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InvisibleBanez
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Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll
    #6424367 - 01/04/07 02:03 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

alright.. well this has got me pretty heated.. and it was split pretty much 50/50 last night.

here are some quick details along with a link to the actual site, the guy enlists in the army after we invade iraq, now he is getting called to go over there and serve and decides that he believes the war is "illegal" and refuses to go
What do you think of this guy?
You may choose only one
good, this guy did the right thing.
dont sign up for a job you wont do.
write in.


Votes accepted from (01/04/07 02:02 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424381 - 01/04/07 02:06 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

btw.. heres the link to the actual news article.

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs19056


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OfflineDrunkenAttempt
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424463 - 01/04/07 02:31 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Don't sign up for a job you won't do...the dude is a dope and should be ashamed of himself


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6424499 - 01/04/07 02:39 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

its still pretty close to 50/50


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424501 - 01/04/07 02:40 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I voted for the second one


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OfflineDrunkenAttempt
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424511 - 01/04/07 02:42 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Banez said:
its still pretty close to 50/50




I guess only 50% of the people here have a brain  :wink:  :wink:


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6424513 - 01/04/07 02:43 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

maybe the rest were just stoned when they voted?


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OfflineC20H25N3O
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424658 - 01/04/07 03:28 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

well, the only thing is he did offer to go to Afghanistan and even offered a resignation which was rejected. I can understand is willingness not to go to Iraq, but he did join after the war was underway.

I'm conflicted. I think he may be used now a political pawn more than anything else. I think if he honorably serves time for it (maybe not 6 -7 years) then there is nothing wrong with it. If he honestly is just serving for the free education/career then I don't know. I'm ambivalent and thats why I was a write in.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424675 - 01/04/07 03:36 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

The Iraq campaign is going south worse and worse as the weeks pass, so I believe it possible that he changed his mind.

If you have to die in a war, pick one that has meaning.


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InvisibleMike_yy
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Asante]
    #6424711 - 01/04/07 03:49 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Depends on whether the guy truly believes the war is illegal,, the job he signed up for was not to fight illegal wars.

Question is would he go to a different war if he believed in it,, if he would then i say him refusing to go to iraq is acceptable.

We will never know,,  :smile:.

Edit: General comment.


Edited by Mike_yy (01/04/07 03:51 PM)


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OfflineDrunkenAttempt
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Asante]
    #6424731 - 01/04/07 03:57 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Bush is sending more troops very soon(20,000 - 40,000 more) winthin the month to escalate the war some more...i think he wants to get as much conflict and damage done possible before the end of his term :frown:

Hey, where are those weapons of mass destruction at? the whole reason this war started in the first place...fuck i feel ashamed for the human race.


"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush is likely to send anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 additional troops to Iraq as part of his yet-to-be-announced new Iraq strategy, sources with knowledge of his deliberations told CNN Wednesday.

Bush is expected to address the nation on the new strategy early next week, sources have said.

The president has not yet signed off on any changes, including a possible increase of U.S. troops, according to the sources.

But he is "driving toward a conclusion" and a plan is "taking shape" and "getting more detailed" as the president puts "on the finer points," they said.

National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe denied a report Tuesday that Bush was ready to sign off on increasing troop strength in Iraq by 20,000.

"The president has not made any decisions," the spokesman said.

Asked about the possible troop increase Wednesday, White House spokesman Tony Snow said Bush is "moving toward what he thinks is going to be the appropriate complex of policies to get that done."

"When the president announces the way forward, he will provide answers to a lot of questions that I'm not going to," Snow said. (Watch what the president is doing to prepare his plan Video)

Earlier Wednesday, a U.S. military spokesman said that by year's end, all 11 Iraqi divisions will be operating independently, and that the U.S. military and multinational forces will be present only as a "support mechanism."

"By summertime, we hope to have ensured all Iraqi army decisions are being made by Iraqi ground forces command," Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said at a Baghdad news conference.

Last month, CNN reported that Bush was considering sending in as many as 30,000 to 40,000 troops to escalate the war, increasing troop levels to their highest point in the nearly four-year-old conflict. That would mean there could be as many as 165,000 troops in Iraq.

Other reports indicated the U.S. troop increase would be closer to 20,000, with additional Iraqi forces making up the remainder of the "surge."

A senior administration official involved in the Iraq strategy talks told CNN that a "targeted increase in troop strength" is "an active subject of discussion" and that the president was "significantly along in the process."

As a result, the official added, it should "surprise no one the Pentagon is looking at the mechanics of making that option possible."

Meanwhile, there are several steps Bush is likely to take before announcing any tactical changes in his policy on the Iraq war, administration officials said -- including consultations with Congress and the Iraqi government.

The president met Wednesday with his Cabinet to discuss the new Congress and domestic issues. (Watch how poll respondents feel about the Democrats agenda Video)

Wednesday night, Bush was host at the White House for what a spokesman called "a bicameral, bipartisan reception with approximately a dozen members of Congress and their spouses."

Administration officials told CNN that Democratic and Republican leadership of the House and Senate were invited to the reception.

During the party, Bush planned to hold "informal discussions about the year ahead," including his deliberations on Iraq.

However, a senior administration official noted the reception is more of a "social occasion."

The White House will place courtesy calls to members of Congress when Bush comes up with his final Iraq plan, the official said.

Those calls will go out "within a couple of days" before Bush addresses the nation.

Bush has not yet briefed Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki on his plan, but is expected to do so before the address.

Administration officials have stressed, however, that they remain in "constant" contact with Iraqi officials."


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6424827 - 01/04/07 04:26 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

The thing is, Bush will most probbly eventually have his "victory" in Iraq, simply by annihilating all opposition, not by them embracing him.
Every country in the world would want what I have to offer too, if I killed everyone who didn't.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6424840 - 01/04/07 04:31 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Sometimes if I'm wrong and I know it, I drive the point just a little further hoping to get away with it.

But thats with trivia. Bush is doing the same, but sacrifices thousands of human lives as if it means nothing to him.

And I think it means nothing to him. If we don't bother him about the dead, they're no burden to him too.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Asante]
    #6424915 - 01/04/07 05:02 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

The guy did the right thing. The American government has become an authoritarian leadership, there is no other way to take back your democracy than to disobey the leadership.

Phone taps? Warrantless mail searches? Legal torture?

Welcome to Nazi Germany with a mask.


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6424923 - 01/04/07 05:04 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I think we've all been cheated. We went to war to remove a threat only to find out there was no threat. While I agree with his position, the war was started over shady intelligence (lies), refusing orders do nothing for his cause. The reason being is that we're not looking for WMD's anymore. The reason we started the war may have been illegal. But now, we're establishing a new Iraqi government to replace the one we destroyed. To keep the conflict from escalating further. If we leave them high and dry we will have many more problems and justified reasons to defend our constitution. Our soldiers are doing exactly that. Why isn't he?

(Note: My position changed after I voted. The war has changed for our soldiers. The goals now are focused on damage control in lieu of removing WMD's. I voted for -good, this guy did the right thing.- I should've gone with #2)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425068 - 01/04/07 05:47 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
The guy did the right thing.




