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Offlinethink_about_it
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Cracking caps, dry looking casing...
    #6397215 - 12/22/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Hello,

1. Was wondering what I can do about a dry-looking casing once there are already pins and fruits growing?

2. Also, I understand that cracking/spliting caps is due to low humidity. Is this the case?

3. If a cap splits should you just harvest it right then and there, or should you let it grow? (Usually the cap splitting causes the veil to break, so, shouldn't you just harvest it?)

4. Here are some pics. What can I do to save these? (notice the crack in the cap on the big one, and the unhealthiness of some of the other ones):






Edited by think_about_it (12/22/06 03:07 PM)

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397234 - 12/22/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

1.  you can mist your casing with fruits and pins on it.  just mist gentle (never point mister at it, let the mist drift down) and mist frequently.  far more effective to give frequent light waterings than infrequent heavy waterings.  fan afterwards to start the evaporation process.  getting mist on fruits and pins is no problem, but you don't want to soak them.

2.  caps splitting and scaling can be due to humidity.  more or less the scaling points to humidity problems (where caps actually seem to split on top, sometimes you'll see mushrooms that looks like somebody carved an "X" into the cap... that's scaling, and a humidity problem.)  caps that split like in your picture can simply be a genetic trait, combined with the fact that maybe they grew a little too quick for their own good.  nothing to worry about really.

3.  let it grow.  the viel does break early but it still follows a "normal" schedule when it comes to sporulation... pick it with the others


sometimes a cracked cap means the fruit is just growing unusually fast, and unusually large. :smile:

4.  now that i look at your pictures, i think i might see that scaling effect on the fruit towards the bottom of the first picture... so maybe you've got a humidity issue after all.  to save it, just get on that misting to bring your casing moisture content up.  keep up with the fresh air.  adjust your humidity if you can, obviously depends on your fruiting chamber what your options are.

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Offlinethink_about_it
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: creamcorn]
    #6397276 - 12/22/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, with regards to the misting, what would be better:

1. Misting with pH 7.5 balanced distilled water.
2. H202 mixed with distilled water.
3. Plain distilled water.

How often should you mist if you think the casing appears a little dry? Then, once things seem decent again, how often after that?

Thanks!

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397299 - 12/22/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

believe it or not, the best thing to mist with is plain old tap water (assuming you have "average" quality tap water.)

it contains small levels of chlorine that keeps the water clean and makes it safe for you to drink - and has the same effect on your crops.  commercial growers actually chlorinate their mist water.  very low concentrations of chlorine (like found in tap water) is enough to keep contaminates at bay, and does absolutely 0 harm to your mushroom crop.

the "use 1:10 peroxide:water in your mist bottle" idea is pretty much bunk.  some people swear by it, i swear they don't know better.  H2O2 breaks down very rapidly in the presence of light, air, and that process speeds up when its agitated.  by the time it leaves the nozzle of your mist bottle, its nearly gone.  wasteful IMO.  do a controlled experiement, put a good luck charm in a mist bottle, and compare it to a mist bottle with H2O2... i bet they'll be equally effective. :smile:

mist as often as you need.  might be several times a day at first.  you have to observe your casing layer and "listen" to what it tells you.  you want it near saturation - meaning, its holding nearly as much water as it can.  what you want to avoid is getting it muddy - no puddles, you don't want it matted down, or turning to mush.  you want to retain the airy and crumbly texture.  enough mist so that its glistening with water like dew glistening on the grass in the morning is ideal.  so at first it will take lots of mistings to catch up, then back off and mist when needed.

it looks liek you've got a 50/50 style casing on there?  peat will be brown when its dry, and almost black in color when properly moisturized... so the color of the casing tells you a good deal too.  (straight verm won't change colors, so its harder to judge.)

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OfflineWillsk8t4shrooms
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397303 - 12/22/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Any would work, But I suggest using distilled water


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: Willsk8t4shrooms]
    #6397478 - 12/22/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

any water will work but spring water is best. Distilled water is not recomended


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397507 - 12/22/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

think_about_it said:
Ok, with regards to the misting, what would be better:

1. Misting with pH 7.5 balanced distilled water.
2. H202 mixed with distilled water.
3. Plain distilled water.

How often should you mist if you think the casing appears a little dry? Then, once things seem decent again, how often after that?

Thanks!



