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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: GazzBut]
    #6483230 - 01/21/07 04:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
You do realsie you could add christianity to these statements dont you?





Christianity is a religion of peace. Look! Its a miracle! Praise Jesus!



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Offlinewilshire
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Alex213]
    #6485125 - 01/22/07 09:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

In every muslim country on the face of the earth over the last 10 years a grand total of two gays have been hanged for being gay.

i said there was persecution, not genocide. a 2005 hanging of two men for nothing other than being gay does not indicate a pattern of persecution? there is no persecution against gays in iran, but they sometimes hang a couple of 'em for the hell of it? come on alex...


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: wilshire]
    #6485361 - 01/22/07 10:43 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Most if not all Muslim countries are not going around executing people for being gay. Gays are persecuted though in most Muslim countries, but to various degrees. Much of it is not far from how gays were treated in the United States up until the 1960's.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Basilides]
    #6486229 - 01/22/07 03:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

the last time faith-based oppression in the west looked anything like the muslim world was several hundred years ago, before the enlightenment, something the muslim world sadly missed out on.

when was the last time someone in a non-muslim country was executed for renouncing their religion?


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: wilshire]
    #6486926 - 01/22/07 06:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Up until the late 60's, gays in America for the most part were consistently subjected to police beatings, jizya-style taxes and public humiliation. Which is basically how they're treated today in the Muslim world (not the widespread genocide/inquisition you seem to assume). Don't forget racism in the South too. Local law enforcement would outrageously turn a blind eye to lynching, and lynchers who were tried got off most of the time because of all white juries (with blacks being banned from duty). Don't think America has a neat and "enlightened" history. There was much blatant oppression and moral failures up until around 40 years ago.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Basilides]
    #6486980 - 01/22/07 07:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Two things
From wilshire:
"faith-based oppression"
Title of thread:
"The Threat Posed by Islam"


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Basilides]
    #6487006 - 01/22/07 07:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I will agree on some of your points, however, the Islamic ideology is still in the stone age, compared to the USA in the 1950s:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378314145&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



Saudi court sentences rape victim to 90 lashes
By DPA


A Saudi court has sentenced a gang rape victim to 90 lashes of the whip because she was alone in a car with a man to whom she was not married.

The sentence was passed at the end of a trial in which the al- Qateef high criminal court convicted four Saudis convicted of the rape, sentencing them to prison terms and a total of 2,230 lashes.

The four, all married, were sentenced respectively to five years and 1,000 lashes, four years and 800 lashes, four years and 350 lashes, and one year and 80 lashes.

A fifth, married, man who was stated to have filmed the rape on his mobile phone still faces investigation. Two others alleged to have taken part in the rape evaded capture.

Saudi courts take marital status into account in sexual crimes. A male friend of the rape victim was also sentenced to 90 lashes for being alone with her in the car.

The court heard that the victim and her friend were followed by the assailants to their car, kidnapped and taken to a remote farm, where the raping occurred.

The victim was quoted by Okaz newspaper as saying she had expected harsher penalties for the assailants, especially as they had pleaded not guilty.

Her husband and family said that they would appeal to the court Saturday for harsher penalties for a crime which has shocked public opinion in Saudi Arabia and been the subject of months of debate


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6487852 - 01/22/07 10:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Your point... ?


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6487950 - 01/22/07 11:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Saudi Arabia is hardly a consensus of the politics of the entire Islamic world, in my opinion. We should also be taking in consideration of South East Asia and North Africa. Indonesia, with the most Muslims of any country, recently had Playboy magazine introduced to their culture, although with some controversy.

Anyway, this has been a very long thread. It seems some are mostly impatient with Islam's transition into modernity, and some might see it as impossible. But with the small improvements in recent years such as anti-fundamentalist lobby groups, Britain's fierce moderate movement, the Shi'ite participation in Iraqi democracy, Cedar Springs etc., the Muslim world is gradually embracing the inevitable but slowly. It is not an intractable situation. Islam has existed in the past without intense politicization and it can exist as such again.

Ultimately, people are gonna have to have patience, because it's not like anything can be done outside of neutralizing terrorist threats when they arise. Islam is a rather permanent part of humanity at this point, so it's likely counterproductive to suggest the religion is completely out of control when we know very well it's with us to stay.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Basilides]
    #6488625 - 01/23/07 04:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Indonesia, with the most Muslims of any country, recently had Playboy magazine introduced to their culture, although with some controversy.




