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OfflineVampireSlayer
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Psilocybin as an antidepressant.
    #6465051 - 01/16/07 09:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why is it that Psilocybin is illegal? We all know it binds to seritonin receptors in the brain, much like antidepressants like MAOI's and SSRI's. We all know that after taking mushrooms day in and day out that the effects are much less of a scatter brain type of effect where psilocybin actually makes you concentrate better and become laid back and happy.

Have you heard of the health risks that antidepressants have on a person? The list is pretty long, where as the reported side effects of the mushrooms are alot less drastic (as far as current research has shown). The most shocking thing about MAOI's and SSRI's is that some of the side effects are depression and suicide. Doesn't that contradict the point of using them? The thought of suicide and depression simply aern't there with mushrooms.

Leaders of the world need to start realising the potential in psilocybin. They have been held back by all of the propaganda when they could possibly be curing many illnesses. It is sad but maybe some day they will realise wha they are doing wrong and do some serious research on the chemical.


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I Don't come to fight flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high and low places


Edited by Pikashroom (01/16/07 09:39 AM)


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OfflinePsy Baba
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: VampireSlayer]
    #6465056 - 01/16/07 09:42 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Shrooms make me giggle. BUT, under the wrong condition or Wrong use You can end up in a very bad state. They are illegal because someone along the way abused them. just as any other law was created.


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Sit up and meditate, there's no time to contemplate.
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I have an international Hitech Psytrance project with a friend: BioChronic
I make various form of Psytrance as a solo Project Dendriform


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: Psy Baba]
    #6465090 - 01/16/07 10:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Are you saying that there are people who don't abuse pharmaceutical anti-depressants? I know plenty.

As for an anti-depressant i get the same effect. Even days after eating mushrooms, i feel like i am more happy.

Long term effects and tolerance may have something to do with it, as well as psychological effects. If you ate mushrooms everyday for its use as an anti-depressant, you will have quite a tolerance and your brain will start feeling like mush. Also there is HPPD disorder causing flashbacks, to be considered. I don't know if this has been proven yet with mushrooms, but i know i have heard from people that swear they get mushroom flashbacks.

As for an mushrooms being an anti-depressant..... I wouldn't say so if you were in the wrong state of mind. For example, after a close relative dies, or you break up with your girlfriend, or you dog gets ran over. Mushrooms have been known to intensify feelings, and if you already feel like shit, mushrooms have the potentiality to increase those feeling tenfold.

I remember crying like a baby when i stepped on my acoustic guitar and it snapped in half while i was high on shrooms. Flash backs of every song i ever played on it, and everything. However i got over it quickly, i can't say it ruined the trip, but was not pleasant at all.



Bubba keeps me happy when i am high


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----------------
"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."


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OfflinePsy Baba
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6465097 - 01/16/07 10:06 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Anti-depressants don't make you visually hallucinate.


--------------------
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Sit up and meditate, there's no time to contemplate.
-------------------------------------------------
I have an international Hitech Psytrance project with a friend: BioChronic
I make various form of Psytrance as a solo Project Dendriform


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Offlinecrimsonblood
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: Psy Baba]
    #6465101 - 01/16/07 10:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i like your point, but there are people who have suicided on mushrooms and gone into deep depression from using them, and i guess SSRI's and MAO's dont make you trip...
i couldnt imagin walking around tripping all the time id go nuts..
but yes antidepressants can cuase some serious side effects to.
and i guess there illegal from people abusing them, and they are strongly mind altering, couldnt even imagin trying to drive a car tripping but the same thing goes for alcohole and other psychoactive subtances.


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Offlinezootroid
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6465186 - 01/16/07 11:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Are you saying that there are people who don't abuse pharmaceutical anti-depressants? I know plenty.

As for an anti-depressant i get the same effect. Even days after eating mushrooms, i feel like i am more happy.

Long term effects and tolerance may have something to do with it, as well as psychological effects. If you ate mushrooms everyday for its use as an anti-depressant, you will have quite a tolerance and your brain will start feeling like mush. Also there is HPPD disorder causing flashbacks, to be considered. I don't know if this has been proven yet with mushrooms, but i know i have heard from people that swear they get mushroom flashbacks.

As for an mushrooms being an anti-depressant..... I wouldn't say so if you were in the wrong state of mind. For example, after a close relative dies, or you break up with your girlfriend, or you dog gets ran over. Mushrooms have been known to intensify feelings, and if you already feel like shit, mushrooms have the potentiality to increase those feeling tenfold.

I remember crying like a baby when i stepped on my acoustic guitar and it snapped in half while i was high on shrooms. Flash backs of every song i ever played on it, and everything. However i got over it quickly, i can't say it ruined the trip, but was not pleasant at all.