Far fucking from it. He should have not been so gung-ho to join the military. He should have waited a year or so to see how justified this "war" was.

Once you raise your hand and give an oath to serve your country, you have an obligation to follow orders or be sent to prison. Which is where this guy should be IMO.

Crying "foul" now makes him look like a pussy.

Quote:

The American government has become an authoritarian leadership, there is no other way to take back your democracy than to disobey the leadership.

Phone taps? Warrantless mail searches? Legal torture?

Welcome to Nazi Germany with a mask.




Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6425173 - 01/04/07 06:24 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Hardly. The government should no longer be obeyed until it can obey the people.

You're living under the next Hitler, only this one is decentralized, spread between a handful of individuals.

No obedience to this monster is irrelevant to anyone's freedom of choice.


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Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/04/07 06:36 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425189 - 01/04/07 06:29 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

True, government forgets who they work for, and the people they work for forget that they're the boss.

Fire the sonofabitch.


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6425200 - 01/04/07 06:33 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

This poll just shows how divided things truly are. Even amongst mushroom afficianados.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: adrug]
    #6425208 - 01/04/07 06:35 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Yeah, it's always a hard choice between justice and power.
Such is humanity.


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InvisibleVoidOfsPg
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425335 - 01/04/07 07:18 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I voted for "Don't sign up if you won't do the job", however, the job he signed up for was based on totally different pretenses.

Imagine this:

You get a job as an exterminator. Once you're finally in, you find out you're actually exterminating human beings instead of rats/insects. Should you keep your job? :shrug:


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: VoidOfsPg]
    #6425347 - 01/04/07 07:20 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

The war has been going on for YEARS. It was already going on BEFORE he signed up. He should have to deal with the results of his actions. If you dont want to go to Iraq... dont sign up for the US MILITARY you fucking r-tard.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6425360 - 01/04/07 07:25 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

It's never to late to change your mind... especially when you're about to go murder a human being...


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6425365 - 01/04/07 07:26 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

i voted #2 because i believe in personal responsibility.

this fucker joined the military. he should have known what he COULD get himself into. i bet you there are thousands of troops in iraq right now that don't agree with war yet are over there sacrificing because they understand the choice they made and have to live up to that choice.

this dude, and everyone else who voted #1 needs to put the blame of this issue on the right shoulders. stop making him a scape goat. no one forced him to go to war before he joined the military. when you sign on that dotted line, that is what you are agreeing to whether there it is wartime or not.

now, if this were a draftee...? totally different story, that's when revolution is at hand; not with a volunteer military though, sorry.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425372 - 01/04/07 07:27 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

This fucking asshole can choose not to murder a human being when he is over in Iraq.

Its a simple subject.

If you dont want to go to Iraq... dont JOIN THE MILITARY.

God damn.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6425384 - 01/04/07 07:31 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
This fucking asshole can choose not to murder a human being when he is over in Iraq.

Its a simple subject.

If you dont want to go to Iraq... dont JOIN THE MILITARY.

God damn.




it's even more basic than that.

If you don't agree and surrender yourself to the total control of the government, don't join the military. Because as soon as you do, you are theirs. All military people know that when they join. this guy is just a big pussy and it's a spit in the face of every soldier that has gone over there and died so far.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6425391 - 01/04/07 07:33 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

""I saw the pain and agony etched upon the faces of all these families of lost soldiers. And I told myself that this needs to stop."— Lt. Ehren Watada"

what a gutless, selfish coward.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6425400 - 01/04/07 07:35 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Also:

"We cannot have people in power that are irresponsible and corrupt and that keep on going that way because they're not held accountable to the people."

If he wants to be a fucking martyr, and lay down his life for the constituion/the right thing like he says earlier in that interview, then why doesn't he personally assassinate bush. i mean, it couldn't be that hard for a militarily trained killing machine.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6425406 - 01/04/07 07:37 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Syle said:

If you don't agree and surrender yourself to the total control of the government, don't join the military. Because as soon as you do, you are theirs. All military people know that when they join. this guy is just a big pussy




No shit... I dont agree with the war in Iraq in any way. This guy made a stupid choice and now he is going to have to take responsibility for that. When you join the military they make it VERY CLEAR what your commitment is.

You dont get married then change your mind about it the next day...


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6425484 - 01/04/07 07:59 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I think it's high time slavery was abolished... even in the military...

If a country cannot find willing participants in a war... that's not a war they should be allowed to fight...

That's why I voted #1.

I also think any resistance against Bush is good resistance.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425511 - 01/04/07 08:07 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

You do realize that when one is a slave, they do not enter it with their own consent and they are not paid, right?

Perhaps you can explain to us how military service is slavery?


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425520 - 01/04/07 08:09 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:


I also think any resistance against Bush is good resistance.




seems like you have an agenda then.

try looking at it from an unbiased logical perspective of the way our military and laws work. these laws and the rules of the military aren't hidden. you have to be an idiot or just delusional to not realize what you are getting yourself into with the military.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425617 - 01/04/07 08:37 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Its shit like this that makes me realize their is just as much ignorance in the left as their is the right.

People just make a choice about what side to choose then stop thinking about situations logically.

I hate Bush so anything that goes against him is GOOD!!!

I love Bush so anything that he does is GOOD!!!

fuck...


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6425687 - 01/04/07 08:58 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I'm glad he's doing this. Fuck the war. Good they wasted the money training him and now he's giving them a nice solid fuck off. Good if he's hurting morale. Good that he's calling the war illegal because it fucking is. The UN opposed it from the get go. Anyone who joins the military should take the money if it's what they want and roll the fuck out if it's bullshit.

Promises? Contracts? Don't sign up if you don't want to do the service?

FUCK ALL THAT BULLSHIT

The American government are the biggest deal breaking ass-fuck liars in the universe so so what if someone is sticking it to them.

Fuck! What we need to be worried about is all the innocent people who the fucking military is MURDERING every fucking day!


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6425795 - 01/04/07 09:22 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

:lol:


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6425808 - 01/04/07 09:26 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Hardly. The government should no longer be obeyed until it can obey the people.

You're living under the next Hitler, only this one is decentralized, spread between a handful of individuals.

No obedience to this monster is irrelevant to anyone's freedom of choice.




:rofl2:

Silly liberals, thinking that no one could possibly support something they don't.

LOL

People who have such a big problem with the United States might wish to remember that if it wasn't for the French sticking their nose into a situation that was none of their business, the American Revolution, there might not be a place so FUCKING WONDERFUL that any asshole with an opinion on something can broadcast it to the world.  If you posted anti-government sentiment and happened to live in China, the next time you were on the internet would be on the Amnesty International homepage.

No one twisted that guy's arm to get him to sign up for the military, and he is a disgrace to the men and women who have given their lives because their country ask it of them.  The war is not illegal, it is in fact far more legal than the Vietnam war because Congress gave the President the full authority to act.