Some controversy? Heh... the protests were so nasty that the owner of the building evicted Playboy Indonesia out of security concerns. (In other words, you get rid of them or we kill you and your family.) Playboy is now located in Bali, a Hindu area rather than Muslim area. Even the models that have appeared in Playboy Indonesia, fully clothed, have been charged with violating indecency rules.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineInFest
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Seuss]
    #6489503 - 01/23/07 01:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

If some of you would read the qu'ran, the nature of the Muslim faith may become slightly clearer to you. The notion that Christianity is even comparable to the things that have been done by Muslim countries is simply outrageous.We are dealing in the here and now, not the past, though some people's description of what happened is very far off, Mitch like many events in history are skewed to promote political agendas.


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One Day at a Time

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: wilshire]
    #6491795 - 01/24/07 07:10 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
In every muslim country on the face of the earth over the last 10 years a grand total of two gays have been hanged for being gay.

i said there was persecution, not genocide. a 2005 hanging of two men for nothing other than being gay does not indicate a pattern of persecution? there is no persecution against gays in iran, but they sometimes hang a couple of 'em for the hell of it? come on alex...




I'm not sure what the hanging of 2 men out of 1.2 billion in the last 10 years proves to be honest. If it's persecution it's certainly a pretty relaxed form of persecution. If they were hanging a thousand a month I'd consider that persecution.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Alex213]
    #6491818 - 01/24/07 07:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not sure what the hanging of 2 men out of 1.2 billion in the last 10 years proves to be honest.

Alex213, the only reason there aren't more hangings is because people living under Islamic rule know the consequences of getting out of line. Women living under the boot of Islam are careful to follow the rules, behave subservient to males, and wear a hijab even if they don't want to because they know they'll be beaten senseless or raped and blamed for it or even hanged if they don't comply. It's self-censored behavior resulting from systematic, institutionalized oppression.

It's hilarious to me that at every point where you demand evidence, it's presented, only to be dismissed as an isolated incident by you. Then you demand more evidence. When yet more is presented, the cycle repeats: "that one doesn't count either, gimme another one".

It's like 'winning' the debate and remaining politically correct is more important to you than trying to understand the truth. Truth is sometimes ugly, but it's still the truth. I don't get this dogmatic aversion to facing reality just because it doesn't jive with the forced idea that Islam is a peaceful religion.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Diploid]
    #6492245 - 01/24/07 11:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Alex213, The only reason there aren't more hangings is because people living under Islamic rule know the consequences of getting out of line.

Nah, if you'd read the thread you'd hear arabs living in the most extreme muslim state on earth (Saudi Arabia) saying the idea of being hanged for being gay is laughable.

It's hilarious to me that at every point where you demand evidence, it's presented, only to be dismissed as an isolated incident by you

Are you denying there are 2 cases of gays being hanged out of 1.2 billion muslims? If you are then please provide evidence of all the other hangings you know about. Otherwise accept you are wrong.

It's like 'winning' the debate and remaining politically correct is more important to you than trying to understand the truth

Forget the tiresome personal attack and just give me evidence. Prove to me that gays are being hanged for being gay. It really shouldn't be hard to do. Gays are cruising up and down streets in Saudi Arabia every night. Unless they have the power of invisibility there should be countless thousands of them being hanged. Why arn't there?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Alex213]
    #6492331 - 01/24/07 11:33 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

please provide evidence of...

It's your turn:

How about instead of demanding yet more evidence of Islamic oppression, you prove that "Gays are cruising up and down streets in Saudi Arabia every night".

Link me to ONE web site for all those gay bars in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country.

Can't find any, eh? Figures.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Alex213]
    #6492452 - 01/24/07 12:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Let's inject some facts into here:

From Wikipedia's article, 'Gay rights in Saudi Arabia'.

Quote:

Gay rights are not recognized in Saudi Arabia and homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. However, there exists an underground gay community. The treatment of homosexuals has prompted criticism from international human rights organizations, but the government defends its actions as being mandated by Islam.




Quote:

Criminal Code
All criminal and civil law is based on an interpretation of Wahabi Islam. Foreigners should not expect their nationality to grant them immunity from the local law. Furthermore with the exception of commercial law, most of the legal code is unwritten and left up to the discretion of the Islamic judges.

All sexual activity outside of a traditional heterosexual marriage is a crime, some of these crimes carry a maximum penalty of execution. As none of the criminal code is written down, the precise punishments for being convicted of homosexuality or sodomy varies but will likely include imprisonment.

