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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
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Suffering...
    #6459412 - 01/14/07 07:20 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Everyone suffers. Mother nature wouldnt have it any other way. The movie stars, the famous people, who have everything, who lots of people aspire to be, they suffer too, they are only human.
The hippy, who many of you may aspire to be, suffers (tho he or she probably deals with it much better, and as a result may be happier).

We cant avoid suffering, no matter how much we work to get money to be able to take a vacation, no matter if we avoid working to be happy and content with what we have.
Some of us think, society sucks i want to go live in the woods without anyone to bother me. Youre going to suffer loneliness, the environment(ice, sun, rain, wind), hunger, thirst, fear, maybe insanity.
Others may try to surrond themselves with people, to fill the void others have left, but they may realize that these others do not satisfy what the original person fufilled. (everything you want brings something else instead).
No matter if we are alone because people have hurt us
Or if we are with others as we may be lonely
'Everything we want brings something else instead'
Suffering is unavoidable, so, we must accept that we will suffer
'Trying to avoid suffering is creating it'
'We must become suffering'
'Hope for the best, prepare for the worst'
'The more we try to avoid suffering, the longer we prolong it'
'Shortcuts are self-defeating means'
Just accept it; youre going to suffer, but realizing that allows you to be happier (understand) and deal with it better..
Happy trails my brothers and sisters, and YOU too! :p


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459428 - 01/14/07 07:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The first noble truth: there is suffering
The second: suffering has a cause
The third: there is an end to suffering
The fourth: there is a path that will lead to the end of suffering, called the eightfold path.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: dblaney]
    #6459453 - 01/14/07 07:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree, there is no path that will lead to ending suffering


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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OfflineSyle
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Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459462 - 01/14/07 07:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CerebralFlower said:
I disagree, there is no path that will lead to ending suffering




how can you be so sure?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: Syle]
    #6459588 - 01/14/07 08:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i never claimed to be sure :smile:
but i know we live in the natural world. and i am only speaking through my experience and others.
so when you get scrape your hand on the piece of paper and get cut and go through physical pain, or when your mom dies and you are suffering... dont say i didnt tell you so
"when life looks like easy street there is danger at your door"

I will always consider both options, enlighten me! :smile:


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459724 - 01/14/07 08:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

While there is not a significant difference in the dictionary definitions of "pain" and "suffering," there are different connotations to the latter word.

Suffer, variant of Latin sufferre, "to bear, undergo, endure, carry or put under," includes the connotations of being burdened with persistent and perhaps incurable pain. When applied to one's emotions, this description is melodramatic and potentially self-fulfilling.

This latter variety of pain seems more linked to neurosis than to any actual ailment. The clinging to "should" and "must" and "it isn't fair" when faced with a non-preferable situation = creating suffering. IMO, this pain is purely self-inflicted, and not an essential element of being human.

I may not be able to opt out of the physical pain of a paper cut, but I can choose to either take it in stride, put a band-aid on it and go on with my day, or to piss and moan and emotionally amplify my experience of the minor physical pain.

The same is true of emotional pain, if I experience a loss or disappointment, I will not be able to choose whether I have an emotional response, but I absolutely can choose the meaning which I assign to my experience.


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: Veritas]
    #6459758 - 01/14/07 08:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

so you wont suffer when your parents die? Or when you get a paper cut, or some unimaginablly horrible fate flows through your life, such as your house being burned down, you being mugged, or someone raping your girlfriend? You wont suffer then?


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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OfflineGrok
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Re: Suffering... [Re: Veritas]
    #6459778 - 01/14/07 08:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You can experience life however you choose. Suffering is a choice, not a stuck condition. Personally I'd say that suffering could end when you completley overcome all fear, when you realize that you always have what you need, and that you don't have to do anything, and that you have nothing to lose save what you attach meaning and purpose to.

Fear, and attachment, are the only enemies of mankind.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459791 - 01/14/07 08:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CerebralFlower said:
I disagree, there is no path that will lead to ending suffering



From everything I've heard, Siddhartha Gautama found exactly such a path, as did many bodhisattvas and arhants after him(and many saddhus before him).


--------------------


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459804 - 01/14/07 08:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CerebralFlower said:
so you wont suffer when your parents die? Or when you get a paper cut, or some unimaginablly horrible fate flows through your life, such as your house being burned down, you being mugged, or someone raping your girlfriend? You wont suffer then?



Will you not suffer if any of these things happen?


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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OfflineGrok
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Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459817 - 01/14/07 08:57 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Not if you are aware of the fact that ultimately these things do not matter, and that pain is an illusion, 'you' can never be hurt or killed, because you are eternal. The problem is that we associate ourselves with our bodies, when they are but something we have, that can be replaced.

