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OfflineBasilides
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: wilshire]
    #6475680 - 01/19/07 07:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The reality of the situation goes well beyond health care. Health care is merely the central partisan war horse of taxation politics.

Modern societies need order and established rule of law, which only a government, complete with a military, civil police force and judicial system can provide. This costs money, which the populace will HAVE to distribute if they want to have a country that isn't ruled by factions and militias.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a socialist and I believe government should only tax what is absolutely needed - and encourage the charity drive in the country. I'm simply a realist. The era of total, absolutist economic privatization is in my opinion outdated. It was integral to the age of colonial rule. In the 21st century, taxation is required for a society to function.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Basilides]
    #6475783 - 01/19/07 08:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The era of total, absolutist economic privatization is in my opinion outdated.




Give that man a cigar! :smile:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6475796 - 01/19/07 08:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Utter Sophistry. Im sure you can do better than that.

calling it that doesn't make it so. can you explain why?

If you dont like paying taxes you can leave a country. If you decide to work/live in a certain country that decision entails you will abide by the rules. i.e You will pay taxes. So thats the old "Forcible Seizure" arguement in the bin.

you can justify any public policy on those grounds.

The way our economies currently work there will always be an underclass who cannot make an average living.

why? how is that so?


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6475820 - 01/19/07 09:05 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It's more to do with trying to connect libertarians with the reality of their fantastic theories. It's too easy to read books about "private charity" and divorce yourself from the agony and suffering such "policies" would result in.



"Fantasy" and "theories" eh?

Look through this thread. I cannot find any evidence that has been provided showing that private charity would result in less aid for the poor than public welfare. Infact, I seem to be the only one who has cited evidence, that being the unemployment and starvation rates during the Great Depression, and that proved that private charity does infact work.

Please provide some evidence, otherwise it's a little hard to tell who's really living in a fantasy world.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6475851 - 01/19/07 09:19 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Look through this thread. I cannot find any evidence that has been provided showing that private charity would result in less aid for the poor than public welfare. Infact, I seem to be the only one who has cited evidence, that being the unemployment and starvation rates during the Great Depression, and that proved that private charity does infact work.


As has been pointed many times in the thread before, if all you aspire to is people living in tin-shacks eating a bowl of soup a day at soup kitchens then private charity may "work".

Can you find examples of unemployed people from the great depression singing the praises of the conditions they experienced then? If everyone had thought private charity worked then why was the welfare system introduced shortly afterwards?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6475932 - 01/19/07 09:52 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Can you find examples of unemployed people from the great depression singing the praises of the conditions they experienced then? If everyone had thought private charity worked then why was the welfare system introduced shortly afterwards?



Alex, I am not doing research for you.

Very clearly you cannot find any evidence that private charity will inevitably face a shortfall, otherwise you would have posted it by now.

I am thus forced to conclude that your ideas on this matter are no less "fantasies" and "theories" than those of any Libertarian.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: wilshire]
    #6475949 - 01/19/07 09:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


calling it that doesn't make it so. can you explain why?




No I havent got the time.

Quote:

you can justify any public policy on those grounds.




True. But if the option to leave if you dont like something exists then my arguement still stands.

Quote:

why? how is that so?




My guess is that because so much of the collective wealth is distributed through such a small minority you will always end up with the opposite condition at the other end of the scale.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6476070 - 01/19/07 10:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


1) If you dont like paying taxes you can leave a country. If you decide to work/live in a certain country that decision entails you will abide by the rules. i.e You will pay taxes. So thats the old "Forcible Seizure" arguement in the bin. I will say that I definitely 100% do not agree with my countries level of taxation or the way my tax pounds are spent but as I have the option to leave the country I do not feel they are being forcibly seized.




You don't like the drug policy in your country? Tough luck. I guess you just have to move somewhere else. :shrug:

Does that principle apply to this scenario as well?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6476600 - 01/19/07 01:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

[quote
Very clearly you cannot find any evidence that private charity will inevitably face a shortfall, otherwise you would have posted it by now.

I am thus forced to conclude that your ideas on this matter are no less "fantasies" and "theories" than those of any Libertarian.




I'm not sure what you're talking about. The evidence consists of the Great Depression and the fact that the welfare system was introduced shortly afterwards. Why would such a system be introduced if everyone was happy with private charity?

Are you seriously saying conditions during the Great Depression were adequate for the unemployed and that they were conditions we should aspire to today?

If you can find a single example of private charity providing anything but tinshacks and soup kitchens then ok but until then we can only go on what actually happened.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6476606 - 01/19/07 01:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I guess you just have to move somewhere else.

And be a victim of American foreign policy? :laugh:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6477218 - 01/19/07 04:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I guess you just have to move somewhere else.

And be a victim of American foreign policy? :laugh:




If you're lucky you can choose to be a beneficiary.  I sincerely doubt that you would pass the test, though.  Oh well, tough shit for you, ever relegated to victim status.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6477274 - 01/19/07 04:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

So let's ask those who support government seizure of money from the general populace to give to those who lack sufficient money




Why dont you ever complain about the seizure of money to fund illegal, profiteering wars?




