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Offlinehoopershroomer
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i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT
    #6450029 - 01/11/07 08:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

ok so i was just sitting down watching a college basketball game, pretty stoned and i saw this guy hit a 3 point, nothing but net, SWISH jumpshot and i was thinking in my head, man that was a perfect shot.

this then lead me to start thinking about perfectism and how none is perfect. So i started thinking deeply on this and kept resurfacing in my head "no one is perfect, no one is perfect". but then i got the thinking....if no one is perfect, then is there even really such a THING as perfect???and if there is such a thing as perfect and no one is perfect, the GOD must be perfect, ya know?

im saying, if its sought to be that noone on earth is perfect, then there has to BE something PERFECT in order to counteract this thought right??

so i kinda came to a conclusion thats not completey strait edge and final, and that is



if no one is perfect,then the most perfect thing is GOD. That is the most perfect thing in existance......
but if there is no god, OR, if no one really isnt perfect then in retrospect EVERYONE IS PERFECT!!!!!! :grin: :sun:

does that make sense to you guys? what do you all think about this??


--------------------
"Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego."

"You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself."

A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion"

"Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."

:peace: & :heart:


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Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6450059 - 01/11/07 08:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I look at it two ways, either nothing is perfect, or everything is perfect, and along the way, we (humans) traded our perfection for comfort


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Offlineleery11
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: demiu5]
    #6450081 - 01/11/07 09:03 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

it makes sense


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineNalim
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6450141 - 01/11/07 09:22 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Perfect is pretty much only a construct of our worldly psyche..

But if I was to believe in the word perfect this would be my opinion:
If there is such a thing as a God and he is perfect, and creates imperfect beings then is not he himself flawed?

If one person is perfect and there is a God, isn't it so that god also must be perfect to create this being? And if god is perfect he only creates perfect beings and then all is perfect.

So all is perfect or all is flawed.


--------------------

Rodney Brooks on Robots
Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Nalim]
    #6450158 - 01/11/07 09:27 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

My money is on 'flawed'.


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OfflineNalim
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: adrug]
    #6450168 - 01/11/07 09:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Mine to, I couldn't possibly be such an a-hole and still be perfect :mrburns:


--------------------

Rodney Brooks on Robots
Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6450361 - 01/11/07 10:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"Perfect", of course, is merely a name. And just as a person is not really their name, Reality is not really 'perfect'. Although as far as constructing a map of reality goes, which is what we're doing here, I would say that reality, as such, is totally complete and perfect at every instant. There is nothing outside of this present moment, no past, no future. This present moment is absolute; complete unto itself.

No need to bring in supernatural beings, they are a part of reality too (maybe).

Continue with this line of thought, it leads to some profound and important conclusions.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineGomp
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6450471 - 01/11/07 11:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"Perfectly I'm·perfect!"
-Unknown


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OfflineMaitereya
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Gomp]
    #6450518 - 01/11/07 11:24 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

im going to go with everything and everyone is perfect because everyone and everything is 'god'. threfore god is perfect and everyone is perfect. there is no or.


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Maitereya]
    #6450762 - 01/12/07 01:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

dblaney said:
Quote:

"Perfect", of course, is merely a name. And just as a person is not really their name, Reality is not really 'perfect'. Although as far as constructing a map of reality goes, which is what we're doing here, I would say that reality, as such, is totally complete and perfect at every instant. There is nothing outside of this present moment, no past, no future. This present moment is absolute; complete unto itself.




:thumbup:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Gomp]
    #6450778 - 01/12/07 01:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
"Perfectly I'm·perfect!"
-Unknown




:earth: :thumbup: :mushroom2:  :chew:  :laugh: :crazy2: :shineon:

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


--------------------


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OfflineGrok
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6452084 - 01/12/07 02:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

By acknowledging imperfection, we acknowlegde that things could be "perfect". It's a matter of who's defining perfect.

Either everything is perfect or everything is imperfect, because it's all the same really.

We can at least acknowledge that everything simply is. It's always been how its been and it'll be how it'll be, no matter how we judge it.

I would agree, that everything is perfect.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


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OfflineDroz
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Grok]
    #6452284 - 01/12/07 03:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Perfection is a human created idea. Perfect is not who we are but what we try to be. Leave nothing behind. Also things are so imperfect that when we try to reach perfection we are only creating this illusion that things are better. Things are only different. Difference is.