This guy is a fucktard, and idiots like him completely undermine the credibility of the left. He does not agree with the war and so calls it 'illegal' while there is, as I have explained, absolutely no basis for that sentiment beyond his deciding that whatever he disagrees with is not legal.  It reminds me of the "Bush is not President" bullshit from several years ago, when even Al Gore acknowledged that Bush was... :thumbdown:

Oh, if only you had posted this in OTD, my Ohioian friend, so I could post what I really think... :wink:


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6425863 - 01/04/07 09:39 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
I'm glad he's doing this. Fuck the war. Good they wasted the money training him and now he's giving them a nice solid fuck off. Good if he's hurting morale. Good that he's calling the war illegal because it fucking is. The UN opposed it from the get go. Anyone who joins the military should take the money if it's what they want and roll the fuck out if it's bullshit.

Promises? Contracts? Don't sign up if you don't want to do the service?

FUCK ALL THAT BULLSHIT

The American government are the biggest deal breaking ass-fuck liars in the universe so so what if someone is sticking it to them.

Fuck! What we need to be worried about is all the innocent people who the fucking military is MURDERING every fucking day!




the UN opposed it? yah, because they are the gleaming image of perfection and non-corruption  :rolleyes:


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6425911 - 01/04/07 09:52 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

So fuck the UN I don't care. But my point still stands that the Iraq War is illegal under the only international governing body with authority over the matter.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6425938 - 01/04/07 09:59 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

so "Good that he's calling the war illegal because it fucking is." is all you got then...

cool :penguinmonkey:


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6426004 - 01/04/07 10:18 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

The US govt has chosen to recognize the UN, not me. Who fucking cares anyway? The point is I'm glad this pisses off the people it pisses off because they're a bunch of cunts anyway.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6426011 - 01/04/07 10:19 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Please, just shut your mouth. Its people like you that give the conservatives ammunition against anyone who is against the military action in Iraq.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: adrug]
    #6426032 - 01/04/07 10:25 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I think they get their ammunition wherever the fuck they want because people are too cowardly to call them 'a bunch of murdering cunts'.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427442 - 01/05/07 11:45 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Hardly. The government should no longer be obeyed until it can obey the people.

You're living under the next Hitler, only this one is decentralized, spread between a handful of individuals.

No obedience to this monster is irrelevant to anyone's freedom of choice.




This poll was not about the corruption of our government. I will agree with you the there is more than enough corruption to go around in the US government.

This poll was about a soldier not following orders.

He volunteered

No one twisted his arm to join the military. He went in with the intent of going to war. Trying to weasel his way out of it now makes him a traitor and he should be sent to prison for it.

The military spends lots of money to train these young men. For the military to loose its investment, is a breach of contract. The government has you by the balls for as long as you signed up for.

Quote:

It's never to late to change your mind




It is once you raise your right hand and take an oath to serve in the military. You can sign your name all day and none of it means shit until you take that oath......He knew this. When you join the military you give away all your rights.

Quote:

... especially when you're about to go murder a human being...




:whatever: he signed up to go to war and kill human beings, he is trying to default on his contract.


Quote:

I think it's high time slavery was abolished... even in the military...

I also think any resistance against Bush is good resistance.




Trying to compare an all volunteer military with slavery is ignorance at its finest.

Defaulting on a contract with the military, is not "resisting Bush" :rolleyes:
Bush could be killed tomorrow (I wish) but the contract he has with the military still stands. Him doing this is not going to harm anyone but himself.


Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
I'm glad he's doing this. Fuck the war. Good they wasted the money training him and now he's giving them a nice solid fuck off. Good if he's hurting morale. Good that he's calling the war illegal because it fucking is. The UN opposed it from the get go. Anyone who joins the military should take the money if it's what they want and roll the fuck out if it's bullshit.




I seriously doubt he gets away with this little prank. Probably get booted out with a dis-honorable discharge (good luck finding a decent job) ......if he is lucky.

His ass needs to either be shipped straight to the front lines in Iraq or sent to prison for the remainder of his tour.

Quote:

Who fucking cares anyway? The point is I'm glad this pisses off the people it pisses off because they're a bunch of cunts anyway.




:whatever: You sound pretty pissed off about the situation your self...are you a cunt too?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6427455 - 01/05/07 11:52 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

i think he did the right thing simply because every individual should have the right to change their mind , especially when it comes to serious buisness that may cost you your life.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6427456 - 01/05/07 11:54 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

he signed up to go to war and kill human beings, he is trying to default on his contract.




You wouldn't think his contract was more important than his principles if he was ordered to go murder you and your family.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427651 - 01/05/07 01:28 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.

I know you think you own that man until you "let go of his balls", I don't think you do. I think he owns himself. I'm sorry you can't understand my point of view.

Making the statement that my point of view is 'ignorant' is a very good representation of the sort of person you are, and the sort of person that considers a man's life a piece of property. It is painfully clear that I have a well formulated opinion, regardless of how it agrees with yours. Your insulting nature reveals the vulnerability of your argument in any context other than force.

PS: I'm afraid to hear your definition of a volunteer... I imagine it would have some interesting parallels with Bush's definition of torture...


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Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/05/07 01:40 PM)


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427690 - 01/05/07 01:41 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Great post EM!!!

Quote:

I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.

I know you think you own that man until you "let go of his balls", I don't think you do. I think he owns himself.




Very well said and I agree 100%


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427692 - 01/05/07 01:42 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

He owns his own life, which is exactly how he volunteered. People have free will to do whatever they please, whether its doing drugs, committing suicide, or signing a binding contract.

He is an adult who entered the armed forces under his own volition. This does not constitute slavery.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427698 - 01/05/07 01:43 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427705 - 01/05/07 01:45 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.




HELL YEAH!!!!


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427706 - 01/05/07 01:45 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
He owns his own life, which is exactly how he volunteered.




He owns his own life... thus he may relinquish ownership of it?
Your argument fails immediately.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427709 - 01/05/07 01:46 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.




HELL YEAH!!!!




:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

EDIT: hehe but lets not hijack the thread too much :wink:


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Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/05/07 02:13 PM)


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427714 - 01/05/07 01:47 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

He is an adult who entered the armed forces under his own volition. This does not constitute slavery.




What if someone volunteered to be a slave and then after 10 years of service changed his mind? Would he be a slave?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427715 - 01/05/07 01:47 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427722 - 01/05/07 01:51 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

He is an adult who entered the armed forces under his own volition. This does not constitute slavery.




What if someone volunteered to be a slave and then after 10 years of service changed his mind? Would he be a slave?




First off, you don't volunteer to be a slave. Secondly, when you sign a contract with the military, you agree to serve for a certain time period. If this tenth year is after the end of your contract, then there is no problem.

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427723 - 01/05/07 01:51 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




Because his intrinsic right to self-sovereignty is infinitely more meaningful than some lame-ass government 'contract'.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427728 - 01/05/07 01:52 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




I think you expressed your opinion more accurately here.

You believe a man's life s possessable property, I do not.

If you were owned, perhaps you would not.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427738 - 01/05/07 01:55 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

He is an adult who entered the armed forces under his own volition. This does not constitute slavery.