Bubba keeps me happy when i am high





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashback_%28psychological_phenomenon%29

"There is a strong emotional component to memory as well, and flashbacks can occur as a rush of feeling, emotions, and sensations that are a part of re-experiencing past trauma."

"When it occurs involuntarily, the flashback may be due to a disorder such as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), such as in cases of remembering a war trauma or sexual abuse trauma, or Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder, and may be related to the use of psychedelic drugs."

I get "mushroom" flashbacks. Not a full blown mushroom trip by any means, but I get all of the emotions/feelings carried along with my bad experience.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: VampireSlayer]
    #6465193 - 01/16/07 11:06 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pikashroom said:
Why is it that Psilocybin is illegal? We all know it binds to seritonin receptors in the brain, much like antidepressants like MAOI's and SSRI's. We all know that after taking mushrooms day in and day out that the effects are much less of a scatter brain type of effect where psilocybin actually makes you concentrate better and become laid back and happy.




Psilocybin absolutely DOES NOT make you 'concentrate better'. You should not be using psilocybin daily, it's just common sense man.

The effects of psilocybin are not like MAOis or SSRIs, I do not know where you are pulling this from? MAOis inhibit your supply of mono-amine oxidase and prevent you from reacting serotonin out of your brain (increases serotonin reservoirs...). SSRIs inhibit re-uptake of serotonin (increases serotonin reservoirs...). Psilocybin is a serotonin receptor agonist, which means it will send signals to the serotonin receptors- it does not up serotonin reservoirs.


Quote:


Have you heard of the health risks that antidepressants have on a person? The list is pretty long, where as the reported side effects of the mushrooms are alot less drastic (as far as current research has shown). The most shocking thing about MAOI's and SSRI's is that some of the side effects are depression and suicide. Doesn't that contradict the point of using them? The thought of suicide and depression simply aern't there with mushrooms.




The psychological side effects of psilocybin make the drug UNSUITABLE for daily use. Thoughts of suicide are absolutely possible with psilocybin.

Quote:


Leaders of the world need to start realising the potential in psilocybin. They have been held back by all of the propaganda when they could possibly be curing many illnesses. It is sad but maybe some day they will realise wha they are doing wrong and do some serious research on the chemical.




You need to stop and think for a moment before you start suggesting psilocybin in such an abusive context. You are no better than the average pharmacist if you start recommending psilocybin as something to escape reality and cover up pain.

The power of psilocybin is the power to analyze yourself and to understand your problems, so that you may correct them. The 'high' is no better than an SSRI's high if you are only using it as such.

If you are using these drugs anywhere near the frequency you are recommending, I suggest you SLOW DOWN. At least, if you ever want to develop a positive relationship with these drugs.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/16/07 01:51 PM)


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OfflineMotorCityMadman
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: Psy Baba]
    #6465237 - 01/16/07 11:24 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

My friend has had full-on, superimposed vortex pattern visuals when she misses a dose of her antidepressant. usually happens if she misses it, goes to bed, and wake up in the middle of the night for some reason. She couldn't find her way to the bathroom without help!

I do wonder if a once- or twice-weekly 1.0-1.5 g dose would work as an antidepressant.

I'm not talking about for people currently in the middle of a severe depressive episode, but more for people with chronic dysthymia.

I know that such a dosing regimen has kept a friend of my friend feeling pretty happy with life!


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Offlinezootroid
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: MotorCityMadman]
    #6465262 - 01/16/07 11:35 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The only way that mushrooms worked as an anti-depressant for me was my ego death trip. I was ecstatic for the first time after that to be alive :smile:


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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: VampireSlayer]
    #6465315 - 01/16/07 12:02 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Every once in a while, I take a pinch of mushroom powder under the tongue before bed. It leaves me clear and contended the next day.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: nycomyco]
    #6465426 - 01/16/07 12:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

you'll never see something like psiloc(yb)in as medecine...

for the same reasons medicinal marijuana is so slow to catch on, as well as pharmeceutical anti-depressants being prescribed far more often than something like st. johns wort which is proven as if not more effective with fewer side effects:

patents.

you can't patent a naturally occuring substance.  therefore you can't make money on it as easily.  its got little to do with the leaders of the world and their politics and propaganda...

it unfortunate but true, money is at the root of these things...  it takes money to research, money to test a product and bring it to market, and the only goal is to make money back and keep stockholders happy... and you thought medecine was to make people better? :smile:


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OfflineJstHereFrTheCake
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: creamcorn]
    #6465593 - 01/16/07 01:23 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Creamcorn said it all.  It's fucked up but it's true.

btw, I wouldn't have put that smiley face at the end of your post. :wink:


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: creamcorn]
    #6465674 - 01/16/07 01:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

creamcorn said:
you'll never see something like psiloc(yb)in as medecine...

for the same reasons medicinal marijuana is so slow to catch on, as well as pharmeceutical anti-depressants being prescribed far more often than something like st. johns wort which is proven as if not more effective with fewer side effects:

patents.