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Droz]
    #6452610 - 01/12/07 05:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

No, perfection is the state of being without flaws, for a person or for an object, or for love or existence. Anything, minus all flaws, would be perfection.




Quote:

im saying, if its sought to be that noone on earth is perfect, then there has to BE something PERFECT in order to counteract this thought right??



Deffinitely  :thumbup:


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Offlinejonnyjonjonjon
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6452746 - 01/12/07 05:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Im perfect. Its all a matter of perspective. Is a perfect circle perfect? Maybe its supposed to be a square.


--------------------
Mother goose said to the swan "Is that PCP your cooking?" and the swan replied "Yes, yes it is.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: jonnyjonjonjon]
    #6452881 - 01/12/07 06:31 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That it's a matter of perspective could be an imperfect view of it. Are you perfect? Why? Just because you're you and no one has authority to tell you different?

Being acceptable, being perfectly acceptable as you are, isn't the same as being perfect as you are.


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OfflineGrok
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Droz]
    #6453139 - 01/12/07 07:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Droz said:
Perfection is a human created idea.




What do we think about that isn't? Are not all of our thoughts human created ideas about ourselves and what's around us?


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


Edited by cilosyb (01/12/07 07:36 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Grok]
    #6453217 - 01/12/07 07:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

But reality doesn't conform to our concepts, our concepts conform to reality.
Ideas aren't really human created, just as perfection isn't, but humans need to go through a process of leaning to make use of them.
I think ideas are a reaction to reality.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6453381 - 01/12/07 08:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

God is absolutely PERFECT. Not only that but He demands this same perfection from His creatures. Now this is a real problem, since no one is perfect, and God demands perfection, men are in real trouble. God can not even look upon anything that is less than perfect. God's wrath is kindled by every form of imperfection.

In order that men may see the righteous demand of God, He has given the law, which can be summed up as love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and love thy neighbor as thyself. Now men, since they are blind to the perfect righteousness of God, go about to follow these commands thinking that they can somehow, by their own merits, find favor with God. They have missed what the law was given for. The law is to get people to realize that they can never obey its demands, it is a killing instrument. It is to turn them away from their own righteous efforts and drive them to the only one who met God's righteous demands PERFECTLY, Jesus Christ. Jesus, since He is perfect, God can look at Him, and be perfectly pleased. Jesus obeyed the law in its strictest form, having come under the wrath of God for the sins (imperfections) of His people. God's wrath was poured out on Jesus for those imperfections. These imperfections were imputed to Him. In turn the perfect righteousness of Jesus is imputed to His people. This is the only way a sinner can be reconciled to God.

Nothing a sinner does can be pleasing to God. The best religious efforts are like filthy rags. Once a man is brought into conviction of God's righteousness and his own imperfection and darkness, only then can he begin to understand the gospel, which is good news to hell deserving sinners. Every part of salvation is a free gift, which is in no way contingent a sinner meeting a condition. Sinners come with nothing but sin, they have no purchasing power, they are spiritually bankrupt and lost. But He came to seek and save that which was lost. Praise God who is both PERFECT and merciful.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6453634 - 01/12/07 10:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God is absolutely PERFECT. Not only that but He demands this same perfection from His creatures.



Impossible. Having such impossible expectations would inherently make someone imperfect. A perfect driver would not expect his car to drive forever without refueling. To be perfect implies perfect understanding, which implies realistic expectations. Therefore, your argument is self-contradictory. QED


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Silversoul]
    #6453722 - 01/12/07 10:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"Impossible. Having such impossible expectations would inherently make someone imperfect. "

To fallen men it is an impossible expectation to demand perfection, but man was not created fallen. Man was created in God's image and very good. The expectation is not impossible for pre-fall man to keep and therefore it is not an impossible expectation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6453735 - 01/12/07 10:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Great, so God can demand perfection from Adam and Eve. What's that got to do with me? Surely God would know that everyone since Adam and Eve was born in a fallen state(an apparent glitch in a system created by a supposedly perfect being), and therefore would adjust his expectations accordingly. If God is still holding us to the standards of pre-fallen man, then he is stubborn and living in the past, and therefore far from perfect.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Silversoul]
    #6453891 - 01/12/07 11:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Great, so God can demand perfection from Adam and Eve. What's that got to do with me? Surely God would know that everyone since Adam and Eve was born in a fallen state(an apparent glitch in a system created by a supposedly perfect being), and therefore would adjust his expectations accordingly. If God is still holding us to the standards of pre-fallen man, then he is stubborn and living in the past, and therefore far from perfect.