People accused of homosexuality may be sexually abused by the police or sent to a mental institution for treatment. The government still beheads a handful of people each year for engaging in homosexual relations between consenting adults in private.

Criminal trials may occur in secret, and defendants may not have access to a translator or a lawyer. Prisoners are sometimes subject to cruel treatment.

See also:

Guardian: Saudi Arabia's tough line on gays




Quote:

Officially, there is no gay or lesbian community because homosexuality is illegal. The strict laws against homosexuality stifle any overtly public gay and lesbian community or gay rights movement. Only the underground Green Party of Saudi Arabia has endorsed the gay rights movement and called for greater public openness about sexual orientation and gender identity issues.

In 2000 the government sentenced nine Saudi men to extensive prison terms with lashing for engaging in cross-dressing and homosexual relations. [5]. That same year the government executed three Yemeni male workers for homosexuality and child molestation [6]. Some officials within the Saudi Arabian embassy in Washington D.C. have implied that homosexuals are only put to death when found to be convicted of child molestation, murder or engaging in anything deemed to be a form of political advocacy [7]. For example, as recently as April 2005 the government convicted over a hundred men of homosexuality, but none were sentenced to be executed. All those men were given prison sentences with flogging because they were at a private party that was either a same-sex wedding ceremony or a birthday party [8]. Yet, a gay couple was sentenced to death for homosexuality and allegedly killing a man who was blackmailing them for homosexuality.

However despite this, there have been some reports of crusing areas for gay men and several gay shops in Saudi Arabia [9]. Many Saudi gays have said that media stories of homosexuals being sentenced to death have been over exaggerated [10].




So, basically, while it is possible for homosexuals to be executed in Saudi Arabia, it is rare unless there are several elements of various criminality attached to the original allegation. Western homosexuals are almsot never punished by the Saudi government, and are usually deported most of the time. There is an underground gay scene in Saudi Arabia that even extends to private gay weddings and gay friendly stores and venues, but this is usually denied by the government and the Saudi religious bloc.

Now, of Muslim countries who make no secret of executing gays:

Somalia, Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Yemen. All other Islamic countries do not actively executed gays, but some punish homosexuality with up to a decade in prison.

Of Muslim countries that do not outlaw homosexuality at all:

Egypt (however male prostitution is severely punished), Indonesia, Iraq (due to no law written), the Palestinian territories (although risk of mob justice), Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijin, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Turkey.

These countries for the most part either view dealing with homosexuality in criminal law as a waste of resources or time, or in the case of Turkey and some former Soviet states, it is the result of acknowledging the international standard of human rights.

While most Muslim countries outlaw homosexuality on some degree, many of these countries either rarely enforce the laws on their books, or the law itself is ridden with intentional, progressive loopholes as is the case with some Muslim dominated African countries. In the perspective of the third world versus the first world countries in terms of gay rights, the third world in general, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, has difficulty upholding gay and human rights in general. Gay scenes, whether public or cladestine, exist in virtually every country in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_homosexuality_laws.PNG


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world



Just keepin' em honest


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Alex213]
    #6493170 - 01/24/07 03:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not sure what the hanging of 2 men out of 1.2 billion in the last 10 years proves to be honest.

there are 1.2 billion admitted men who have sex with men in the muslim world? what?

alex, your denial of islamic persecution in the middle east is just bizarre, and i really have no desire to "debate" you about it any more. it's not a matter of politics. it's just a simple observable fact.

earlier in this thread, you (i'm guessing accidentally) alluded to the idea that muslims have a different concept of human rights and liberty than the liberal west. let's just leave it at that.


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OfflineHashishi
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: wilshire]
    #6493278 - 01/24/07 04:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Islamic countries are hardly the only entities perpetrating humanitarian abuses.

If they just shrugged their shoulders in a non-committal manner and smiled a healthy PC smile like the rest of the world does before coninuing to wire genitalia to car batteries there wouldn't be so much of a kerfuffle.

This whole Sharia law situation just isn't doing them any favours.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Hashishi]
    #6493436 - 01/24/07 05:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hashishi said:
Islamic countries are hardly the only entities perpetrating humanitarian abuses.





So that somehow justifies the human rights abuses?

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: The Threat Posed by Islam [Re: Redstorm]
    #6493879 - 01/24/07 07:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

See, they're supporting the Islamic terrorists.

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