What if someone volunteered to be a slave and then after 10 years of service changed his mind? Would he be a slave?




First off, you don't volunteer to be a slave. Secondly, when you sign a contract with the military, you agree to serve for a certain time period. If this tenth year is after the end of your contract, then there is no problem.

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?




I don't understand why you believe this is similar...
I would consider this a breach of contract... I consider money in return for employment a fair exchange that should be allowed between two willing parties...

What does this have to do with whether or not a man's life may be possessed?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427742 - 01/05/07 01:56 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




Because his intrinsic right to self-sovereignty is infinitely more meaningful than some lame-ass government 'contract'.




Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them? Should people be able to break contracts willy-nilly after they sign into them because they realize afterwards that it wasn't a good decision? The man made a life decision that he obviously did not think long enough about and it's coming to bite him in the ass now.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427743 - 01/05/07 01:56 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?




I would support the individual over the machine the same way I am now. My belief system isn't based in a belief in contracts it's based in the belief that the military, as an institution, is evil. I will always side against the military and I don't care if you can line it up in a way that makes me seem inconsistent.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427749 - 01/05/07 01:58 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

He is an adult who entered the armed forces under his own volition. This does not constitute slavery.




What if someone volunteered to be a slave and then after 10 years of service changed his mind? Would he be a slave?




First off, you don't volunteer to be a slave. Secondly, when you sign a contract with the military, you agree to serve for a certain time period. If this tenth year is after the end of your contract, then there is no problem.

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?




I don't understand why you believe this is similar...
I would consider this a breach of contract... I consider money in return for employment a fair exchange that should be allowed between two willing parties...

What does this have to do with whether or not a man's life may be possessed?




Both situations are breaches of contract. The man signed a contract that he would serve in the armed forces for X number of years. Obviously he did not complete these years, so he is liable for this.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427750 - 01/05/07 01:58 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them?




Sure. Fuck those corporate cunts.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427753 - 01/05/07 01:59 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?




I would support the individual over the machine the same way I am now. My belief system isn't based in a belief in contracts it's based in the belief that the military, as an institution, is evil. I will always side against the military and I don't care if you can line it up in a way that makes me seem inconsistent.




The military, like any other institution, is not inherently evil. It's the way it is used which can be evil.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427756 - 01/05/07 02:00 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them?




Sure. Fuck those corporate cunts.




So, your view on life is that anyone with more power than you is either evil or a cunt?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427758 - 01/05/07 02:00 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




Because his intrinsic right to self-sovereignty is infinitely more meaningful than some lame-ass government 'contract'.




Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them? Should people be able to break contracts willy-nilly after they sign into them because they realize afterwards that it wasn't a good decision? The man made a life decision that he obviously did not think long enough about and it's coming to bite him in the ass now.




You are avoiding the issue quite severely.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SIGN YOUR LIFE AWAY. Period.
Owing money is different, if you failed to return a debt you would be committing a form of theft (in my opinion)... and that would be viable territory for legal repercussions...

But I do not believe you can steal your own life from someone else...


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427761 - 01/05/07 02:01 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427768 - 01/05/07 02:04 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

That's just picking apart my language and a very obvious point to make but still I'll stand by my statement. If something or someone only does bad things then that person or thing is bad. Weapons are bad, ok? Just because you can hammer a sword into a plow doesn't make it any less a sword.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427772 - 01/05/07 02:06 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Where are the limits here?

Can the government provide us with water or electricity in exchange for our life signed away?

Land?

Air?

The right to live?

We need to improve our definitions of slavery... your government is pushing your people farther and farther into it using insidious economic and political methods... 5/6 Americans have less money that the previous generation... you have lost the right to privacy in your communication networks... when you have no more ability to move or breath in your land, yet you are technically free... what does that make you?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427774 - 01/05/07 02:06 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Weapons are not bad. The people who use them to hurt others are. An inanimate object can not be bad or good.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427775 - 01/05/07 02:07 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them?




Sure. Fuck those corporate cunts.




So, your view on life is that anyone with more power than you is either evil or a cunt?




No. Just those that try to use their power to widen my sphincter. CC companies evil cunts? Fuck yaeh. In a word 'usury'.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427778 - 01/05/07 02:08 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Weapons are not bad. The people who use them to hurt others are. An inanimate object can not be bad or good.




Yawn


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427781 - 01/05/07 02:08 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.




If a man is about to die, and cannot pay to save his life, may another man buy him the cure in exchange for 100 years of service?

Where are the limits?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427789 - 01/05/07 02:10 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

In a sense, you already do sign your life away for those things all the time. To be able to afford those utilities, you go to work. This is not going to change.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427796 - 01/05/07 02:12 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.




If a man is about to die, and cannot pay to save his life, may another man buy him the cure in exchange for 100 years of service?

Where are the limits?




If you feel your life is worth living under whatever terms are set in that contract, then yes.

the limits are set when there is physical coercion involved which forces someone to sign a contract. When a non-consenting party signs a contract, it is going too far.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427799 - 01/05/07 02:13 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Well, guys, I'm off to the shower and then the casino. It was great debating with you.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427807 - 01/05/07 02:15 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Well, as long as you realize what you're saying...

According to your beliefs you may have cotton fields full of men who may never, ever leave... simply because they once wrote their name on a paper...

This is a frightening idea to me...


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427811 - 01/05/07 02:16 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Yeah, you too. It's worth seeing what you have to say even if I disagree with it! :thumbup:


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427864 - 01/05/07 02:33 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Who would sign a contract to pick cotton and never leave?

When you sign a contract to the military it is a contract to serve your country for 4 years. They make this VERY CLEAR. You are not in any way signing your "life" over to them. They make it very clear they you may risk or loose your life. My grandfather served in WW2 and he still has his "life" and is actually proud of his time served. I understand that you may not agree with the war in Iraq... which is why you would not sign a 4 year contract with the military when the war is still going on.

If you do not want to go to Iraq... don't join the military. Its that simple. This man should have thought about his choice more carefully obviously.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427912 - 01/05/07 02:50 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




Because his intrinsic right to self-sovereignty is infinitely more meaningful than some lame-ass government 'contract'.




Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them? Should people be able to break contracts willy-nilly after they sign into them because they realize afterwards that it wasn't a good decision? The man made a life decision that he obviously did not think long enough about and it's coming to bite him in the ass now.




You are avoiding the issue quite severely.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SIGN YOUR LIFE AWAY. Period.
Owing money is different, if you failed to return a debt you would be committing a form of theft (in my opinion)... and that would be viable territory for legal repercussions...

But I do not believe you can steal your own life from someone else...




not performing you work duties on a contract *IS* theft. You *ARE* stealing money from the institution, corporate or government, that you contracted with to do X labor or job for X money. He *WAS* getting paid, and he did BREACH his contract.

I contract in the IT industry for a living, its the same damn shit. Just because its the 'army' doesnt make it legally or morally any different. If you dont want the job, you dont take the contract.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6428884 - 01/05/07 08:29 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.




