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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427749 - 01/05/07 01:58 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

He is an adult who entered the armed forces under his own volition. This does not constitute slavery.




What if someone volunteered to be a slave and then after 10 years of service changed his mind? Would he be a slave?




First off, you don't volunteer to be a slave. Secondly, when you sign a contract with the military, you agree to serve for a certain time period. If this tenth year is after the end of your contract, then there is no problem.

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?




I don't understand why you believe this is similar...
I would consider this a breach of contract... I consider money in return for employment a fair exchange that should be allowed between two willing parties...

What does this have to do with whether or not a man's life may be possessed?




Both situations are breaches of contract. The man signed a contract that he would serve in the armed forces for X number of years. Obviously he did not complete these years, so he is liable for this.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427750 - 01/05/07 01:58 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them?




Sure. Fuck those corporate cunts.


--------------------
Space is the Place


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427753 - 01/05/07 01:59 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

I have a feeling you people would be spouting different rhetoric if it was the government breaking the contract. Say the government just decided out of nowhere that they were not going to pay a theoretical soldier, breaking the contract after he had invested a great amount of his time in the armed forces. What would you say then?




I would support the individual over the machine the same way I am now. My belief system isn't based in a belief in contracts it's based in the belief that the military, as an institution, is evil. I will always side against the military and I don't care if you can line it up in a way that makes me seem inconsistent.




The military, like any other institution, is not inherently evil. It's the way it is used which can be evil.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427756 - 01/05/07 02:00 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them?




Sure. Fuck those corporate cunts.




So, your view on life is that anyone with more power than you is either evil or a cunt?


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427758 - 01/05/07 02:00 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




Because his intrinsic right to self-sovereignty is infinitely more meaningful than some lame-ass government 'contract'.




Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them? Should people be able to break contracts willy-nilly after they sign into them because they realize afterwards that it wasn't a good decision? The man made a life decision that he obviously did not think long enough about and it's coming to bite him in the ass now.




You are avoiding the issue quite severely.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SIGN YOUR LIFE AWAY. Period.
Owing money is different, if you failed to return a debt you would be committing a form of theft (in my opinion)... and that would be viable territory for legal repercussions...

But I do not believe you can steal your own life from someone else...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427761 - 01/05/07 02:01 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427768 - 01/05/07 02:04 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

That's just picking apart my language and a very obvious point to make but still I'll stand by my statement. If something or someone only does bad things then that person or thing is bad. Weapons are bad, ok? Just because you can hammer a sword into a plow doesn't make it any less a sword.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427772 - 01/05/07 02:06 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Where are the limits here?

Can the government provide us with water or electricity in exchange for our life signed away?

Land?

Air?

The right to live?

We need to improve our definitions of slavery... your government is pushing your people farther and farther into it using insidious economic and political methods... 5/6 Americans have less money that the previous generation... you have lost the right to privacy in your communication networks... when you have no more ability to move or breath in your land, yet you are technically free... what does that make you?


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #6427774 - 01/05/07 02:06 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Weapons are not bad. The people who use them to hurt others are. An inanimate object can not be bad or good.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427775 - 01/05/07 02:07 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them?




Sure. Fuck those corporate cunts.




So, your view on life is that anyone with more power than you is either evil or a cunt?




No. Just those that try to use their power to widen my sphincter. CC companies evil cunts? Fuck yaeh. In a word 'usury'.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427778 - 01/05/07 02:08 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Weapons are not bad. The people who use them to hurt others are. An inanimate object can not be bad or good.




Yawn


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427781 - 01/05/07 02:08 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.




If a man is about to die, and cannot pay to save his life, may another man buy him the cure in exchange for 100 years of service?

Where are the limits?


--------------------
Know your self.
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427789 - 01/05/07 02:10 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

In a sense, you already do sign your life away for those things all the time. To be able to afford those utilities, you go to work. This is not going to change.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427796 - 01/05/07 02:12 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
You are not stealing your life, but the services you promised to provide for a certain length of time.




If a man is about to die, and cannot pay to save his life, may another man buy him the cure in exchange for 100 years of service?

Where are the limits?




If you feel your life is worth living under whatever terms are set in that contract, then yes.

the limits are set when there is physical coercion involved which forces someone to sign a contract. When a non-consenting party signs a contract, it is going too far.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427799 - 01/05/07 02:13 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Well, guys, I'm off to the shower and then the casino. It was great debating with you.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: Redstorm]
    #6427807 - 01/05/07 02:15 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Well, as long as you realize what you're saying...

According to your beliefs you may have cotton fields full of men who may never, ever leave... simply because they once wrote their name on a paper...

This is a frightening idea to me...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427811 - 01/05/07 02:16 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Yeah, you too. It's worth seeing what you have to say even if I disagree with it! :thumbup:


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427864 - 01/05/07 02:33 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Who would sign a contract to pick cotton and never leave?

