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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Do you think sanctions work?
    #6428806 - 01/05/07 07:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This econmic strategy has been around for a long period of time. Of course the ramifications go beyond the monetary aspect. I will give a recent example, however, please throw in your two cents, and give examples, pro or con.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070104-112337-4050r.htm



Sanctions imposed on Iran, Syria arms suppliers
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 5, 2007


The Bush administration is imposing economic sanctions on Chinese, Russian and North Korean companies for selling missiles and weapons goods to Iran and Syria, administration officials said.

The sanctions were imposed earlier this week on three Chinese state-run companies, three Russian firms and a North Korean mining company under a 2000 arms proliferation law that was renamed Iran and Syria Nonproliferation Act in 2005.

The sanctions ban U.S. government business and support to the companies for two years and block U.S. firms from selling them items that require export licenses.

They are largely symbolic, but U.S. officials have been effective in publicly singling out companies that are engaged in selling arms to rogue states.

The Bush administration has imposed sanctions more than 40 times since 2001 as part of a more aggressive push to stop arms transfers to rogue states or unstable regions of the world.

The law requires the imposition of sanctions on companies, governments and people caught transferring missiles, weapons of mass destruction materials or advanced conventional arms to Iran or Syria.

The officials said the sanctions were imposed after an interagency review of intelligence on transfers that happened within the past two years.

Specific details of the transfers were not released, but officials said they included missile sales to Syria and arms sales and transfers of weapons-related goods to both Iran and Syria.

The sanctions ban the companies from conducting business with U.S. companies for two years and are likely to affect the Russians more than the Chinese and North Korean companies because of the potential to block sales of aircraft-related materials to U.S. manufacturers.

The Chinese companies are the Zibo Chemical Equipment Plant, which has been linked to chemical-weapons sales, the China National Aerotechnology Import Export Corp. and the China National Electrical Import and Export Co.

The Korean Mining and Industrial Development Corp. also was sanctioned for its role in the transfers. An official said the North Korean company, which was linked in the past to air shipments of missiles from North Korea to Iran, is a "serial proliferator."

The new sanctions could affect the six-nation talks on North Korea's nuclear program. Until last month, North Korea rejected further talks with five other nations because of what Pyongyang called economic sanctions against a Macao bank that U.S. officials said North Korea was using for money laundering and counterfeiting


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/05/07 10:41 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6446594 - 01/10/07 09:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

They don't work exect for superficial and minor issues. When it comes to an issue on which the targeted nation has a firm belief in their stance, they do nothing.

Sanctions are more about pride and flexing muscles for show than anything else. Bullies make use of them, and it is psychologically a bully tactic.

The US refused to negotiate with terrorists who hold hostages, but they'll hold supplies hostage to other nations, and suprise, suprise, those nations refuse to negotiate a settlement in just the same manner.

Sanctions = Terrorism.

That's the premise of a sanction. The target is afraid of the results so they comply to the demands... at least that's the hope of the terrorist.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6446800 - 01/10/07 10:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The don't work period unless they are multilateral.

Even then, they more often then not do not affect the leaders of a said country, instead making the poor and middle class suffer. Also, they often have a negative effect on US businesses.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6447140 - 01/11/07 12:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think it depends on what kind of sanctions and how broadly they're implemented. They should be used specifically to cause economic hardship, but those almost always hit the poor hardest while the dictator and upper class remain largely unaffected. If it's sanctions on weapons or certain materials, then they might have some effect, if enough countries cooperate with the sanctions.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6450222 - 01/11/07 09:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Some types of sanctions:


International sanctions, punitive measures adopted by a country or group of countries against another nation for political reasons

Diplomatic sanctions, the reduction or removal of diplomatic ties, such as embassies

Economic sanctions, typically a ban on trade, possibly limited to certain sectors such as armaments, or with certain exceptions (such as food and medicine)

Military sanctions, military intervention

Trade sanctions, economic sanctions applied for non-political reasons, typically as part of a trade dispute, or for purely economic reasons, and typically involving tariffs or similar measures, rather than bans.



Without looking at this issue too blind, I do see how some sanctions would effect the innocent, of any country......

Not to make this thread to convoluted........but what about Cuba? Did the USA fuck that up?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6450754 - 01/12/07 01:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Not to make this thread to convoluted........but what about Cuba? Did the USA fuck that up?



Considering that the goal was to oust Castro, who has had a longer reign than any other dictator, is there any doubt at all?


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6451317 - 01/12/07 08:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Sanctions CAN work great, but there are a few requirements:

1) Sanctions ONLY work against a country that has elected officials, pseudo-elections don't count. People who are economically depressed need to be able to use their vote to change the situation, otherwise it won't matter. Theoretically they could work against a "compassionate dictator" or one who is living in fear of rebellion, but in those situations we usually don't employ sanctions anyway.

2) Sanctions need to be used to cause widespread economic hardship, "industry specific" sanctions almost never work, unless it's a "key" industry or one that's already in danger.

3) Sanctions need to be imposed by enough consumers/producers that an impact is actually felt. As an example, if the US alone stopped allowing Chinese clothing imports, that would be felt by China. However, if the US alone stopped allowing Iranian Qur'an imports, that probably wouldn't so anything.

As the sanctions outlined in this article do not target populations that hold real elections (Russian elections haven't been legitimate since the early 1990s), and not designed to cause widespread economic distress, and don't involve other key producers/consumers (specifically China and Russia), they're clearly not going to work.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: Economist]
    #6451946 - 01/12/07 01:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting......anyway, the reason why I started this thread, is that throughout my exposure to politics, I have seen this tactic, or rather strategy, thrown around like a punch line from a bad movie. It seems that this type of paper fuck, although originally intended for positive purposes, usually nothing of substance comes from it. Its like shadow boxing yourself, most of the time. Can anyone point to any type of recent sanction (say 30 years) that has had a profound effect?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6453015 - 01/12/07 07:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I know of one recent instance where sanctions worked really well in order to enforce the decision of an international body.

In 2002 Bush imposed a tariff on imported steel for mostly political reasons. The tariff would allow the American steel industry to retain jobs by reducing foreign competition. Since the American steel industry was located in mostly swing states (specifically Ohio and Pennsylvania) this could potentially help the Republicans stay in power.

The EU didn't like this and took US to dispute resolution in the WTO. The WTO ruled that the US was violating free-trade rules with such an arbitrary and political tariff, and suggested that the EU impose retalitory sanctions.

The EU threatened to specifically limit imports of oranges, but only those grown in Florida, potentially robbing the Republicans of votes where they were needed in that state.

Bush then immediately withdrew the steel tariff.

(the Wikipedia article tells the story pretty well, plus a little more background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_tariffs )

Obviously this isn't the most interesting sanctions story, they didn't avert a shooting war or anything. Infact, since tariffs themselves are a form of sanction, it was really just one sanction used to defeat another. Still, I think it makes a good story.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: Economist]
    #6453174 - 01/12/07 07:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Nice, but I don't think that's what anybody means by sanctions here.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6453776 - 01/12/07 11:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Political sanctions seem to be utterly ineffective. Cuba is perhaps the largest example. Fidel Castro is now the longest serving head of state in the world, has outlived numerous presidents who supported sanctions against him, and after 48 years of Castro ruling the country, mostly Cubans have suffered.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlineastralplaynes
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Re: Do you think sanctions work? [Re: Basilides]
    #6454130 - 01/13/07 01:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

sanctions are like time out's for children WORTHLESS!!Sometimes you gotta beat that ass to get their attention!!


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