Because fallen man becomes wicked God should lower His standards? God can never lower His standards, He is perfectly righteous. The standard remains unchanged, yet He sends Jesus to come under that same standard, to suffer the atonement, in all its strictness for trangression. God remain Just and Justifier of His people.

The fall was not a glitch in the system, it is an integral part of God's ordination of all events. No fall = no redemption = no display of righteousness = no display of mercy and love. The end of all these things is the display of His glory.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6454387 - 01/13/07 03:07 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Because fallen man becomes wicked God should lower His standards?



A wise man sets his standards according to what can be achieved, not what is impossible.


--------------------


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OfflineGrok
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6458863 - 01/14/07 04:15 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Because fallen man becomes wicked God should lower His standards? God can never lower His standards, He is perfectly righteous. The standard remains unchanged, yet He sends Jesus to come under that same standard, to suffer the atonement, in all its strictness for trangression. God remain Just and Justifier of His people.

The fall was not a glitch in the system, it is an integral part of God's ordination of all events. No fall = no redemption = no display of righteousness = no display of mercy and love. The end of all these things is the display of His glory.




Jesus didn't die for your sins, because there's no such thing as sin.

For an all-mighty/all powerful God, he sure made a screwy bunch of people. If 'he' was perfect why didn't he make us perfect? Seems like 'he' would be able to, being perfect and all powerful and such. This notion of 'God' is completley ridiculous, it's sickening to me to be a part of a species who's ideas revolve around such a God. A mean fucker God. Who supposedly loves us as well. Total hypocrisy, yet accepted with no question among those with blind faith. It's no wonder why we're so content to accept all of the hypocrisy in the world...humanity was dominated by people who believed in a hypocritical God. Fucking sickening.

Your 'God' is weak because his love is unconditional. The real 'God' is the infinite, unconditional love existing in and between all things. Be unconditional love, and you are God.

We have a problem trying to make a distincion between what God is and what God is not. There are no distinctions. WE ARE 'GOD'.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Grok]
    #6459168 - 01/14/07 05:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Jesus didn't die for your sins, because there's no such thing as sin.

Actually sin is very clearly defined, it is a breakage of the law. Now what is the law you might ask?

The first law given and broken was when Adam disobeyed God's command:
Gen 3:16-7 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam was the Federal head of the race and this original sin was judicially imputed to all that came after him. All are guilty and condemned in Adam. All have a fallen nature due to the first transgression.

The Mosaic law came much later than this, but men still physically died prior to the Mosaic law, proving they are condemned in the first transgression. The Mosaic law magnified sin because man is fallen and can only do what his nature is inclined to, which is sin.

I don't know if Jesus died for a person's sins or not. We know Jesus is the only propitiation for sin that God will accept. We also know that God chose a people that Jesus would die for and deliver. The atonement is not hypothetically universal, but particular, intended for the elect of God. God loves those who believe the gospel, unbelievers who die that way evidences they are not loved of God. Note the love of God is not hinged on believing, but believing is the evidence of the love, since even the faith is a free gift.


For an all-mighty/all powerful God, he sure made a screwy bunch of people. If 'he' was perfect why didn't he make us perfect? Seems like 'he' would be able to, being perfect and all powerful and such.

All things are ordained in order that God's glory may be fully known, this includes the fall and redemption. If everyone was made perfect then no evil would exist, and no redemption and His glory would not be revealed.

This notion of 'God' is completely ridiculous, it's sickening to me to be a part of a species who's ideas revolve around such a God. A mean fucker God. Who supposedly loves us as well. Total hypocrisy, yet accepted with no question among those with blind faith. It's no wonder why we're so content to accept all of the hypocrisy in the world...humanity was dominated by people who believed in a hypocritical God. Fucking sickening.

I'm sorry, but I do not see any hypocritical God. You equate righteous judgement with meanness. The amazing fact that He would save anyone from this fallen mass, and not universally damn everyone, is truly astonishing.

Your 'God' is weak because his love is unconditional. The real 'God' is the infinite, unconditional love existing in and between all things. Be unconditional love, and you are God.

We have a problem trying to make a distinction between what God is and what God is not. There are no distinctions. WE ARE 'GOD'.


Interesting notion, but foreign to scripture.


