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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6481578 - 01/21/07 01:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

No my beliefs are based on the idea that soup kitchens and people living in tinshacks are not something we should aspire to.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6481874 - 01/21/07 08:31 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

But government cheese is, I suppose.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6481940 - 01/21/07 09:24 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

If you aspire to soup kitchens and tin shacks that's fine.

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6481984 - 01/21/07 09:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you aspire to soup kitchens and tin shacks that's fine.



But what happens when the government welfare systems fail their people?

Like when all those people in France believed that their socialist healthcare system would always be there for them. Then 15,000 of them died because it got a little too hot, and almost all of the doctors were on vacation at the same time in 2003.

Is this what we should aspire to? A world where thousands die needlessly because the government's beuracracy can't even keep track of how many people are on vacation at a given time?

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6482086 - 01/21/07 10:50 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
No my beliefs are based on the idea that soup kitchens and people living in tinshacks are not something we should aspire to.




But of course not. We should all aspire to have our money taken away so welfare recipients can live the good life of trailer parks and public housing. :smirk:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6484464 - 01/22/07 01:54 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

A bus might plow into you tomorrow and you end up one of those welfare recipients. If you fancy trying to make it in your wheelchair to the soup kitchen 50 miles away every day for your bowl of turnip soup then ok, but I think most people would prefer being able to cook something at home :laugh:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6486297 - 01/22/07 03:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
A bus might plow into you tomorrow and you end up one of those welfare recipients. If you fancy trying to make it in your wheelchair to the soup kitchen 50 miles away every day for your bowl of turnip soup then ok, but I think most people would prefer being able to cook something at home :laugh:


:rofl2:


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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6490321 - 01/23/07 06:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you fancy trying to make it in your wheelchair to the soup kitchen 50 miles away every day for your bowl of turnip soup then ok, but I think most people would prefer being able to cook something at home



Like how I would prefer to pay money for a private doctor rather than have the universal healthcare system kill me during a heatwave?

Oh yeah, also, interesting note...the current socialist regimes won't bring me food from 50 miles away either...

But private organization Meals on Wheels will.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6491706 - 01/24/07 05:09 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Like when all those people in France believed that their socialist healthcare system would always be there for them. Then 15,000 of them died because it got a little too hot, and almost all of the doctors were on vacation at the same time in 2003.

Is this what we should aspire to? A world where thousands die needlessly because the government's beuracracy can't even keep track of how many people are on vacation at a given time?




The fact that a majority of doctors were on holiday is due to the fact that the majority of French people holiday during August. Some of the bodies of the elderly people who died were not claimed for several weeks for the same reason. So the disaster highlighted a flaw in staffing levels in their health care system but it cannot be used as an example of why welfare is a bad idea, not even close.


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6491784 - 01/24/07 06:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you fancy trying to make it in your wheelchair to the soup kitchen 50 miles away every day for your bowl of turnip soup then ok, but I think most people would prefer being able to cook something at home



Like how I would prefer to pay money for a private doctor rather than have the universal healthcare system kill me during a heatwave?

Oh yeah, also, interesting note...the current socialist regimes won't bring me food from 50 miles away either...

But private organization Meals on Wheels will.




But socialists (like George Bush?) will send you a cheque so you can afford to eat at home rather than pushing yourself 50 miles through the snow to reach the nearest soup kitchen.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6492087 - 01/24/07 10:06 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
The fact that a majority of doctors were on holiday is due to the fact that the majority of French people holiday during August. Some of the bodies of the elderly people who died were not claimed for several weeks for the same reason. So the disaster highlighted a flaw in staffing levels in their health care system but it cannot be used as an example of why welfare is a bad idea, not even close.



Relevant staffing levels at government-run hospitals are, by definition, determined by the government.

The government thought that the hospitals could be run with WAAAAY too few doctors, and they were wrong. Thousands died. What guarantee do we have that similar mistakes will not be made in the future? Perhaps staffing levels will be fine, by vaccine or blood stocks won't be. Who knows?

The difference between a private charity making a mistake and the government making a mistake is that no one was forced to pay for the private charity's mistake. If they felt the private charity wasn't doing enough they could always give to another charity. You don't have this luxury when the government takes from you forcibly.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
! [Re: Economist]
    #6494726 - 01/25/07 01:21 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So they made a mistake! I take it you are still a student? When you join the real world you will realise that mistakes happen. Its how you deal with them that is really important and Im sure you will find the French will not make the same mistake again.

Its fairly obvious that you could find countless cases of low income families who have had members of their families saved by life saving operations which may have crippled them financially for years if all health care was privatised.


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Always Smi2le

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Offlinepokermush
Waterboardingmyself toprotect America!
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 475
Loc: Utah
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Re: ! [Re: GazzBut]
    #6495587 - 01/25/07 11:31 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I take it you are still a student? When you join the real world...




:rofl:  Maybe when you join the real world you won't have inbred royalty. And you'll realize that almost everything you have is due to the limited amount of capitalism your country still allows, not due to the socialism that has infected it.

My sister-in-law and her family are welfare leeches from England. Her mother has been on the dole her entire life, never worked a day. They expect everything to be handed to them. They constantly complain about how much more money they got in England, blah blah blah, and are always looking for ways to get a few dollars without working.

They are the most selfish, lazy, unappreciative people I have ever known. Yeah, your welfare state produced some real winners.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: ! [Re: pokermush]
    #6495955 - 01/25/07 01:36 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Too moronic to bother with a proper reply.


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Always Smi2le

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: ! [Re: GazzBut]
    #6497126 - 01/25/07 07:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Too spot on for a riposte, eh?


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: ! [Re: pokermush]
    #6498809 - 01/26/07 11:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

My sister-in-law and her family are welfare leeches from England. Her mother has been on the dole her entire life, never worked a day.

Sounds very unlikely. What form of welfare were they receiving in England?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: ! [Re: GazzBut]
    #6499212 - 01/26/07 01:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So they made a mistake! I take it you are still a student? When you join the real world you will realise that mistakes happen. Its how you deal with them that is really important and Im sure you will find the French will not make the same mistake again.



I'm curious about which of us is actually living in the real world when you don't seem to want to attach consequences to poorly made decisions.

The French have a universal healthcare system. This system made a very serious mistake and thousands died. In my book, this means that alternatives should be made available to the system for those who don't wish to pay into a future mistake.

Unfortunately, government-forced welfare payments don't afford citizens this flexibility. If you do not pay into the system, you go to jail. If the system makes a mistake, well, that's okay because they keep getting your money anyway. You just have to trust that people in mostly non-elected positions won't make that mistake again.

In a system of private charity there are very real consequences for such a mistake. Once a charity is shown to be detrimental or unscrupulous, people will rarely donate to them again. Their funding is cut off, and more efficient charities recieve it instead.

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