars to go fast

2) Almost all the electricity you generate (right now, anyway) to charge the car is going to be made by burning some sort of pollutant..


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: An "open" energy market [Re: Boom]
    #6470700 - 01/17/07 08:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Electric cars DO go VERY fast. :wink: And they have allot of "pick up" :yesnod:

Your second point is hard to argue with, however, I foresee many better ways to get our energy in the future coming down the pipe.
Couldn't give you a "well what about X" answer though
:sad:
We just haven't built the infrastructure.
BUT, electric cars dont use allot of power.


--------------------


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InvisibleBoom
just a tester
Male
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
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Re: An "open" energy market [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6470731 - 01/17/07 08:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I mean having a solar setup or whatever at your house, and charging the car car from that, is obviously a great plan, and when all that becomes cheap enough (not "cheaper" due to government initiatives/funds --- that really doesn't make something any more feasible in the long run) it would be dumb not to have a rechargable car


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: Boom]
    #6470755 - 01/17/07 08:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Still, having an electric car at a time like this would take pollution out of your transportation corridors (highways, city streets) and centralize it at the power stations.


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InvisibleBoom
just a tester
Male
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
Loc: Cypress Creek
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6470775 - 01/17/07 08:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, but if it's a coal power station, that's even worse, really.  (For the people downwind).  It's weird, but I think right now, until we figure out something better, good ol' fission is the way to go.  Well, not with our reactors, with an updated version like other countries use, you can "recyle" the waste to produce new fuel instead of declaring all of it unusable.  Some people don't like the idea of having a ready supply of plutonium though :lol:

I'm also curious to the cost per mile you'd be getting from an electric car (taking kW hours and shit into account) versus the gasoline engine.


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: Boom]
    #6470817 - 01/17/07 09:04 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Completely wrong. With the current trends of energy consumption building nuclear power plants to satisfy those needs will have us never seeing the payback on them. Nuclear is not the way for us to go.

As for electric cars the Tesla is claiming 2 cents per mile I believe. Chevy's Volt hybrid that was at the NAIAS in Detroit is using a battery pack like the Tesla's plus an ICE generator, which could be diesel or gasoline, and will get about 150 miles per gallon.


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InvisibleBoom
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Male
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Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6470988 - 01/17/07 09:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6480255 - 01/20/07 06:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Here's a link you might enjoy DKNYD. This company is already helping to set people up as you described using solar shingles. They are available on the market now lavender.




If you're talking about United Solar Ovonics I'm familiar with them. My mom used to work for them a couple years ago but she worked with the nickel-metal-hydride batteries. She introduced me to Stan Ovshinsky once, but it was nothing formal. Just a quick "hello, nice to meet you". They make some great solar cells and they're opening up a new factory in Michigan soon. If I was interested more in PV's I would probably try to get a job there in the next year or two.


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: An "open" energy market [Re: DNKYD]
    #6480358 - 01/20/07 06:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I guess this would be the way you make an open energy market. You take a bunch of energy storage devices like these:

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/index.htm

Either place banks of them in containers or individually distributed throughout cities. The Independent System Operators, the guys that control the power flow for your region, can monitor all activity on these to see if you are taking in power or putting out power. If you are a power-producing house your production means will be documented and the carbon footprint would be factored in.

So for example if you are producing power by burning diesel in a big, old generator you probably wouldn't get as good a price for it as somebody who is producing with cleaner methods like solar or wind. However, if you used B100 in the generator you would get a slightly better price.

Now every night when I want to charge the battery pack for my house and the batteries on my car I just log on and "download" some power from the nearest energy-storage device with the best price I want. Eventually the system will be set up so when you're on a road trip and need to charge the batteries in your car you can plug in anywhere and you'll still be charged for the electricity, not the owner of the building.


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