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OfflineSyle
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Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6429133 - 01/05/07 07:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.




You have a very strange definition of slavery. Read some history for a better definition of "slavery". Volunteering to be in the military is not slavery. The people who go in the military do it of their own free will. There is no coercion involved.

How can you claim that being a volunteer is the same as slavery???


Weather or not you believe it is right for a person to volunteer for the military is irrelevant. It is a fact that people can volunteer for service in the military. They can even sign up for a 2 year tour rather than a 4 year tour. This guy knew this when he joined the military.


Quote:

I know you think you own that man until you "let go of his balls", I don't think you do. I think he owns himself. I'm sorry you can't understand my point of view.




I never said that "I" owned anyone.

I'm sorry that you cant understand simple contract laws.


Quote:

Making the statement that my point of view is 'ignorant' is a very good representation of the sort of person you are, and the sort of person that considers a man's life a piece of property.




Your point of view that a volunteer is the same as slavery is .....I G N O R A N T

Pick up a dictionary and do some reading before you start making up your own definitions for commonly used words.

Quote:

It is painfully clear that I have a well formulated opinion, regardless of how it agrees with yours. Your insulting nature reveals the vulnerability of your argument in any context other than force.




Your are entitled to you opinion. It is far from well informed though. You cant even grasp some simple definitions such as volunteer and slavery

Quote:

PS: I'm afraid to hear your definition of a volunteer... I imagine it would have some interesting parallels with Bush's definition of torture...




:whatever:

Dude you are grasping at straws my friend. How can you make the claim now that a volunteer is the same as torture?

You are living in a fantasy world and it will come crashing down around you one day.

Quote:

And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.




Man he volunteered to serve in this organization.

Quote:

He owns his own life... thus he may relinquish ownership of it?
Your argument fails immediately.




If you own a car don't you have the right to relinquish ownership of it......even if it is for a weekend?


Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
According to your beliefs you may have cotton fields full of men who may never, ever leave... simply because they once wrote their name on a paper...

This is a frightening idea to me...




Redstorm never said that. This is another of your "strawman contracts" that you so love to make up. Joining the military is not a lifetime deal, you only sign up for 2 or 4 years......not forever.
:rolleyes:








Quote:

Granny said:
not performing you work duties on a contract *IS* theft.  You *ARE* stealing money from the institution, corporate or government, that you contracted with to do X labor or job for X money.  He *WAS* getting paid, and he did BREACH his contract.

I contract in the IT industry for a living, its the same damn shit.  Just because its the 'army' doesn't make it legally or morally any different.  If you don't want the job, you don't take the contract.




:congrats:


Some people are confusing supporting the government and breach of contract

This guy signed a 4 year contract and he should do his time weather it is in the Job Core or the US military.




great replies.

mayhaps this thread needs to be moved to the Politics forum?


--------------------
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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6430491 - 01/06/07 09:15 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.




You have a very strange definition of slavery. Read some history for a better definition of "slavery". Volunteering to be in the military is not slavery. The people who go in the military do it of their own free will. There is no coercion involved.

How can you claim that being a volunteer is the same as slavery???





You seem to need to put words in my mouth to even try and win this argument...

Time is the difference.
A volunteer may change his mind, a slave may not.

If your brain cannot grasp this concept, we have nothing more to discuss.

I know how the system is set up. I know I have new ideas. I know you are afraid of them.

Calling me ignorant is as stupid as you can be. You cut your reality out of hate and arrogance. Your country is becoming hell because of your self-righteousness. You will only be able to turn away so many helping hands before you are trapped in isolation with only your own murderous ideas.

I have nothing more to say to you, your pathetically fearful, disrespectful attitude clearly blocks your mind from any intellectual progress I could otherwise bring you.

You self indulgence will be your self destruction, I will have no part in it.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6430870 - 01/06/07 11:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
You seem to need to put words in my mouth to even try and win this argument...

Time is the difference.
A volunteer may change his mind, a slave may not.




No one has put any words in your mouth other than the ones you already put there. If a person volunteers to join the military he understands the repercussions of defaulting on that agreement. If you try to cut out early then you must suffer the consequences of your actions.

Plain and simple

Quote:

If your brain cannot grasp this concept, we have nothing more to discuss.




If your brain can't grasp the difference between a volunteer, a slave and a torturer, then we have nothing more to discuss.

Quote:

I know how the system is set up.




Apparently you don't.

You can't even grasp the simplicity of breaking a contract.

:flowstone:


Quote:

Calling me ignorant is as stupid as you can be. You cut your reality out of hate and arrogance. Your country is becoming hell because of your self-righteousness. You will only be able to turn away so many helping hands before you are trapped in isolation with only your own murderous ideas.

I have nothing more to say to you, your pathetically fearful, disrespectful attitude clearly blocks your mind from any intellectual progress I could otherwise bring you.

You self indulgence will be your self destruction, I will have no part in it.




Boy! I must have really touched a nerve. I know the truth hurts sometimes. Especially when you're dead set on believing a fantasy.

