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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6459221 - 01/14/07 04:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I guess I'll count myself among the few capitalism fans who is relatively pleased with the tax situation in America. While I think economic stratification is culprit #1 for the success of our great country, it does no good to have people starve to death because they've fallen on hard times.

It's true that, in the past, non-government charities have greatly assisted those in need. However, in Western culture, these charities almost always take orders from our precious lord and savior. I'm sure I might be in the minority here too, but I'd rather have an occasionally honest government take my money than a compulsory dishonest clergy.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6461071 - 01/15/07 02:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

At what point did I say we should aspire to this? This is an obvious straw man. I merely pointed out that private charity can, and did, take care of the millions of Americans in need during the Great Depression.

No it didn't. It provided soup kitchens that kept people barely alive. As I said, if people living in tin shacks eating a bowl of soup a day is all you aspire to then perhaps private charity would "work".

What are you talking about? You're the one always on here complaining about how Bush & Co. are robbing everyone blind. Which is it: either the Federal Government isn't corrupt, OR Bush & Co. are hopelessly corrupt. Making both claims is hyprocritical.


Nonsense. Bush has never run off to South America with the welfare budget. He can't. He can spend tax money invading Iraq, he can cut welfare to the bone, but he can't run off to South America with it. Private individuals can.

Thus they would still give their money to help the poor, even if they viewed some charities as corrupt

Nonsense. You only give money if you know it's going to go to the poor. No-one in their right mind is going to give any money to boost executive salaries or so the director can run off with all the money.

Which would you give to: A charity that could feed 10 people for $10 or one that could only feed 5 people for $10?

The only charity I'd give to is a non-profit one. I'm not giving my money to boost rich executives salaries.

Clearly the charity that did the most good would recieve the most donations, hence competition.


Define "does the most good". How do you judge this? Do you believe statistics some corporate manager cooks up to show he's "doing the most good"?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6461081 - 01/15/07 02:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Why wouldn't it?




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6461085 - 01/15/07 02:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Read the thread again. Several obvious reasons have been listed.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6461093 - 01/15/07 03:04 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

None that back your own claims. Why wouldn't it work? If there was a majority of individuals who wanted to help the poor, as you have claimed, then they would no doubt either give to non-profit charities who do, or personally distribute charity on their own.

One would have to assume that, if private charity is not able to benefit the poor enough to ensure that there was no real poverty, then either not enough people are interested or that they do not donate enough funds.

If one were truly interested in assisting others, then they would do so.

Now, why doesn't private charity solve the poverty opportunity?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6461110 - 01/15/07 03:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

How many private charity owners would need to run off with the money before people stopped giving to private charity?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6461124 - 01/15/07 03:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well, like I asked you earlier, it sounds like you are promoting limited government regulation of private charity, which would be more effective than welfare as a solution to the problem, if the majority of individuals are interested in donating to charity, as you have claimed.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6461186 - 01/15/07 04:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Well, like I asked you earlier, it sounds like you are promoting limited government regulation of private charity




Not sure where you got that from. I'm not promoting that at all.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6461203 - 01/15/07 04:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

If you were a reasonable individual, you would be. You state that the reason private charity is ineffective at addressing poverty is not because the majority isn't interested in helping the poor, but that they don't because the private charity industry is corrupt.

If this is so, then clearly it would be more appropriate for the government to regulate the private charity industry so that it could not be corrupt, as this would be more cost-effective than creating a new government bureaucracy.

Would that not be more effective than welfare? If not, then why?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6461627 - 01/15/07 09:36 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
How many private charity owners would need to run off with the money before people stopped giving to private charity?




When has this happened?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6462760 - 01/15/07 03:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why wouldn't it?




Currently we have a mixture of private charity and state welfare yet people still struggle to afford medical care etc etc. How would this situation improve by removing state welfare and relying solely on private charity?

If the government was not corrupt and poorly run then we probably would have no need for private charity and we could pay less taxes and provide a far better welfare system.

I also find it funny that some people on this board are so opposed to funds being seized to help people but have no problem with funds being seized to fund the killing of innocent people in far off lands.


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6462779 - 01/15/07 03:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think most people are to lazy getting personaly involved in charity to make it an viable option.

Considering that the US is the largest economy it's foreign aid is very low compared to many other countries. Even including private charity.

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6462814 - 01/15/07 04:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Currently we have a mixture of private charity and state welfare yet people still struggle to afford medical care etc etc. How would this situation improve by removing state welfare and relying solely on private charity?

yeah i've been a little confused by that as well. i doubt that the boost the private sector would get from reduced taxes would be enough to leave those who are now receiving welfare benefits any better off than they are now.

i'm also a little baffled as to why the libertarian types on the board even feel the need to defend the idea in the first place. voluntary charity is preferable to forced redistribution of wealth because it doesn't rely on government coercion, not because it can provide better.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: wilshire]
    #6463120 - 01/15/07 05:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So you would syupport the abolition of the welfate state even though you would expect this to have an adverse affect on a large number of people?


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Always Smi2le

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: GazzBut]
    #6463250 - 01/15/07 05:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So you would syupport the abolition of the welfate state even though you would expect this to have an adverse affect on a large number of people?

yes, i would. but i am more opposed to taxation as it is now used than on the welfare programs it's used on. i see no problem with a sort of land value tax, or any other tax that is essentially levied on the use of free (and communally 'owned') gifts of nature. after paying for essential government services, some of the surplus could be used to help support those who can't support themselves. the problem is the tax, not the welfare program. we spend a lot more money on far less worthy programs, but welfare always gets a bad rap because it is (falsely) seen as benefiting only those who get the checks.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6463314 - 01/15/07 06:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
How many private charity owners would need to run off with the money before people stopped giving to private charity?




When has this happened?




"There's a growing sense of outrage this weekend in the Bronx and it's not just about the performance of the post- season Yankees. Instead, the anger and disbelief relates to the sorry outcome of the Gloria Wise Boys & Girls scandal.

Between the now- disgraced inner city nonprofit and the liberal radio network that took $875,000 of its taxpayer- funded money, why won't anybody face jail time?

How could simply repaying some of the loot, in addition to a small fine, possibly be enough for a swindle that hurt so many inner- city children and elderly people?"

http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2006/10/gloria-wise-new-york-post-bronx.html

It happens. Probably not as often as a bureaucrat or politician, but it does happen


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6464119 - 01/15/07 09:36 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Between the now- disgraced inner city nonprofit and the liberal radio network that took $875,000 of its taxpayer- funded money, why won't anybody face jail time?




So was this money provided to this org. by the gov't or private donors? That sentence is really confusing.

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: wilshire]
    #6464773 - 01/16/07 03:26 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
So you would syupport the abolition of the welfate state even though you would expect this to have an adverse affect on a large number of people?

yes, i would.




And how "adverse" would you be willing to see conditions get for them? Starving in the streets?  :rolleyes:

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6464888 - 01/16/07 05:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

And how "adverse" would you be willing to see conditions get for them? Starving in the streets?

yes, and the fact that i am opposed to forcing some people to provide for other people means i don't care about them? the fact that you are not means that you do?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: wilshire]
    #6464901 - 01/16/07 05:19 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Don't forget about my reply, Alex213. If you were wrong on a specific point or two you can feel free to admit it. :tongue:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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