Edited by fivepointer (01/14/07 06:15 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6459261 - 01/14/07 06:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It sounds like you really know your stuff. That's rather impressive. But I feel obliged to ask, does this understanding and belief eliminate your suffering? In other words, do you ever experience any type of unfulfillment or unsatisfactoriness?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineGrok
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: dblaney]
    #6459409 - 01/14/07 07:18 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

fivepointer, have you ever considered that all of that stuff was written to scare people into obeying the authority who wrote it? Read this quote for instance

Romans 13:1
Submit to Government
1Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

This is a blatant scare tactic to make people obey authority and nothing more. Why are you associating with the mushroom eaters of the shroomery who largely regard authority as complete bullshit?

Also, I was just writing some stuff for my book, curious to your reponse to this as well.

An interesting detail of the Genesis myth is the 7 days necessary for the creation of Earth, and a God that became tired and required rest on the 7th day. For one thing, a day is entirely relative to an earth that is already formed and in orbit around the sun. By what measure could there be a day, if the Earth and sun were not complete? It just doesn’t make any sense. In chapter one, in addition to creating the Earth, “He made the stars also”. So Earth was the masterpiece, the rest of the infinite universe was but a trivial matter of creation? Also, why would God be tired? Isn’t he almighty and all powerful? It just doesn’t make any sense. Man cannot see a God whose reasoning and needs would be any different than his own, for man is seen as superior to All, hence “God” of the Bible seems so human-like. The God of the Bible has all sorts of needs for humans to live a certain way. Just as authority has needs for humans to see, think, act, and be a certain way. Oh yeah, almost forgot, authority is appointed by God, no wonder they have the same needs. Humanity seems unable to fathom the possibility of any other life being smarter or more advanced than we are. Sadly, we are the joke of the universe right now. We have all the tools to be fully enlightened multidimensional beings, and yet our actions are based on acquiring sex, money, status, etc. We are being watched, and laughed at; we are a truly pathetic bunch.

Surley you discredit evolution, how would you explain dinosaur fossils? Satan was busy at work with a backhoe while God was creating earth?


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OfflineGrok
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6459482 - 01/14/07 07:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I do not see any hypocritical God. You equate righteous judgement with meanness. The amazing fact that He would save anyone from this fallen mass, and not universally damn everyone, is truly astonishing.




Luckily, the masses are damning themselves! God doesn't even have to!

Righteous judgment is for authoritarian scumsuckers. There is no 'right' and 'wrong', they're entirley relative to a person's perspective or what they're trying to accomplish. To take power, government tells people what's right and wrong and judges and punishes them accordingly. It has nothing to do with God. It's all about power and control through fear.

The hypocrisy is from saying one thing, and doing another. God loves you, but God will send you to hell. Total hypocrisy. Authority is to serve and protect you, yet they'll throw you in jail for eating mushrooms that grow naturally and make you think a different way. We live in a hypocritical world. Parents tell their kids not to swear and then swear right in fron tof them. We forbid scenes of love from the public eye yet violence is so commonplace as to not even warrant attention. Religion says "Thou shall not kill" yet is responsible for countless massaceres. And you can't SEE hypocrisy? That's what happens when you have BLIND faith. You can't SEE.

I have seen 'God', I have been 'saved' by such, not from damnation, but from all the fear, hate, and misery I felt in my entire life, and from my own eagerness to end my life to escape this shit world hell bent on destruction.

God is infinite love ~ we are infinite love NOT BEING infinite love. Infinite love would never judge itself, damn itself, hate itself, or pass any of this onto another being. We are all loved unconditionally, I assure you this.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


Edited by cilosyb (01/14/07 07:49 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Grok]
    #6460362 - 01/14/07 11:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, it appears you have it all figured out. Of course I don't agree with your conclusions. I think we will have to leave it at that.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6460408 - 01/14/07 11:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

fivepointer, what do you think about this website?
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/

cilosyb Jesus realized all the same things you did, he hated the Roman Empire quite much and proposed that we all simply love.

So when Rome makes Christianity it's official religion I have to wonder..... can we trust ANYTHING Christianity has ever done since it stopped becoming a subversive revolution and started being a tool of oppression?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: leery11]
    #6460582 - 01/15/07 12:18 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
fivepointer, what do you think about this website?
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/





That site is contrary to scripture and brings a false gospel.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6460635 - 01/15/07 12:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

No fivepointer, you're repeatedly and unfailingly contradictory to the gospels and Jesus' own teachings.