Thats OK it wont hurt for long....the painful sting of truth does eventually fade as you become aware of it.

Truth is....this guy defaulted on a contract, he signed, without any coercion.

Doesn't matter if the contract was with the military or the peace core. He should be punished to the full extent of the law, for breaking his word.

There are many benefits to joining the military. They offer you room and board, free meals, free health care, schooling and a chance to better yourself. The only down side is you become their servant for the length of your contract.

Not a problem for most people. Everyone understands the repercussions of disobeying orders while you are a member of the military.

This guy should not be praised.
He should be sent to prison or the front lines in Iraq.

This is not an attempt to support the war, or the current administration. I didn't agree with us going into Afghanistan much less this whole Iraq mess.

This is a simple fact of life. Joining the military isn't something you do on a whim. These are serious decisions that have serious repercussions.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6430978 - 01/06/07 12:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

How about the Peace Corps? That is most definitely a volunteer position, yet you are obligated to serve for a certain period of time once you sign the contract. Is that slavery?

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Registered: 07/12/05
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6431145 - 01/06/07 01:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Boy! I must have really touched a nerve. I know the truth hurts sometimes. Especially when you're dead set on believing a fantasy.

Thats OK it wont hurt for long....the painful sting of truth does eventually fade as you become aware of it.





The truth does hurt, that fundamentalism will dominate a mind which believes it can survive without change. It is so hard for me to not just laugh in the face of such arrogance and idiocy, but I have a responsibility to help the people of the world, however ugly and pathetic some of them may be in the present.

Times will change, and if you insist on clinging to the past like a frightened child you will dissolve from existence.

What hurts me is that we are all the same, and to see such failure and ignorance in you is to see it in my own past.

But you will be pried from your pathetic, primitive ideas, the harder you cling the more violently your mind will be ripped when change occurs in spite of you. You deserve more than any other I have met to suffer the consequences of your nation's foolish arrogance.

To continue to insult me in terms of my intelligence?
What a child.
Go to your bed, and lay with your insidious leader.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/06/07 01:42 PM)

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431229 - 01/06/07 01:37 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
How about the Peace Corps? That is most definitely a volunteer position, yet you are obligated to serve for a certain period of time once you sign the contract. Is that slavery?




I understand why you believe you should be allowed to give your life for a limited period of time, some people are simply not trustworthy enough to uphold their promises. I do not believe those people should be fighting for me, I am ashamed that this is the way it is now. I was proud of the soldiers in the world wars, who willingly devoted their lives- until the death- for our freedom. There was no question then of the will to fight, and those men could be recognized as the honorable people they were.

The wars we force our men into today are little more than genocide, there is no honor, there is no will to fight, only to kill and to take.

In my opinion the truth is that humanity must grow into such qualities as loyalty and honor, and cannot be pruned into the rightful shape by fear or pain.

When a country is fighting in a war their people do not have the want to fight, they deserve to lose. Only when equality is respected universally and all individuals are able to make free choices will international war pass into history.

I do believe there should be financial and social repercussions for deserting, there should simply be no revocation of life or liberty. But if your are a commander of unwilling, dishonorable men, you are not a commander, you are a dictator, and a murderer.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431277 - 01/06/07 01:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:

Times will change, and if you insist on clinging to the past like a frightened child you will dissolve from existence.

What hurts me is that we are all the same, and to see such failure and ignorance in you is to see it in my own past.

But you will be pried from your pathetic, primitive ideas, the harder you cling the more violently your mind will be ripped when change occurs in spite of you.




wtf?

Saying shit like that just hurts your argument.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6431301 - 01/06/07 02:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Niteowl wants it to be personal and personal alone, he's making it very clear, and I have nothing left to express to him except how I feel about him as a person...

I'd like to be done with talking to him, but I think everyone deserves a response of some sort...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431321 - 01/06/07 02:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Do you believe in the whole "2012" thing?

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Invisiblekaniz
That one, overthere.
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Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4,166
Loc: Ontario
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6431340 - 01/06/07 02:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Initially I thought 'good for him', but then Banez gave some good details that I was un aware of and presented a good argument, and now agree with him - dont sign up for a job you dont want to do.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431357 - 01/06/07 02:21 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I was proud of the soldiers in the world wars, who willingly devoted their lives- until the death- for our freedom. There was no question then of the will to fight, and those men could be recognized as the honorable people they were.




How do you know the personal cirumstances of those who fought in world wars and speak of them in such general terms? I'm sure that plenty of them did not wish to fight and struggled with it mentally. :wink:


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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431367 - 01/06/07 02:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.




Failure to provide contracted services generally = a civil money issue.

So he should owe them for the training he recieved, be paid for the services which he did perform, and he should be able to walk away.

So why are they trying to take part of his life by putting him in prison if they didn't think they own his life?

edit:

Additionally, the reason why people are not allowed to walk away from military service is because that would provide an avenue available to the American public to re-assert their rightful control of America.

