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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6423374 - 01/03/07 11:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The UN Charter specifically prohibits invasions that are "inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations" I'm guessing this is what Disco Cat is referring to, as the US is not a signatory to the ICC treaty, and does not accept ICJ juristiction.

As a result, the only treaty the US could possibly be violating would be the UN charter.

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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Economist]
    #6423380 - 01/03/07 11:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

fuck the UN.. we were one of the only countries attacked.. why the fuck would anyone else back an invasion?

btw.. heres a list of countries that are members of the UN

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

look at all these 3-world terd countries.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6423382 - 01/03/07 11:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't miss that line, it says "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice"

Which means they will only be obeyed according to what is specified in the "regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice," which outlines the limitations of obediance to the Pred, and makes clear when his orders, or any superior's orders must be disobeyed.

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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6423386 - 01/03/07 11:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
This is the word for word US military oath:

"I, {insert name here}, do solemnly swear, (or affirm), that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. (Note that the last line is not required to be said if the speaker has a personal or moral objection) "

There is nothing about obeying the President, who is under the Constitution himself.





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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6423390 - 01/03/07 11:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

just stop.. its clear you dont know what you're talking about. you just keep contradicting yourself...

stop googling information and taking it from the first available source.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Dark_Star]
    #6423410 - 01/03/07 11:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Much respect to that man. :thumbup: :heartpump:




May I ask you why you respect someone who is dishonest and is of the opinion that he does not need to work to be paid with tax money? You are paying this man to refuse to do his job... yet you respect him for fleecing taxpayers?

It's one thing to respect an anti-war viewpoint... it's entirely another thing to respect a man because he is in the middle of an action which knowingly defies even the most sleazily underdeveloped of work ethics. This man's sense of earning his wages is even worse than the absolute most horrid stereotype of shiftless immigrant workers.

His expectations are the same as those of people who expect to live off of welfare so that they don't need to work. "I'll take money from the government, and do nothing whatsoever to earn it!". I don't give a shit whether he wants to fight... it was his choice and he's bound to his word... no matter how worthless his word actually is. Reneging on a contract should not be admirable to anyone. He is going to receive a well-deserved dishonorable discharge that will rightfully tarnish his reputation for the rest of his life, and that's if he's lucky.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing

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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Konnrade]
    #6423414 - 01/03/07 11:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

thank you! another person who sees my point

dont forget his 6 year prison sentence.


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OfflineDrunkenAttempt
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6423420 - 01/03/07 11:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Banez said:
fuck the UN.. we were one of the only countries attacked.. why the fuck would anyone else back an invasion?

btw.. heres a list of countries that are members of the UN

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

look at all these 3-world terd countries.





lol alot of them joined in 1945...probably scared of the Americans and the atom bombs and didn't wanna be the next Hiroshima. :mushroom2:


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6423425 - 01/03/07 11:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

as funny as that would be.. im sure it had much more to do with the end of world war II.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6423531 - 01/04/07 12:34 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Banez said:
thank you! another person who sees my point

dont forget his 6 year prison sentence.




Well, I strongly disagree with the prison sentence. That is overly harsh punishment.

All he deserves is a dishonorable discharge and perhaps a fine and/or community service sentence. He's not taken anything away from anyone which amounts to anywhere near 6 years of a human life. Jail time should be reserved to serious crimes. When you reneg on a contract with a civilian, the victim is entitled to nothing more than filing a lawsuit... the government is not entitled to any special priveleges of excessive vengeance.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing

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Invisibleblink
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... *DELETED* [Re: belligerent]
    #6423671 - 01/04/07 01:20 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by blinkidiot

Reason for deletion: Im sorry



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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: blink]
    #6423738 - 01/04/07 02:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

omfgicbie

let me break that down.. "oh my fucking god i can believe it either"


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6423978 - 01/04/07 09:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
May I ask you why you respect someone who is dishonest and is of the opinion that he does not need to work to be paid with tax money? You are paying this man to refuse to do his job... yet you respect him for fleecing taxpayers?

It's one thing to respect an anti-war viewpoint... it's entirely another thing to respect a man because he is in the middle of an action which knowingly defies even the most sleazily underdeveloped of work ethics. This man's sense of earning his wages is even worse than the absolute most horrid stereotype of shiftless immigrant workers.

His expectations are the same as those of people who expect to live off of welfare so that they don't need to work. "I'll take money from the government, and do nothing whatsoever to earn it!". I don't give a shit whether he wants to fight... it was his choice and he's bound to his word... no matter how worthless his word actually is. Reneging on a contract should not be admirable to anyone. He is going to receive a well-deserved dishonorable discharge that will rightfully tarnish his reputation for the rest of his life, and that's if he's lucky.





But he has been stripped of all the money he would have received for hours he did not actually work, and he is facing 6 years of jailtime on top of it all.
The only way people could claim that he is abusing the system is if he hadn't known what the repercussions of his resignation would be and if he had been expecting to be let go without punishment.
But of course he had a clear idea what was going to happen.