You have a very strange definition of slavery. Read some history for a better definition of "slavery". Volunteering to be in the military is not slavery. The people who go in the military do it of their own free will. There is no coercion involved.

How can you claim that being a volunteer is the same as slavery???


Weather or not you believe it is right for a person to volunteer for the military is irrelevant. It is a fact that people can volunteer for service in the military. They can even sign up for a 2 year tour rather than a 4 year tour. This guy knew this when he joined the military.


Quote:

I know you think you own that man until you "let go of his balls", I don't think you do. I think he owns himself. I'm sorry you can't understand my point of view.




I never said that "I" owned anyone.

I'm sorry that you cant understand simple contract laws.


Quote:

Making the statement that my point of view is 'ignorant' is a very good representation of the sort of person you are, and the sort of person that considers a man's life a piece of property.




Your point of view that a volunteer is the same as slavery is .....I G N O R A N T

Pick up a dictionary and do some reading before you start making up your own definitions for commonly used words.

Quote:

It is painfully clear that I have a well formulated opinion, regardless of how it agrees with yours. Your insulting nature reveals the vulnerability of your argument in any context other than force.




Your are entitled to you opinion. It is far from well informed though. You cant even grasp some simple definitions such as volunteer and slavery

Quote:

PS: I'm afraid to hear your definition of a volunteer... I imagine it would have some interesting parallels with Bush's definition of torture...




:whatever:

Dude you are grasping at straws my friend. How can you make the claim now that a volunteer is the same as torture?

You are living in a fantasy world and it will come crashing down around you one day.

Quote:

And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.




Man he volunteered to serve in this organization.

Quote:

He owns his own life... thus he may relinquish ownership of it?
Your argument fails immediately.




If you own a car don't you have the right to relinquish ownership of it......even if it is for a weekend?


Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
According to your beliefs you may have cotton fields full of men who may never, ever leave... simply because they once wrote their name on a paper...

This is a frightening idea to me...




Redstorm never said that. This is another of your "strawman contracts" that you so love to make up. Joining the military is not a lifetime deal, you only sign up for 2 or 4 years......not forever.
:rolleyes:








Quote:

Granny said:
not performing you work duties on a contract *IS* theft.  You *ARE* stealing money from the institution, corporate or government, that you contracted with to do X labor or job for X money.  He *WAS* getting paid, and he did BREACH his contract.

I contract in the IT industry for a living, its the same damn shit.  Just because its the 'army' doesn't make it legally or morally any different.  If you don't want the job, you don't take the contract.




:congrats:


Some people are confusing supporting the government and breach of contract

This guy signed a 4 year contract and he should do his time weather it is in the Job Core or the US military.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6429133 - 01/05/07 09:54 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.




You have a very strange definition of slavery. Read some history for a better definition of "slavery". Volunteering to be in the military is not slavery. The people who go in the military do it of their own free will. There is no coercion involved.

How can you claim that being a volunteer is the same as slavery???


Weather or not you believe it is right for a person to volunteer for the military is irrelevant. It is a fact that people can volunteer for service in the military. They can even sign up for a 2 year tour rather than a 4 year tour. This guy knew this when he joined the military.


Quote:

I know you think you own that man until you "let go of his balls", I don't think you do. I think he owns himself. I'm sorry you can't understand my point of view.




I never said that "I" owned anyone.

I'm sorry that you cant understand simple contract laws.


Quote:

Making the statement that my point of view is 'ignorant' is a very good representation of the sort of person you are, and the sort of person that considers a man's life a piece of property.




Your point of view that a volunteer is the same as slavery is .....I G N O R A N T

Pick up a dictionary and do some reading before you start making up your own definitions for commonly used words.

Quote:

It is painfully clear that I have a well formulated opinion, regardless of how it agrees with yours. Your insulting nature reveals the vulnerability of your argument in any context other than force.




Your are entitled to you opinion. It is far from well informed though. You cant even grasp some simple definitions such as volunteer and slavery

Quote:

PS: I'm afraid to hear your definition of a volunteer... I imagine it would have some interesting parallels with Bush's definition of torture...




:whatever:

Dude you are grasping at straws my friend. How can you make the claim now that a volunteer is the same as torture?

You are living in a fantasy world and it will come crashing down around you one day.

Quote:

And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.




Man he volunteered to serve in this organization.

Quote:

He owns his own life... thus he may relinquish ownership of it?
Your argument fails immediately.




If you own a car don't you have the right to relinquish ownership of it......even if it is for a weekend?


Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
According to your beliefs you may have cotton fields full of men who may never, ever leave... simply because they once wrote their name on a paper...

This is a frightening idea to me...




Redstorm never said that. This is another of your "strawman contracts" that you so love to make up. Joining the military is not a lifetime deal, you only sign up for 2 or 4 years......not forever.
:rolleyes:








Quote:

Granny said:
not performing you work duties on a contract *IS* theft.  You *ARE* stealing money from the institution, corporate or government, that you contracted with to do X labor or job for X money.  He *WAS* getting paid, and he did BREACH his contract.

I contract in the IT industry for a living, its the same damn shit.  Just because its the 'army' doesn't make it legally or morally any different.  If you don't want the job, you don't take the contract.




:congrats:


Some people are confusing supporting the government and breach of contract

This guy signed a 4 year contract and he should do his time weather it is in the Job Core or the US military.




great replies.

mayhaps this thread needs to be moved to the Politics forum?


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6430491 - 01/06/07 11:15 AM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.




You have a very strange definition of slavery. Read some history for a better definition of "slavery". Volunteering to be in the military is not slavery. The people who go in the military do it of their own free will. There is no coercion involved.

How can you claim that being a volunteer is the same as slavery???





You seem to need to put words in my mouth to even try and win this argument...

Time is the difference.
A volunteer may change his mind, a slave may not.

If your brain cannot grasp this concept, we have nothing more to discuss.

I know how the system is set up. I know I have new ideas. I know you are afraid of them.

Calling me ignorant is as stupid as you can be. You cut your reality out of hate and arrogance. Your country is becoming hell because of your self-righteousness. You will only be able to turn away so many helping hands before you are trapped in isolation with only your own murderous ideas.

I have nothing more to say to you, your pathetically fearful, disrespectful attitude clearly blocks your mind from any intellectual progress I could otherwise bring you.

You self indulgence will be your self destruction, I will have no part in it.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6430870 - 01/06/07 01:40 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
You seem to need to put words in my mouth to even try and win this argument...

Time is the difference.
A volunteer may change his mind, a slave may not.




No one has put any words in your mouth other than the ones you already put there. If a person volunteers to join the military he understands the repercussions of defaulting on that agreement. If you try to cut out early then you must suffer the consequences of your actions.

Plain and simple

Quote:

If your brain cannot grasp this concept, we have nothing more to discuss.




If your brain can't grasp the difference between a volunteer, a slave and a torturer, then we have nothing more to discuss.

Quote:

I know how the system is set up.




Apparently you don't.

You can't even grasp the simplicity of breaking a contract.