In the event of an actual threat to America, no-one would walk away, or at least not any significant number. But in the highly unlikely event of a hijacked American presidential election by a crazed war-mongering lunatick fuckstick who then creates a state of emergency in America by faking a terrorist attack, fabricates intelligence data and presents it to congress to obtain war authorization, to get at a guy who tried to kill his da-da, then we should have the right to WALK THE FUCK AWAY!!!

Right?

Edited by Lightningfractal (01/06/07 03:00 PM)

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 16,449
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6431497 - 01/06/07 03:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Lightningfractal, that was fucking hilarious. I don't believe 9/11 was 'fake' but still you are on the fucking money.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6431511 - 01/06/07 03:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Whether faked, simply permitted, or part orchestrated I'm convinced Bush had his bloody hand in it.

This piece fits perfectly with the rest of the puzzle.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431675 - 01/06/07 03:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
How about the Peace Corps? That is most definitely a volunteer position, yet you are obligated to serve for a certain period of time once you sign the contract. Is that slavery?




I understand why you believe you should be allowed to give your life for a limited period of time, some people are simply not trustworthy enough to uphold their promises. I do not believe those people should be fighting for me, I am ashamed that this is the way it is now. I was proud of the soldiers in the world wars, who willingly devoted their lives- until the death- for our freedom. There was no question then of the will to fight, and those men could be recognized as the honorable people they were.

The wars we force our men into today are little more than genocide, there is no honor, there is no will to fight, only to kill and to take.

In my opinion the truth is that humanity must grow into such qualities as loyalty and honor, and cannot be pruned into the rightful shape by fear or pain.

When a country is fighting in a war their people do not have the want to fight, they deserve to lose. Only when equality is respected universally and all individuals are able to make free choices will international war pass into history.

I do believe there should be financial and social repercussions for deserting, there should simply be no revocation of life or liberty. But if your are a commander of unwilling, dishonorable men, you are not a commander, you are a dictator, and a murderer.




How could you type that much and not answer my question? the Peace Corps are not soldiers and have never fought in any battle. They are a humanitarian organization who help out in poor areas. With that background, can you answer my question?

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431745 - 01/06/07 04:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Niteowl wants it to be personal and personal alone, he's making it very clear, and I have nothing left to express to him except how I feel about him as a person...

I'd like to be done with talking to him, but I think everyone deserves a response of some sort...




How have I made this a personal issue?

By claiming that you are ignorant for not understanding the difference between a volunteer and a slave?


vol·un·teer (vŏlən-tîr')

noun

1. A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily: an information booth staffed by volunteers; hospital volunteers.
2. Law
A. A person who renders aid, performs a service, or assumes an obligation voluntarily.
B. A person who holds property under a deed made without consideration.
3. Botany A cultivated plant growing from self-sown or accidentally dropped seed.

adjective

1. Being, consisting of, or done by volunteers: volunteer firefighters; volunteer tutoring.
2. Botany Growing from self-sown or accidentally dropped seed. Used of a cultivated plant or crop.

verb: -teered, -teer·ing, -teers.

transitive verb

To give or offer to give voluntarily: volunteered their services; volunteer to give blood.

intransitive verb

1. To perform or offer to perform a service of one's own free will.
2. To do charitable or helpful work without pay: Many retirees volunteer in community service and day care centers.



slave (slāv)

noun

1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: “I was still the slave of education and prejudice” (Edward Gibbon)
3. One who works extremely hard.
4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component.


Claiming that these two are the same is ignorant.

ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

That truth whip hasn't stopped stinging yet has it.

I wasn't calling you stupid or retarded. I was not attacking you personally. I said that your opinion was not well informed, and tried to explain the difference between a volunteer and a slave. Something that you obviously didn't understand until this thread.

I hope that you come away from this discussion less ignorant and more informed about some common definitions used in the English language.

And possibly a better understanding of contract laws as well.....but I think that is going too far. I can't possibly fix all of your ignorance in one post.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6431778 - 01/06/07 04:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think the idea is that in signing up for the military people are volunteering for a form of slavery in that they lose their freedom, including their freedom to leave or change their minds without a substantial loss of life and liberty, not just a monetary loss.

And that this shouldn't be allowed.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6431782 - 01/06/07 04:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

slave (slāv)

noun

1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

Again this fits the military. The only difference is that the military pays their slaves.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6431795 - 01/06/07 04:22 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
I think the idea is that in signing up for the military people are volunteering for a form of slavery in that they lose their freedom, including their freedom to leave or change their minds without a substantial loss of life and liberty, not just a monetary loss.

And that this shouldn't be allowed.




Do you feel the same way about the Peace Corps? Should a person be trained on the taxpayer's dime and then be able to run off whenever they please?

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431883 - 01/06/07 04:53 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, same for any damn corps. If any one individual doesn't wish to play that game anymore they shouldn't have to.

But God forbid that, everyone around the world might decide to quit fighting one day and we can't have that right?

If taxpayer money is wasted on their training then that's the price of freedom and it should be paid. In all actuality the money was wasted already anyway.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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