you can't patent a naturally occuring substance.  therefore you can't make money on it as easily.  its got little to do with the leaders of the world and their politics and propaganda...

it unfortunate but true, money is at the root of these things...  it takes money to research, money to test a product and bring it to market, and the only goal is to make money back and keep stockholders happy... and you thought medecine was to make people better? :smile:




It's not so much to do with the drugs themselves, but the type of medicine they associate with. (many RCs could be patented just like any other drug, as could extraction procedures from natural substances)

Psychedelics cannot be used as easy-to-give cures, but they can allow psychotherapy to be phenomenally effective at actually helping a patient to solve psychological issues. This would mean medicine as a whole would be pulled toward a more cure-based way of thinking. This is where profit would be lost.

Without lasting depression, for example (a condition psychedelics have very good potential to cure) the pharmaceutical companies would lose billions in anti-depressant sales.


An even larger factor the medical leadership would likely be concerned with, is the population's confidence in self-treatment. Highly capitalist countries like to have a populace with as little self-treatment confidence as possible. Rather than provide easily available education and safety guidelines for many branches of medicine, a capitalist medical authority would generally prefer to maximize global dependence upon themselves.

Psychedelics represent the inevitability of the average man's eventual realization of his ability to self-treat. This is the type of insight that comes reliably while using psychedelics. Very unprofitable.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/16/07 01:54 PM)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6465958 - 01/16/07 03:17 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Just a few things:

Currently available antidepressant therapies work mainly through increasing synaptic concentrations of serotonin and NE. Few work through direct activation of serotonergic receptors. It is also evident that the activation of serotonerigc receptors (second messenger cascades, activation of immediate early genes etc.) by psilocin and (related hallucinogens) is clearly different than that of endogenous serotonin.

There are some studies going on investigating the use of entheogens and hallucinogens in treating psychological disorders. (I'm sure most have heard of the use of MDMA in treating PTSD).

other than personal anecdote, (which, may carry weight depending on how you look at it) there isn't a lot of evidence to indicate the use of psilocybin in depression. And even if it were useful, there are a lot of others factors which might not make it a good choice.

For one, you would have to think of the consequences of "handing out" psilocybin via prescription. Assuming this would NOT occur, you have to look at its potential "real world" therapeutic use: in therapy, with a trained counselor. For psilocybin to be of use, it would take a lot of resources (multiple trips to the therapist, hours spent at each session to prepare for the drugs effects, followup sessions etc.)

Now look at the demographics of depressed individuals (and the sheer number). Financially, its not a good option.

While people "blame" pharmaceutical companies for profiting and providing a "quick fix" in pill form, there aren't a lot of more attractive options.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinesadspacemonkey
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: badchad]
    #6466159 - 01/16/07 04:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Currently available antidepressant therapies work mainly through increasing synaptic concentrations of serotonin and NE. Few work through direct activation of serotonergic receptors. It is also evident that the activation of serotonerigc receptors (second messenger cascades, activation of immediate early genes etc.) by psilocin and (related hallucinogens) is clearly different than that of endogenous serotonin.




While what you say is true to my knowledge, I fail to see what you're trying to prove by pointing out the difference between the two. OK, SSRIs clog up your brain with serotonin and psilocybin is shaped like serotonin and gets the receptors all happy- so? The fact that they work differently should encourage patients that don't respond well to antidepressants. In my experience, mushrooms are a great alternative to those meds.

Quote:

other than personal anecdote, (which, may carry weight depending on how you look at it) there isn't a lot of evidence to indicate the use of psilocybin in depression.




In my opinion, the subject is no where near exhausted. I don't think lack of convincing studies means much at this point.

Quote:

Assuming this would NOT occur, you have to look at its potential "real world" therapeutic use: in therapy, with a trained counselor. For psilocybin to be of use, it would take a lot of resources (multiple trips to the therapist, hours spent at each session to prepare for the drugs effects, followup sessions etc.)




This is what happens anyway. A doctor won't just give you pills and you're scott free until your refills run out. In every hospital/clinic/health center I've been to (and I've been to quite a few) it's a requirement that you attend regular therapy sessions while on medication, in addition to your meetings with a psychiatrist. The major difference would be the actual 'trip' if it's going to be regulated to that extent. Therapy sessions are usually 45 minutes to an hour.

Quote:

While people "blame" pharmaceutical companies for profiting and providing a "quick fix" in pill form, there aren't a lot of more attractive options.



I think there is an attractive option...inform the public of both the positive and negative aspects of mushrooms, and let them pursue it if they believe they it will benefit them.