:flowstone:


Quote:

Calling me ignorant is as stupid as you can be. You cut your reality out of hate and arrogance. Your country is becoming hell because of your self-righteousness. You will only be able to turn away so many helping hands before you are trapped in isolation with only your own murderous ideas.

I have nothing more to say to you, your pathetically fearful, disrespectful attitude clearly blocks your mind from any intellectual progress I could otherwise bring you.

You self indulgence will be your self destruction, I will have no part in it.




Boy! I must have really touched a nerve. I know the truth hurts sometimes. Especially when you're dead set on believing a fantasy.

Thats OK it wont hurt for long....the painful sting of truth does eventually fade as you become aware of it.

Truth is....this guy defaulted on a contract, he signed, without any coercion.

Doesn't matter if the contract was with the military or the peace core. He should be punished to the full extent of the law, for breaking his word.

There are many benefits to joining the military. They offer you room and board, free meals, free health care, schooling and a chance to better yourself. The only down side is you become their servant for the length of your contract.

Not a problem for most people. Everyone understands the repercussions of disobeying orders while you are a member of the military.

This guy should not be praised.
He should be sent to prison or the front lines in Iraq.

This is not an attempt to support the war, or the current administration. I didn't agree with us going into Afghanistan much less this whole Iraq mess.

This is a simple fact of life. Joining the military isn't something you do on a whim. These are serious decisions that have serious repercussions.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6430978 - 01/06/07 02:24 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

How about the Peace Corps? That is most definitely a volunteer position, yet you are obligated to serve for a certain period of time once you sign the contract. Is that slavery?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6431145 - 01/06/07 03:19 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Boy! I must have really touched a nerve. I know the truth hurts sometimes. Especially when you're dead set on believing a fantasy.

Thats OK it wont hurt for long....the painful sting of truth does eventually fade as you become aware of it.





The truth does hurt, that fundamentalism will dominate a mind which believes it can survive without change. It is so hard for me to not just laugh in the face of such arrogance and idiocy, but I have a responsibility to help the people of the world, however ugly and pathetic some of them may be in the present.

Times will change, and if you insist on clinging to the past like a frightened child you will dissolve from existence.

What hurts me is that we are all the same, and to see such failure and ignorance in you is to see it in my own past.

But you will be pried from your pathetic, primitive ideas, the harder you cling the more violently your mind will be ripped when change occurs in spite of you. You deserve more than any other I have met to suffer the consequences of your nation's foolish arrogance.

To continue to insult me in terms of my intelligence?
What a child.
Go to your bed, and lay with your insidious leader.


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Edited by ExplosiveMango (01/06/07 03:42 PM)


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431229 - 01/06/07 03:37 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
How about the Peace Corps? That is most definitely a volunteer position, yet you are obligated to serve for a certain period of time once you sign the contract. Is that slavery?




I understand why you believe you should be allowed to give your life for a limited period of time, some people are simply not trustworthy enough to uphold their promises. I do not believe those people should be fighting for me, I am ashamed that this is the way it is now. I was proud of the soldiers in the world wars, who willingly devoted their lives- until the death- for our freedom. There was no question then of the will to fight, and those men could be recognized as the honorable people they were.

The wars we force our men into today are little more than genocide, there is no honor, there is no will to fight, only to kill and to take.

In my opinion the truth is that humanity must grow into such qualities as loyalty and honor, and cannot be pruned into the rightful shape by fear or pain.

When a country is fighting in a war their people do not have the want to fight, they deserve to lose. Only when equality is respected universally and all individuals are able to make free choices will international war pass into history.

I do believe there should be financial and social repercussions for deserting, there should simply be no revocation of life or liberty. But if your are a commander of unwilling, dishonorable men, you are not a commander, you are a dictator, and a murderer.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431277 - 01/06/07 03:54 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:

Times will change, and if you insist on clinging to the past like a frightened child you will dissolve from existence.

What hurts me is that we are all the same, and to see such failure and ignorance in you is to see it in my own past.

But you will be pried from your pathetic, primitive ideas, the harder you cling the more violently your mind will be ripped when change occurs in spite of you.




wtf?

Saying shit like that just hurts your argument.


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6431301 - 01/06/07 04:00 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Niteowl wants it to be personal and personal alone, he's making it very clear, and I have nothing left to express to him except how I feel about him as a person...

I'd like to be done with talking to him, but I think everyone deserves a response of some sort...


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431321 - 01/06/07 04:08 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Do you believe in the whole "2012" thing?


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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6431340 - 01/06/07 04:15 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Initially I thought 'good for him', but then Banez gave some good details that I was un aware of and presented a good argument, and now agree with him - dont sign up for a job you dont want to do.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431357 - 01/06/07 04:21 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I was proud of the soldiers in the world wars, who willingly devoted their lives- until the death- for our freedom. There was no question then of the will to fight, and those men could be recognized as the honorable people they were.




How do you know the personal cirumstances of those who fought in world wars and speak of them in such general terms? I'm sure that plenty of them did not wish to fight and struggled with it mentally. :wink:


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431367 - 01/06/07 04:25 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.




Failure to provide contracted services generally = a civil money issue.

So he should owe them for the training he recieved, be paid for the services which he did perform, and he should be able to walk away.

So why are they trying to take part of his life by putting him in prison if they didn't think they own his life?

edit:

Additionally, the reason why people are not allowed to walk away from military service is because that would provide an avenue available to the American public to re-assert their rightful control of America.

In the event of an actual threat to America, no-one would walk away, or at least not any significant number. But in the highly unlikely event of a hijacked American presidential election by a crazed war-mongering lunatick fuckstick who then creates a state of emergency in America by faking a terrorist attack, fabricates intelligence data and presents it to congress to obtain war authorization, to get at a guy who tried to kill his da-da, then we should have the right to WALK THE FUCK AWAY!!!

Right?


Edited by Lightningfractal (01/06/07 05:00 PM)


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6431497 - 01/06/07 05:08 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Lightningfractal, that was fucking hilarious. I don't believe 9/11 was 'fake' but still you are on the fucking money.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6431511 - 01/06/07 05:13 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Whether faked, simply permitted, or part orchestrated I'm convinced Bush had his bloody hand in it.

This piece fits perfectly with the rest of the puzzle.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431675 - 01/06/07 05:55 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
How about the Peace Corps? That is most definitely a volunteer position, yet you are obligated to serve for a certain period of time once you sign the contract. Is that slavery?




I understand why you believe you should be allowed to give your life for a limited period of time, some people are simply not trustworthy enough to uphold their promises. I do not believe those people should be fighting for me, I am ashamed that this is the way it is now. I was proud of the soldiers in the world wars, who willingly devoted their lives- until the death- for our freedom. There was no question then of the will to fight, and those men could be recognized as the honorable people they were.

The wars we force our men into today are little more than genocide, there is no honor, there is no will to fight, only to kill and to take.

In my opinion the truth is that humanity must grow into such qualities as loyalty and honor, and cannot be pruned into the rightful shape by fear or pain.

When a country is fighting in a war their people do not have the want to fight, they deserve to lose. Only when equality is respected universally and all individuals are able to make free choices will international war pass into history.