Quote:

Banez said:
just stop.. its clear you dont know what you're talking about. you just keep contradicting yourself...
stop googling information and taking it from the first available source.




Please don't be a dink.

I've noticed that it's the Enlistment Oath that carries the President line, and the Office Oath that does not.
However, nothing is changed since it does not simply say "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me," it says "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

The Constitution still comes first.

I've found the connection that makes refusal to participating in the war a responsibility:

"Under the Nuremberg Principles, you have an obligation NOT to follow the orders of leaders who are preparing crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. We are all bound by what U.S. Chief Prosecutor Robert K. Jackson declared in 1948: [T]he very essence of the [Nuremberg] Charter is that individuals have intentional duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience imposed by the individual state." At the Tokyo War Crimes trial, it was further declared "[A]nyone with knowledge of illegal activity and an opportunity to do something about it is a potential criminal under international law unless the person takes affirmative measures to prevent commission of the crimes."

The treaties which the invasion of Iraq is said to have conflict with are:

"The Hague Convention on Land Warfare of 1899, which was reaffirmed by the U.S. at the 1946 Nuremberg International Military Tribunals; · Resolution on the Non-Use of Nuclear Weapons and Prevention of Nuclear War, adopted UN General Assembly, Dec 12, 1980; · Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; December 9, 1948, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the UN General Assembly; · Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, Adopted on August 12, 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War; · Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques, 1108 U.N.T.S. 151, Oct. 5, 1978; · The Charter of the United Nations; · The Nuremberg Principles, which define as a crime against peace, "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for accomplishment of any of the forgoing."


You can read some of these treaties here: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm

Source: http://www.counterpunch.org/mosqueda02272003.html

Edited by Disco Cat (01/04/07 09:09 AM)

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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6424252 - 01/04/07 11:24 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

you are a terd.. and have no idea what you are talking about...

where did you read he was being stripped of his bonuses and money?.. i know for a FACT this is a lie.. again.. the FACTS.. 50% of your bonus is gaurenteed and recieved after basic training and can not be taken away for ANY reason... even if you piss dirty for coke or friendly fire.

same deal with a monthly salary.

now what they MAY do, and there isnt enough information available to determine this.. instead of sending his ass to prison for 6 years (which they wont carry out, the gov't just wont do that).. they will probably give him plea bargain.. in which he will have the OPTION to serve NO time, have an dishonorable discharge, and in return, return his bonus.

he will not be stripped of it like you are indicating, they CANT do that.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6424268 - 01/04/07 11:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I see your dinkiness didn't wear off overnight.

Quote:

SITES: Tell me about the repercussions you face in this court martial.


WATADA: Well I think with the charges that have been applied to me and referred over to a general court martial, I'm facing six years maximum confinement, dishonorable discharge from the army, and loss of all pay and allowances.


STES: Are you ready to deal with all those consequences with this decision?


WATADA: Sure, and I think that's the decision that I made almost a year ago, in January, when I submitted my original letter of resignation. I knew that possibly some of the things that I stated in that letter, including my own beliefs, that there were repercussions from that. Yet I felt it was a sacrifice, and it was a necessary sacrifice, to make. And I feel the same today.






If you want it straight on paper, the man did what was right. If the ideals in those papers don't mean anything to you and it's all interpretation, then nothing really means anything, and your version of what's right is only an opinion.

Edited by Disco Cat (01/04/07 11:38 AM)

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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6424280 - 01/04/07 11:37 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

ok be rational here.. do you honestly think this guy will serve 6 years?.. fuck no.. some murderers dont even serve that long

and i guess you'd have to be military to understand what is meant by "loss of all pay and allowances".. allowances are in no way bonuses.. allowances are for housing and food.. (BAH).. and "loss of pay" refers to the loss of the remaining pay on his contract... they arent going to go back and take money from him that he has already earned.


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6424286 - 01/04/07 11:37 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"loss" refers to future income and allowances... not previously earned.. i guess i could have stated it like that.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Banez]
    #6424289 - 01/04/07 11:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Wait.. so you're calling the guy an ignorant bastard piece of shit because he refuses to go halfway across the world and put his life on the line for a cause he doesn't believe in? If you're so fucking gung-ho to throw your life away for the military why don't you fucking go over there and do it? Maybe you should learn the definition of a true patriot and that isn't a country of mindless sheep..

Respect to that man.


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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: Shroomism]
    #6424292 - 01/04/07 11:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Wait.. so you're calling the guy an ignorant bastard piece of shit because he refuses to go halfway across the world and put his life on the line for a cause he doesn't believe in? If you're so fucking gung-ho to throw your life away for the military why don't you fucking go over there and do it? Maybe you should learn the definition of a true patriot and that isn't a country of mindless sheep..




Ha, Banez is actually enlisting.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Man Refuses To Go to Iraq... [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #6424297 - 01/04/07 11:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That sucks


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