When you sign a contract to the military it is a contract to serve your country for 4 years. They make this VERY CLEAR. You are not in any way signing your "life" over to them. They make it very clear they you may risk or loose your life. My grandfather served in WW2 and he still has his "life" and is actually proud of his time served. I understand that you may not agree with the war in Iraq... which is why you would not sign a 4 year contract with the military when the war is still going on.

If you do not want to go to Iraq... don't join the military. Its that simple. This man should have thought about his choice more carefully obviously.


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OfflinemndfreezeMDiscordReddit
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6427912 - 01/05/07 02:50 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
It certainly does not. People choose to relinquish things they own everyday: money, property, and rights. If you foolish enough to sign over your life, why is this any different from any other sort of property?




Because his intrinsic right to self-sovereignty is infinitely more meaningful than some lame-ass government 'contract'.




Should I refuse to pay my credit card bills because I feel my belongings are mine and that the CC companies have no legitimate stake in them? Should people be able to break contracts willy-nilly after they sign into them because they realize afterwards that it wasn't a good decision? The man made a life decision that he obviously did not think long enough about and it's coming to bite him in the ass now.




You are avoiding the issue quite severely.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SIGN YOUR LIFE AWAY. Period.
Owing money is different, if you failed to return a debt you would be committing a form of theft (in my opinion)... and that would be viable territory for legal repercussions...

But I do not believe you can steal your own life from someone else...




not performing you work duties on a contract *IS* theft. You *ARE* stealing money from the institution, corporate or government, that you contracted with to do X labor or job for X money. He *WAS* getting paid, and he did BREACH his contract.

I contract in the IT industry for a living, its the same damn shit. Just because its the 'army' doesnt make it legally or morally any different. If you dont want the job, you dont take the contract.


--------------------
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quote]Urb said:
I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..




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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Man refuses to go to Iraq: Poll [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #6428884 - 01/05/07 08:29 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I don't think a human being should be allowed to sign their life away in a contract niteowl. My point of view is that simple. I consider that slavery and I think it should be made illegal.




You have a very strange definition of slavery. Read some history for a better definition of "slavery". Volunteering to be in the military is not slavery. The people who go in the military do it of their own free will. There is no coercion involved.

How can you claim that being a volunteer is the same as slavery???


Weather or not you believe it is right for a person to volunteer for the military is irrelevant. It is a fact that people can volunteer for service in the military. They can even sign up for a 2 year tour rather than a 4 year tour. This guy knew this when he joined the military.


Quote:

I know you think you own that man until you "let go of his balls", I don't think you do. I think he owns himself. I'm sorry you can't understand my point of view.




I never said that "I" owned anyone.

I'm sorry that you cant understand simple contract laws.


Quote:

Making the statement that my point of view is 'ignorant' is a very good representation of the sort of person you are, and the sort of person that considers a man's life a piece of property.




Your point of view that a volunteer is the same as slavery is .....I G N O R A N T

Pick up a dictionary and do some reading before you start making up your own definitions for commonly used words.

Quote:

It is painfully clear that I have a well formulated opinion, regardless of how it agrees with yours. Your insulting nature reveals the vulnerability of your argument in any context other than force.




Your are entitled to you opinion. It is far from well informed though. You cant even grasp some simple definitions such as volunteer and slavery

Quote:

PS: I'm afraid to hear your definition of a volunteer... I imagine it would have some interesting parallels with Bush's definition of torture...




:whatever:

Dude you are grasping at straws my friend. How can you make the claim now that a volunteer is the same as torture?

You are living in a fantasy world and it will come crashing down around you one day.

Quote:

And by the way, what you said about him deserving a dishonorable discharge- I agree completely, that's exactly what he should get. And he should be proud to be discharged from an organization guilty of such disgusting crimes.




Man he volunteered to serve in this organization.

Quote:

He owns his own life... thus he may relinquish ownership of it?
Your argument fails immediately.




If you own a car don't you have the right to relinquish ownership of it......even if it is for a weekend?


Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
According to your beliefs you may have cotton fields full of men who may never, ever leave... simply because they once wrote their name on a paper...

This is a frightening idea to me...




Redstorm never said that. This is another of your "strawman contracts" that you so love to make up. Joining the military is not a lifetime deal, you only sign up for 2 or 4 years......not forever.
:rolleyes:








Quote:

Granny said:
not performing you work duties on a contract *IS* theft.  You *ARE* stealing money from the institution, corporate or government, that you contracted with to do X labor or job for X money.  He *WAS* getting paid, and he did BREACH his contract.

I contract in the IT industry for a living, its the same damn shit.  Just because its the 'army' doesn't make it legally or morally any different.  If you don't want the job, you don't take the contract.




:congrats:


Some people are confusing supporting the government and breach of contract

This guy signed a 4 year contract and he should do his time weather it is in the Job Core or the US military.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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