I do believe there should be financial and social repercussions for deserting, there should simply be no revocation of life or liberty. But if your are a commander of unwilling, dishonorable men, you are not a commander, you are a dictator, and a murderer.




How could you type that much and not answer my question? the Peace Corps are not soldiers and have never fought in any battle. They are a humanitarian organization who help out in poor areas. With that background, can you answer my question?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431745 - 01/06/07 06:11 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Niteowl wants it to be personal and personal alone, he's making it very clear, and I have nothing left to express to him except how I feel about him as a person...

I'd like to be done with talking to him, but I think everyone deserves a response of some sort...




How have I made this a personal issue?

By claiming that you are ignorant for not understanding the difference between a volunteer and a slave?


vol·un·teer (vŏlən-tîr')

noun

1. A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily: an information booth staffed by volunteers; hospital volunteers.
2. Law
A. A person who renders aid, performs a service, or assumes an obligation voluntarily.
B. A person who holds property under a deed made without consideration.
3. Botany A cultivated plant growing from self-sown or accidentally dropped seed.

adjective

1. Being, consisting of, or done by volunteers: volunteer firefighters; volunteer tutoring.
2. Botany Growing from self-sown or accidentally dropped seed. Used of a cultivated plant or crop.

verb: -teered, -teer·ing, -teers.

transitive verb

To give or offer to give voluntarily: volunteered their services; volunteer to give blood.

intransitive verb

1. To perform or offer to perform a service of one's own free will.
2. To do charitable or helpful work without pay: Many retirees volunteer in community service and day care centers.



slave (slāv)

noun

1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: “I was still the slave of education and prejudice” (Edward Gibbon)
3. One who works extremely hard.
4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component.


Claiming that these two are the same is ignorant.

ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

That truth whip hasn't stopped stinging yet has it.

I wasn't calling you stupid or retarded. I was not attacking you personally. I said that your opinion was not well informed, and tried to explain the difference between a volunteer and a slave. Something that you obviously didn't understand until this thread.

I hope that you come away from this discussion less ignorant and more informed about some common definitions used in the English language.

And possibly a better understanding of contract laws as well.....but I think that is going too far. I can't possibly fix all of your ignorance in one post.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6431778 - 01/06/07 06:18 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

I think the idea is that in signing up for the military people are volunteering for a form of slavery in that they lose their freedom, including their freedom to leave or change their minds without a substantial loss of life and liberty, not just a monetary loss.

And that this shouldn't be allowed.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6431782 - 01/06/07 06:19 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

slave (slāv)

noun

1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

Again this fits the military. The only difference is that the military pays their slaves.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6431795 - 01/06/07 06:22 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
I think the idea is that in signing up for the military people are volunteering for a form of slavery in that they lose their freedom, including their freedom to leave or change their minds without a substantial loss of life and liberty, not just a monetary loss.

And that this shouldn't be allowed.




Do you feel the same way about the Peace Corps? Should a person be trained on the taxpayer's dime and then be able to run off whenever they please?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431883 - 01/06/07 06:53 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Yes, same for any damn corps. If any one individual doesn't wish to play that game anymore they shouldn't have to.

But God forbid that, everyone around the world might decide to quit fighting one day and we can't have that right?

If taxpayer money is wasted on their training then that's the price of freedom and it should be paid. In all actuality the money was wasted already anyway.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6431922 - 01/06/07 07:07 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

*refrains from indulging niteowl's childish tendencies*

Redstorm:
If a man may leave the peace corps at his own will, no he is not a slave.

Anyone who is given a dichotomy between a particular course of action and the revocation of life or liberty is a slave in my opinion.

I do not believe contracts should be legal where life or liberty are offered in exchange for goods and/or services, or as collateral. I believe that is trading in slavery.

This is not to say I believe a dichotomy should not exist between a course of INACTION and loss of liberty. I do believe that, for example, a man should be forced to refrain from criminal activity at the penalty of liberty, in some cases.


--------------------
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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6431961 - 01/06/07 07:18 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

This is not to say I believe a dichotomy should not exist between a course of INACTION and loss of liberty. I do believe that, for example, a man should be forced to refrain from criminal activity at the penalty of liberty, in some cases.




And even then we should be working on an effective way to abolish that as well. Taking away people's opportunity to live life is too barbaric, and far more often than not a man's years are valued at waaaaaay too little when his years are taken to compensate for crime, compared to the injuries he caused with the crime.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6431974 - 01/06/07 07:24 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

This is not to say I believe a dichotomy should not exist between a course of INACTION and loss of liberty. I do believe that, for example, a man should be forced to refrain from criminal activity at the penalty of liberty, in some cases.




And even then we should be working on an effective way to abolish that as well. Taking away people's opportunity to live life is too barbaric, and far more often than not a man's years are valued at waaaaaay too little when his years are taken to compensate for crime, compared to the injuries he caused with the crime.




Agreed, it should only be for the purpose of protecting the population from dangerous actions (murder, rape) and only with the intention of rehabilitation.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6432020 - 01/06/07 07:38 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Yes, and if men's lives were valued highly daily by society, far fewer would throw their lives away on such acts.


--------------------
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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6432221 - 01/06/07 09:00 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

This is not to say I believe a dichotomy should not exist between a course of INACTION and loss of liberty. I do believe that, for example, a man should be forced to refrain from criminal activity at the penalty of liberty, in some cases.




And even then we should be working on an effective way to abolish that as well. Taking away people's opportunity to live life is too barbaric, and far more often than not a man's years are valued at waaaaaay too little when his years are taken to compensate for crime, compared to the injuries he caused with the crime.




Agreed, it should only be for the purpose of protecting the population from dangerous actions (murder, rape) and only with the intention of rehabilitation.




if you let one person get away with it, what's to stop everyone other person out there in any kind of legaling binding contract to just say" meh, i don't feel like dealing with this now."

stop making exceptions for this guy just because it pertains/helps your political agenda of making the war in Iraq look bad and Bush look like the anti-christ.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6432266 - 01/06/07 09:11 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

What you quoted has pretty much nothing to do with the reply you posted to it.

Just thought I'd let you know. :wink:


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432274 - 01/06/07 09:12 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

okay, my idiocy aside...i think my post makes sense for the issue at hand.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6432305 - 01/06/07 09:18 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still going to stink.


--------------------
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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432309 - 01/06/07 09:18 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still goint to stink.




it doesn't matter, even if this guy had a legitimate excuse, what is to stop anyone else from serving just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, if you let this guy off the hook...?


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Banez]
    #6432314 - 01/06/07 09:20 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Jesus drops the ball again. What a shame.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6432335 - 01/06/07 09:26 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still goint to stink.




it doesn't matter, even if this guy had a legitimate excuse, what is to stop anyone else from serving just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, if you let this guy off the hook...?




If he's right, and the war is later deemed by the democratic congress to have been illegal, he'll be exhonorated, honored, write a book, and make a million dollars.