Blah blah blah, bullshit. Now that that's done let's move on to the other junk
Quote:



Anyway, lets explain this one more time:



Oh, please do my guru




1) If you dont like paying taxes you can leave a country. If you decide to work/live in a certain country that decision entails you will abide by the rules. i.e You will pay taxes. So thats the old "Forcible Seizure" arguement in the bin. I will say that I definitely 100% do not agree with my countries level of taxation or the way my tax pounds are spent but as I have the option to leave the country I do not feel they are being forcibly seized.




"America, love it or leave it." Sometimes it's best to let you speak because you will invariably step on your own dick
Quote:



2)The way our economies currently work there will always be an underclass who cannot make an average living. i.e they are below the breadline. This is a function of our economy not a result of laziness on the part of the people who need welfare. Of course there are lazy, welching bastards who claim when they shouldn't but to then extrapolate that this means all people claiming wefare are lazy, welching bastards is just an example of pretty shoddy thinking.




Depending on how you select your average, mean, median or mode, yes there will always be those who fail to make the "average living". We can't all be above average, no matter how many gold stars for wiping you got in Kindergarten. This is just such a ridiculous example of the whole "Everyone is a star" notion of PC bullshit. Face it. Many, many of you just suck and will be failures and that is that. Hopefully you won't be too much of a burden on the rest of us and will pretty much be able to feed, clothe and house yourself. The Devo song "Mongoloid" might be appropriately illustrative of the hope that even the less gifted can have.
Quote:



3) So if the people who need welfare are a necessary result of the economic system which the rest of us use to further our own lifestyles surely we have no choice but to contribute towards their welfare?




If you create welfare recipients, you will have welfare recipients. Mostly, they are created by babies.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6478617 - 01/19/07 10:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Taxes are needed for society to function. Without taxation, you have anarchy.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6479127 - 01/20/07 03:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for joinig the debate Zappa. Having a bad day/life or something?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6479130 - 01/20/07 03:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


You don't like the drug policy in your country? Tough luck. I guess you just have to move somewhere else.

Does that principle apply to this scenario as well?
D4D0C8




Yes. Next question.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6479295 - 01/20/07 08:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Thanks for joinig the debate Zappa. Having a bad day/life or something?




Slapping you around is one of my great joys


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6479306 - 01/20/07 08:19 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

True. But if the option to leave if you dont like something exists then my arguement still stands.

you seem to be implying that the state may do whatever it wants (as long as it is democratically justified[?]). aside from the right to flee your homeland and become a refugee/exile, are there any inalienable rights that should be preserved no matter what prevailing opinion is?


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6479469 - 01/20/07 10:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. The evidence consists of the Great Depression and the fact that the welfare system was introduced shortly afterwards. Why would such a system be introduced if everyone was happy with private charity?



So, your argument is, because the government took certain action following an event, then that action must have been justified?

But I thought you were against the Iraq war? And how about Reaganomics following stagflation? Are you now saying that was justified too? Both fit your model of government taking specific action following an event.

Personally, I believe that FDR was a "Progressivist" who was looking for an excuse to institute policies dating back to to his 1911 New York Senate and 1920 VP Campaigns. In both cases he supported a Wilson-esque Progressive agenda but experienced heavy opposition (first from Tamany Hall, then from President Harding who defeated FDR's ticket).

I believe even better evidence of this comes from FDR's 1928 gubernatorial campaign in New York where he proposed instituting social programs a year before the stock market even crashed! Unemployment was at an all time low and the economy was booming in 1928, yet Roosevelt was saying New York State needed welfare.

FDR had an agenda and was looking for any excuse to forward it.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you can find a single example of private charity providing anything but tinshacks and soup kitchens then ok but until then we can only go on what actually happened.



That's what I've been trying to go on about. You keep insisting that people will be "starving on the street" in the abscence of welfare, but by your own admission, during a period of time without welfare people were able to get by on "soup kitchens" and "tinshacks" that people provided for them.

You have no proof of widespread starvation or death. You can argue that soup kitchens "aren't enough" but they very clearly were enough to prevent your initial claim of "starving on the street".

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6479741 - 01/20/07 12:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So, your argument is, because the government took certain action following an event, then that action must have been justified?


Not always, but sometimes.

That's what I've been trying to go on about. You keep insisting that people will be "starving on the street" in the abscence of welfare, but by your own admission, during a period of time without welfare people were able to get by on "soup kitchens" and "tinshacks" that people provided for them.


But remember welfare was introduced shortly after the Great Depression. Whether you would have been able to stave off starvation with soup kitchens in the long term is another question.

In addition the Great Depression was a national emergency and a unique set of circumstances. Whether you'd see people creating soup kitchens for the unemployed today is another question.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6479858 - 01/20/07 01:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So your beliefs are based on no less speculation than any libertarian's?

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