I don't know what else to say. As it's expressed, you neither have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear."


Please take material from that site and dissect it directly. Show us what you've got, even if you've got nothing.


I've asked you to face this site before, and you were silent. So your silence will be the witness that nothing is what you have.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6460650 - 01/15/07 12:44 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I mean honestly I would like you to take at least a few of their points and show how it is contrary to scripture, because they are good points.

If the only thing relevant about the Bible is its current incarnation, and historical accuracy doesn't matter, then aren't we just in the matrix and God is reaching through synchrony all people and edited all sorts of things? Is that the kind of view, that only the present is valid so if it's been extremely altered to the point that it has nothing to do with what Jesus originally taught, that it's still right, and what Jesus actually taught is now wrong?

so here is an instance, there are passages where Jesus says that the lamp of the body is the eye, and that if the eye is single, the body is made out of light.

So, does this NOT mean the third eye? Because look, almost all Christians in America are heavily biased to view the Bible with a massive set of filters, so if you told them about the third eye without telling them that Bible passage, so many would say that experiencing the clear white light is evil, is magick, is witchraft, etc, and that "God doesn't want it"

so but

What does Jesus mean when he says that? What if the only Christians in America were mystical new-agers and they based their religion around his third eye phrases rather than around certain other viewpoints, and the dominant religion in America was Buddhism and all the Buddhists were lazy and dogmatic and were afraid to meditate?

this is what I see when I look at things and I'm not trying to attack you I just have yet to have my questions validly answered by people like you and then I see this website, and it answers my questions without invalidating the Bible at all [from my perspective]

and it is more realistic to think that God is love rather than conditional love to me.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (01/15/07 12:48 AM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6461492 - 01/15/07 10:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
No fivepointer, you're repeatedly and unfailingly contradictory to the gospels and Jesus' own teachings.

I don't know what else to say. As it's expressed, you neither have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear."


Please take material from that site and dissect it directly. Show us what you've got, even if you've got nothing.


I've asked you to face this site before, and you were silent. So your silence will be the witness that nothing is what you have.




The site mentioned proclaims two grand errors, universalism (all people will be saved) and denial of the doctrine of hell.

Universalism is not taught at all in scripture. A most extreme form of twisting must be used to arrive at such a doctrine.
Every false doctrine will take some verses and ignore others.

The verses below are the proof texts used to create the doctrine:
1Ti 2:-7 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

The "all men" in this section refers to all types of men, Jews, Gentiles, rich, poor, powerful, ect.. Out of all types of men God is saving, the gospel is no longer only for the Jews.


John 10:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The "all" are all those drawn by the Father (John 6:44, 65) to Christ, the elect.


Romans 5:18-9 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

These verses are describing the Federal headship of both Adam and Christ. Both represented a people. Christ represented His elect, given to Him be the Father from before the foundation of the world. By His obedience His people are made righteous. Just as Adam's sin was imputed to the entire race, Christ righteousness is imputed to His elect. The "all" represents all who are represented.


Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

These verses are describing how God blinded the Jews to the gospel to make the gospel go forth to the Gentiles. The "all" are those who are blinded resulting in the gospel spreading to all peoples.


1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"Saviour of all men" does not mean every person on earth will be saved. Again a reference to the scope of salvation being spread to all peoples of the earth. All believers from all peoples, not just Jews, are to be saved.


Isaiah 45:22-5 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

"every knee shall bow" - Christ is King and all shall acknowledge this fact, including saints and angels in heaven, those on the earth, the unsaved devils and damned persons under the earth, when judgment day arrives.

The proof texts prove nothing.

Consider the verses below that clearly do not teach a universal salvation:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Matt 7:21-3 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many many verse clearly declare that the unconverted will be subject to the second death, it is overwhelming. I could paste a pile of verses on this.

The site wrongly teaches about hell.
Hell is an eternal place of conscious torment.
The Bible warns of the eternity and permanence of hell.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev. 14:11: The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Luke 16, describes a horrific picture of hell:

22 ... the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father?s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-48, (also Matt 18:8)

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mat 18:9
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus makes the statement that hell is so horrible that a person should cut off their own hand or foot or pluck out their own eye if it would keep them out of hell. This is how serious it is, and how horrible it is.


Wailing and gnashing of teeth are described in many verses:
Mt 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Lu 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


The devils cried out to Jesus, even they know they will be tormented in due time.

Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6461771 - 01/15/07 12:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Just as Adam's sin was imputed to the entire race, Christ righteousness is imputed to His elect. The "all" represents all who are represented.




Can we elect a new Christ? This Jesus fellow sounds too picky and beaurocratic.

:grin:

Also, fivepointer, did you respond to my earlier question? I didn't notice any reply.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: dblaney]
    #6461821 - 01/15/07 01:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
It sounds like you really know your stuff. That's rather impressive. But I feel obliged to ask, does this understanding and belief eliminate your suffering? In other words, do you ever experience any type of unfulfillment or unsatisfactoriness?




I feel great joy at the same time great sorrow. Joy at knowing the mystery of the gospel and knowing I have been changed from what I was. Sorrow for the ungodliness I see constantly in the world, and sorrow for my own sins. But joy returns when I know God loves me without condition and all things work together for good, even though I may not know the deeper causes at the present moment.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6461834 - 01/15/07 01:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

My friend, if you are able to manifest God's unconditional love in this world (and I don't doubt that you'll be able to), you would have my deepest respect.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBrugman
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6466631 - 01/16/07 06:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The fall was not a glitch in the system, it is an integral part of God's ordination of all events. No fall = no redemption = no display of righteousness = no display of mercy and love. The end of all these things is the display of His glory.




A being that needs his "glory" to be displayed as such seems somewhat egotistical? Maybe that's the wrong word, but ... doesn't seem too perfect.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Brugman]
    #6467054 - 01/16/07 08:24 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

why on earth would God CHOOSE to damn people for eternity?

this is not a choice a loving parent would make of his children, given that his message and his teaching styles were so vague as to leave most of them in ruins.

does God have no choice?

what if I remember what it was like to be in the bardo and become born as this person? what if I remember a past life?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (01/16/07 08:25 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6468384 - 01/17/07 03:13 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

fivepointer, you're full of nonsense. You've posted some verses, at least one of which does not actually say what you've claimed it to say, and others which I've already addressed for you a long time ago.

Also, you quote versus which make mention of hell. Hell is not a word that was ever used in the scriptures. Do you know what words are being replaced by those inferior translations? Maybe you should look them up. That site will help you with that.

It's said in the bible that "all will be reconciled to [God]."
That contradicts you. It also points to God being "all in all." Again, fivepointer, you're contradicting what's actually in the bible.

I'll just copy and paste my old response, as you're just going over old ground that you're as messed up now over as you were before. As has been thoroughly documented, you don't have any understanding of the scriptures in the bible, and I wish you'd seek some.


Edited by Disco Cat (01/17/07 03:27 AM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6468385 - 01/17/07 03:13 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
I don't have time to explain all those versus right now, but don't worry, I will in time. Maybe I'll do one a day, maybe not. I'll just address a bit for now.

First of all, I'm not calling Jesus a liar, I'm saying that you don't understand the things Jesus said. Jesus said to test his words to see if they are true, so we'll do just that.

EXAMPLE 1:
Quote:

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale?s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



He was buried in a tomb for 3 day, what else do you think "in the heart of the earth" means? It's akin to when Jesus said "Elijah was to come before Jesus and restore all things" - but Elijah was really John the baptist, "if you can accept it."

"nailed to a tree" - means, the cross
"Elijah must come first" - means, John the baptist
"three days in the heart of the earth" - means, three days in a tomb

Have you learnt the type of mistake you're making?

EXAMPLE 2:
Quote:

Luke 16, describes a horrific picture of hell:

22 ... the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father?s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.




So you emphasize "place of torment" as your proof that this verse is talking about everlasting hell? You'll need to explain that. Now to use this parable*(see bottom of post) as evidence for an afterlife of hell, this needs to be a literal parable (which is an oxymoron), so that means

1. heaven is literally in Abraham's bosom. What is Abraham in then? How big is Abraham's bosom? Is there tv in his bosom?

2. we can see hell from heaven, and we can talk to people in this hell from heaven, yet there is a great gulf fixed there - yet the rich man didn't know this before he asked Abraham to send him relief. (BTW, Can people in Abraham's bosom see hell, or is it just Abraham, who is the only one outside of his own bosom?)

3. the rich man and Lazarus are real characters. If that's so, then why is the rich man's name "the rich man?"

4. "Even the dogs came and licked his sores." That line is part of the same parable, but wasn't included in your selection. Why would this man have allowed the dogs to lick his sores, and why would it be included as relevant to Jesus' message? Maybe because Jesus was trying to make him sound as pitiful as possible to make a great contract between the characters.