--------------------
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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432342 - 01/06/07 09:29 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still goint to stink.




it doesn't matter, even if this guy had a legitimate excuse, what is to stop anyone else from serving just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, if you let this guy off the hook...?




If he's right, and the war is later deemed by the democratic congress to have been illegal, he'll be exhonorated, honored, write a book, and make a million dollars.




whether he is right or not doesn't matter. he signed a damn contract that he should have known the circumstances of. he, uncoerced, knowingly signed this contract. why should he get out of it? my point is, what is to stop ANYONE, ANYWHERE, from abandoning a legally binding contract now if this guy gets off free?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6432422 - 01/06/07 09:42 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
whether he is right or not doesn't matter. he signed a damn contract that he should have known the circumstances of. he, uncoerced, knowingly signed this contract. why should he get out of it? my point is, what is to stop ANYONE, ANYWHERE, from abandoning a legally binding contract now if this guy gets off free?




Exactly!


This isn't about the war in Iraq, or support for Bush and Co.

It is about breach of contract, and nothing more.


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: niteowl]
    #6432430 - 01/06/07 09:44 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Syle said:
whether he is right or not doesn't matter. he signed a damn contract that he should have known the circumstances of. he, uncoerced, knowingly signed this contract. why should he get out of it? my point is, what is to stop ANYONE, ANYWHERE, from abandoning a legally binding contract now if this guy gets off free?




Exactly!


This isn't about the war in Iraq, or support for Bush and Co.

It is about breach of contract, and nothing more.




exactly.. thats why i made this poll, when i was agruing originally everyone seemed to be against my point of view.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6432443 - 01/06/07 09:48 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still goint to stink.




it doesn't matter, even if this guy had a legitimate excuse, what is to stop anyone else from serving just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, if you let this guy off the hook...?




If he's right, and the war is later deemed by the democratic congress to have been illegal, he'll be exhonorated, honored, write a book, and make a million dollars.




whether he is right or not doesn't matter. he signed a damn contract that he should have known the circumstances of. he, uncoerced, knowingly signed this contract. why should he get out of it? my point is, what is to stop ANYONE, ANYWHERE, from abandoning a legally binding contract now if this guy gets off free?




Compelling him to fight an illegal war is a breach of contract by the government which renders that particular contract null and void.

Not every contract everywhere.


--------------------
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OfflineFades_to_Black
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432770 - 01/06/07 11:16 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

I think that this guy is just trying to worm his was out of fighting because he's scared to die. He knew when he signed up that we were at war and why we were a war. If the war is illegal in his eyes, why did he sign up to fight in it in the first place. It just makes no sense!! After seeing the horrific news footage of the carnage that is happening over there, he probably said screw that and bailed. Now, he's using the "the war is illegal" as a way of distracting from the fact that he is just plain scared.


--------------------
With a bit of luck, his life was ruined forever. Always thinking that just behind some narrow door in all of his favorite bars, men in red woolen shirts are getting incredible kicks from things he'll never know. - Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

~*Krysta*~


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432791 - 01/06/07 11:21 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still goint to stink.




it doesn't matter, even if this guy had a legitimate excuse, what is to stop anyone else from serving just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, if you let this guy off the hook...?




If he's right, and the war is later deemed by the democratic congress to have been illegal, he'll be exhonorated, honored, write a book, and make a million dollars.




whether he is right or not doesn't matter. he signed a damn contract that he should have known the circumstances of. he, uncoerced, knowingly signed this contract. why should he get out of it? my point is, what is to stop ANYONE, ANYWHERE, from abandoning a legally binding contract now if this guy gets off free?




Compelling him to fight an illegal war is a breach of contract by the government which renders that particular contract null and void.

Not every contract everywhere.




...no sense arguing sense with you so I guess I will just stop here.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Fades_to_Black]
    #6432802 - 01/06/07 11:22 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Yeah, either that or he actually believes in what he's saying. Who's to say.

One thing is that if he were a pussy trying to dodge duty then why would he have signed up in the first place, knowing we were at war?

I don't buy that argument for that very reason.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Syle]
    #6432814 - 01/06/07 11:25 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Yeah, what you posted makes sense without the quote.

I'll address that. I think this guy has a lot of balls to stand up for what he and a lot of other thinking people knows is right. If that makes Bush look bad then well, then it does..

You can dump a gallon of perfume on a turd and it's still goint to stink.




it doesn't matter, even if this guy had a legitimate excuse, what is to stop anyone else from serving just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, if you let this guy off the hook...?




If he's right, and the war is later deemed by the democratic congress to have been illegal, he'll be exhonorated, honored, write a book, and make a million dollars.




whether he is right or not doesn't matter. he signed a damn contract that he should have known the circumstances of. he, uncoerced, knowingly signed this contract. why should he get out of it? my point is, what is to stop ANYONE, ANYWHERE, from abandoning a legally binding contract now if this guy gets off free?




Compelling him to fight an illegal war is a breach of contract by the government which renders that particular contract null and void.

Not every contract everywhere.




...no sense arguing sense with you so I guess I will just stop here.




Sure, take your little red wagon and go home then. I'll just hang out and kick cans.  :laugh:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineFades_to_Black
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Registered: 04/17/06
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432839 - 01/06/07 11:32 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

[Derogatory comment deleted at risk of being banned: but I still mean what I said]

The guy is wrong. And so are you... just accept it and move on.

It'll be okay.


--------------------
With a bit of luck, his life was ruined forever. Always thinking that just behind some narrow door in all of his favorite bars, men in red woolen shirts are getting incredible kicks from things he'll never know. - Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

~*Krysta*~


Edited by Fades_to_Black (01/06/07 11:41 PM)


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Fades_to_Black]
    #6432866 - 01/06/07 11:39 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

We can agree to disagree then. You move on.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineFades_to_Black
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Registered: 04/17/06
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6432882 - 01/06/07 11:43 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Boy, I think I've moved past you in more ways than one.


--------------------
With a bit of luck, his life was ruined forever. Always thinking that just behind some narrow door in all of his favorite bars, men in red woolen shirts are getting incredible kicks from things he'll never know. - Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

~*Krysta*~


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Fades_to_Black]
    #6432965 - 01/07/07 12:09 AM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Guys please , don't let the mistakes made by Jesus get you down. Its not our fault the Iraq war happened, and there will be other, greater, Christian wars. Cheer up.


--------------------


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/16/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6433367 - 01/07/07 03:23 AM (15 years, 25 days ago)

"Christian" vs Christian.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Fades_to_Black]
    #6435664 - 01/07/07 08:05 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Fades_to_Black said:
[Derogatory comment deleted at risk of being banned:  but I still mean what I said]

The guy is wrong.  And so are you... just accept it and move on.

It'll be okay.




Fuck war.  :grin: Anyone can walk away from any war for any reason whatsoever. Fuck the war pigs.  :evil:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6435685 - 01/07/07 08:09 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

:wink: I agree.


--------------------


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Registered: 07/12/05
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6436214 - 01/07/07 10:13 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:


Fuck war. Anyone can walk away from any war for any reason whatsoever. Fuck the war pigs.





Yep, absolutely.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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