Of course it's not that easy. It's just that tripping twice a month or so practically 'cured' me of horrible major depression that plagued me for over ten years. No, shrooms won't help you after a big bad incident, but when it comes to this chronic stuff that saps your will to live...I think people should know about it. Before I actively researched this stuff I was just terrified of mushrooms- I just thought they made you see scary shit, end of story. But now I'm endlessly grateful I read an article that inspired me to challenge my own incorrect opinion.


--------------------

"I can't be told by anyone how to live. If I said to the minister 'Move from your home' he would think I was mad." Bushman : Botswana


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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: badchad]
    #6466179 - 01/16/07 04:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

the only way i could see psilocybin/psilocin as a prescription drug would be a psychologist providing for a psychological procedre much like hypnosis... other then that i don't really see how it can help in the medical world. :smile:


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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: sadspacemonkey]
    #6466184 - 01/16/07 04:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

lots of shrroms and Alcohol can has led to suicides.....
But so has just alcohol......

I've never been suicidal on shrooms, in fact, i loose my mind on shrooms, and usually forget that i am even alive in the first place.

So if i odnt know that i even exist, how can i be depressed?
Yea shrooms make for a great anti-depressant.... they make for a great anything as a matter o factually.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: sadspacemonkey]
    #6466243 - 01/16/07 04:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sadspacemonkey said:

While what you say is true to my knowledge, I fail to see what you're trying to prove by pointing out the difference between the two. OK, SSRIs clog up your brain with serotonin and psilocybin is shaped like serotonin and gets the receptors all happy- so? The fact that they work differently should encourage patients that don't respond well to antidepressants. In my experience, mushrooms are a great alternative to those meds.




My comment was simply in response to the OP, who asked why psilocybin wasn't used in depression when it was structurally similar to 5-HT, and current antidepressants work mainly on 5-HT.

Quote:

sadspacemonkey said:

In my opinion, the subject is no where near exhausted. I don't think lack of convincing studies means much at this point.





You're correct, but in deciding on how to treat patients, usually it is best to form a hypothesis as to why something may work beforehand or to have some evidence to support a claim.


Quote:

sadspacemonkey said: This is what happens anyway. A doctor won't just give you pills and you're scott free until your refills run out. In every hospital/clinic/health center I've been to (and I've been to quite a few) it's a requirement that you attend regular therapy sessions while on medication, in addition to your meetings with a psychiatrist. The major difference would be the actual 'trip' if it's going to be regulated to that extent. Therapy sessions are usually 45 minutes to an hour.




I can't comment on clinical practice as I'm not sure whats required for a prescription. I was trying to point out that in the use of psilocybin, it would have to be monitored and someone present during it's use. (which is different and more labor intensive than allowing a patient to pick up and take a script at his/her convenience).

YES, I agree psilocybin has potential, but its my opinion it will not become mainstream or "standard" care.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: badchad]
    #6466320 - 01/16/07 05:02 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, you can use mushrooms for depression. But you must realize they are not a cure. They are teachers and will help you find a path out of depression. Antidepressants are clearly abused by people, but more so by profit driven doctors. There is a TV commerciat that says, "get you kids checked. One out of 5 is mentally ill. Fucking horseshit. This is a way to get everybody hooked on and fucked up by these drugs.

I can truely say that mushrooms will help depression. If I took these every month, I would not have gotten so fucked up by antidepressants. They give you mass confusion, side effects and will damage your liver after a long time. They are poor substitutes for natural medicine. Most doctors will try to keep you on these drugs for the rest of you life.

I will also suggest that half of the people on this forum who are taking antidepressants probably do not need them. This is how doctors today deal with any problem. New diseases like restless leg syndrome and ADD are created every year to make people richer. If you are taking toxic antidepressants, you should be trying to move on. They do work for some people, but not even half of the 80 million people who were told they have to take this shit by doctors.


"While people "blame" pharmaceutical companies for profiting and providing a "quick fix" in pill form, there aren't a lot of more attractive options."

Don't believe everything you are force fed...


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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Psilocybin as an antidepressant. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6466609 - 01/16/07 06:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the detailed info ExplosiveMango.

A couple things.

First, I've noticed that the anti-depressant effects seem to kick in AFTER the psilocin/psilocybin wears off. I feel invigorated and refreshed the next day, as if my brain's reset button was hit. I don't sense any residual effects of a drug, just that I emerge from the trip with an uncluttered mind that is not so prone to depression. These anti-depressant effects seem to last for a week or so.

Second, it isn't any kind of conspiracy. It's not about patents. It's not even about money. Shrooms got caught up with several other drugs in the crackdown on hippies '69-'71. Unfortunately no effort was made to treat drugs differently based on their safety or benefits. They remain illegal today because they are still associated (unfairly or not) with the image of the anti-establishment drugged out hippie, and because most researchers don't want to go to the trouble of getting DEA authorization for psilocybin research.

Credible scientific and medical research on the benefits and safety of shrooms is the best way to ultimately legalize it, and psilocybin's ability to treat depression might be the key.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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