5. "The rich man" and Lazarus must have been good pals or something, or why else would "the rich man" specifically ask for Lazarus to dip his finger into water and cool his tongue? Why would "the rich man" have thought that such a thing could ease his suffering anyways in a "lake of unending fire," wouldn't the water have evaporated before it had gotten to him anyway?


things to note: The actual word written is Hades, not hell. Hades is a Greek mythology term, used to describe both the location of the dead, and the god of the dead. Why would Jesus use another religion's version of the afterlife? Was he maybe just trying to get a point across? hrmmm...


Now, here is what I claim the parable to be saying, which is what it represents what taken as a parable...

The people in Abraham's bosom represent those who live life according to Abraham's example - sons of Abraham. As Abraham lived well and prospered so do those who live his example, being spiritually full. The rich man did not live unselfishly, and so was separate from spiritual peace, and what really mattered. That part about how he could not send Lazarus to warn his brothers about the dangers of this way of living illustrates that you cannot be forced into living a right life, but that you must discipline yourself to live that life, and endure the results that your choices bring you.



Interesting Hell fact for the day: King David writes "Oh Lord, You brough me up from Sheol (Sheol is one of the words Hell replaces in contemporary bibles) Psalm 30:3"
David writes this while still alive, not having yet died, not even once!! How is this possible?!?!! What could it mean?


So now make your decision, fivepointer. Are you going to accept a teaching of fear, or a teaching of freedom?


"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


from *: "he spoke to them in parables, he did not say anything to them without using a parable"
Parable means a short story acting as a metaphor to express a truth




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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/16/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6468393 - 01/17/07 03:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Also, I'll make note that Solomon was a very godly prophet for God at the same time while Saul was a complete disobeyer of God, which resulted in his death.

Solomon had died before Saul, and before Saul died himself, he used a seer or whatever lady in order to contact Solomon's spirit.

Solomon was brough up and conversed with Saul, and he got angry with him for continuing to disobey God, and warned him that he would soon be killed, with his last words being "tomorrow you will be with me."

Make note that Saul was an incredible ungodly character who basically spat in God's face repeatedly.
Yet Solomon, a highly godly person says to him that after his impending death: "you will be with me."




Perhaps there should be a sticky in this forum warning people to ignore fivepointer's nonsense. I wouldn't suggest that, but it's the same thing over and over again, and if nobody's around to iron out the creases then people just go on being deceived about this particular faith because of him.


Edited by Disco Cat (01/17/07 06:36 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6470094 - 01/17/07 06:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well I guess we will just have to agree that we do not agree and leave it at that.


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Offlineck10n3
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Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: Nalim]
    #6471854 - 01/18/07 01:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nast said:
Perfect is pretty much only a construct of our worldly psyche..

But if I was to believe in the word perfect this would be my opinion:
If there is such a thing as a God and he is perfect, and creates imperfect beings then is not he himself flawed?

If one person is perfect and there is a God, isn't it so that god also must be perfect to create this being? And if god is perfect he only creates perfect beings and then all is perfect.

So all is perfect or all is flawed.




Sorry, but that is just taking a preconceived notion that God created us. What if my understanding of god is an energy or force?


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK


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Offlineck10n3
Imagine
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 348
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Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: i think i just had a breakthrough....EVERYONE, or GOD IS PERFECT [Re: fivepointer]
    #6471977 - 01/18/07 02:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Well I guess we will just have to agree that we do not agree and leave it at that.




My opinions:

Firstly, the Bible is a gathering of stories over centuries. Ever played popcorn? Enough said.

It is also odd how Greek, Assyrian and Egyptian mythology parallels that of the Bible, when some of the myths from ancient times were around a century earlier than any of Biblical texts.

Why are you taking this book as fact? Have you ever considered the world history behind the creation of the Bible, and other ancient religions?

---

Jesus was an amazing guy. He told the truth, and his words were twisted. From what I can see all of the things he said were righteous. Putting the whole "God" aspect in ruins his story. I see Jesus as another Buddha, one who knows. His descriptions of "God" were probably misinterpreted as some actual being. Sure god is singular, it is one thing that is everything. God is pure loving being in its most inexplicable form. I do not believe it is the giant Santa Zeus in the sky.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK


Edited by ck10n3 (01/18/07 02:11 AM)


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