Suffering is easy to avoid if you have nothing to lose.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


Edited by cilosyb (01/14/07 08:59 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459826 - 01/14/07 08:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

If by suffer, you mean intentionally and deliberately prolong my natural physical or emotional pain, I hope that I will not.  I hope that I have learned enough thus far in my life to experience the pain fully, and then gracefully let it go.  I hope that I will remember to ask myself "how can I use this" or "what is the lesson," rather than reiterating the toxic question "why me?"  I hope that the work I've done to resolve my neurotic attachments to life always being pleasant and easy will be enough.

I continue to work on emotionally releasing the things, people and conditions in my life, and move toward embracing the ever-changing version of WHAT IS.  This has greatly reduced my suffering, and made it clear that the suffering I do experience is of my own creation.

I do still get paper cuts sometimes, but I don't let 'em bother me.  :wink:  I'll be facing larger tests when I face the deaths of those close to me, but I already faced the losses of grandmother, father, and grandfather before I was 14, and moved on with my life.  I remember them, miss them when they come to mind, but do not see my life as diminished by their absence.

Pain, loss and challenges may be an inevitable part of the human experience, but suffering (IMO) is optional.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459827 - 01/14/07 08:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CerebralFlower said:
so you wont suffer when your parents die? Or when you get a paper cut, or some unimaginablly horrible fate flows through your life, such as your house being burned down, you being mugged, or someone raping your girlfriend? You wont suffer then?




There is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is one facet of life. As you say, it is unavoidable. However, suffering is another story. Suffering (duhka) is a sort of delusive reaction to pain. It is when we want something to be other than it is.

If my parents die, I'm sure I'll be sad and will experience pain, that's pretty much normal. However, if I add on to that raw experience my own ideas of how things should be: that they shouldn't have died, or that I shouldn't feel pain, etc, then that is suffering.

Suffering arises when we want reality to be other than it is. If someone cuts off my foot, I will experience lots of pain, no doubt. But if I wish that reality was any other way, then that is suffering. It's entirely needless.

The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause. That cause is craving. Wanting this moment to be any other way that it currently is. We experience craving because we think we really exist. we think that we are an actual entity, an enduring individual. Yet this is not the case. Every instant we die and are reborn entirely new. There is nothing that endures or persists. There is only pervasive change.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/25/05
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Re: Suffering... [Re: Grok]
    #6459829 - 01/14/07 09:00 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

ahh i get to ask you another question

intellectually aware that pain is an illusion? becuase you can use that as a mantra all you want and it may do nothing more than help you get through it a little easier

how does one really know this and grasp it so fully that one has transcended suffering forever?

purely intellectually i might know a lot of things... i am that man who is crossing the street and i should be patient for his cadence lest i live in a world where impatience is the chief operating force and cannot expect others to.... etc...

but.

there must be something more than reasoning.

and dblanely it sounds like you have more than a clue about what the hell you are talking about. that is a refreshing rehashing of Buddhist thought.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (01/14/07 09:02 PM)


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: leery11]
    #6459920 - 01/14/07 09:23 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

dBlaney has a good idea leery, peace, peace, damnit!

man, so here is the problem, im defining suffering as physical or mental pain or anguish.
Maybe some of you are defining it as purely mental..

Quote:

I'm sure I'll be sad and will experience pain, that's pretty much normal



If being sad and expeirencing pain ARENT suffering, i dont know what is?


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



Edited by CerebralFlower (01/14/07 09:35 PM)


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 5,998
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Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6459968 - 01/14/07 09:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

well, some people can be hypnotized to undergo surgery without anesthesia.

we're more than just an animal but, how much more?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Suffering... [Re: leery11]
    #6460030 - 01/14/07 09:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

im defining suffering as physical or mental pain or anguish.




I differentiate between them. I would call physical pain "pain" and mental pain "suffering". Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
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Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: leery11]
    #6460079 - 01/14/07 09:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

well, some people can be hypnotized to undergo surgery without anesthesia.

we're more than just an animal but, how much more?




I think how much more varies, from generation to generation, as our minds evolve more and more each generation, usually..

animals suffer, just as much as humans. Sometimes more than average, sometimes less, but that is karma (i think).

I think what youre saying is either theyre hyptontized to be detached from their nerves, or to produce copious amounts of endorphins
:heart: everyone


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



Edited by CerebralFlower (01/14/07 10:28 PM)


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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Suffering... [Re: dblaney]
    #6460236 - 01/14/07 10:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

im defining suffering as physical or mental pain or anguish.




I differentiate between them. I would call physical pain "pain" and mental pain "suffering". Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.




Sadness is not mental pain?

How can we seperate the physical and mental if the two are tied together? If atleast some of our thoughts come from, or are influenced by, our physical body, and our pyhsical body is influenced by our thoughts, how can one draw a distinction?

Especially after AFOAF took lots of physcadelics, he began to notice lots of mental pain being manifested in the physical form, or negative thoughts to have a negative effect on parts of their body, or as a whole.


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Suffering... [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6460246 - 01/14/07 10:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i notice sometimes that thoughts and emotional patterns come from my body as well, i think i have stratified my mind to follow the chakra system.

what i was saying about hypnosis is that some people can transcend suffering through using their brains skillfully.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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