Distilled water works best it is "clean" meaning sterile right from the start. Misting should be at least 5-6 times a day with a 15-20sec. fanning before each misting. GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: hyphae]
    #6397561 - 12/22/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Distilled water works best it is "clean" meaning sterile right from the start. Misting should be at least 5-6 times a day with a 15-20sec. fanning before each misting. GL




hyphae... while it pains me to disagree... i gotta... it gets confusing when totally opposite advice gets offered!

sure distilled water is "clean" but that's as far as the assumption can go. its not sterile... distillation is a process of boiling water and collecting the steam. sure boiling kills most everything, but it is not sterilization at boiling temps. it is possible for heat resistant organisms to still be present. obvious reason we use a PC. its a long shot i know, but all that aside there's absolutely no garuntee its been bottled in sterility either. some may, some may not be, if i had to bet, that 99 cent gallon jug of distilled water at the grocery store probably wasn't. if anything you're more likely to find sterile spring water, as its common industrial practice to use a formal sterilization process on "natural" water to be sure there's no disease carrying pathogens. just don't want somebody making an assumption that distilled water is sterile, and go use it for something critical like syringe prep without heat treating it first, they might be unpleasantly surprised.

besides that issue of semantics really, i still don't see how its a concern in a fruiting environment. your fruiting chamber isn't sterile. your casing layer isn't sterile. what's it matter if the water is sterile? clean is good procedure but that's as far as it needs to go. there's potential contamination biding its time all over your projects - proper pH balancing of casings, and moving, fresh air are your defenses to keep it from thriving. misting water simply isn't a vector for contamination.

long story short you can't go wrong with any of the above water really... just a small detail. i still prefer tap for the reasons i described - not to mention its cheaper or free all together... save yourself money and effort!

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Offlinethink_about_it
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: creamcorn]
    #6397641 - 12/22/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

"hyphae": Fan BEFORE misting? Or did you mean AFTER?

"creamcorn": Thanks for your detailed advice. And yes, the casing is a 50/50 with hydrated lime.

I will try misting the casing layer, from a distance, a few times a day (no puddles / only glistening) and see what happens.

Thanks again everyone!

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397688 - 12/22/06 06:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Every now and again I get that as well,I agree with Creamcorn when he says that unless its happening to most of them it is because they grew so fast,think stretch makes

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: Blutjager]
    #6397692 - 12/22/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

O and as far as the other topic at hand in this thread,I always use tap water for misting,works great for me :rockon:

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Offlinethink_about_it
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397695 - 12/22/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, Blutjager, but what would make them "grow too fast for their own good", as it were?

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397713 - 12/22/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

think_about_it said:
Ok, Blutjager, but what would make them "grow too fast for their own good", as it were?




Good genetics maybe ?? I'm not really 100% sure,if it is a humidity issue it would happen to all or at least most of them but if it only happens to one I would think that this particular may be genetically predisposed to fast growth,I would clone it and see :hehehe:

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6397715 - 12/22/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

think_about_it said:
Ok, Blutjager, but what would make them "grow too fast for their own good", as it were?




warm temperatures and/or genetic predisposition

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Offlinethink_about_it
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: creamcorn]
    #6397866 - 12/22/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

warm temperatures and/or genetic predisposition




What exactly are "warm temperatures"?

My temps have been between 70 - 75 at all times.

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: think_about_it]
    #6398724 - 12/23/06 05:49 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Distilled works fine and because of the process it is very clean water certainly clean enough for our purposes. I always mist afterwards why evaporated any of that added moisture by fanning, it just makes mycosense consider it fine tuning your skill. cc the reason we use a PC is for cellulose substances in which penetration is required boiling water is all thats needed to sterilize it I suggest 20min for our purposes but as little as 5min will work for drinking. This has been proven and is all I have been doing as far as LC's are concerned never a contamed jar so far. Also because the "growing" environment isn't sterile doesn't mean you can add dirty water or should I say increase competitive spore loads into your environment that simply doesn'y make any mycosense bro maybe your missing the point here? We always want to strive to keep competitive spores to a minimum to get as many flushes as we can before they succumb to molds. At least this is the way I see things from my mycologists background. Remember guys "tap water" varies greatly from region to region (fact).

Distilled water

Distilled water is water that has had virtually all of its impurities as well as electrolytes removed through distillation (that is, boiling the water and re-condensing the steam into a clean container, thus leaving contaminants behind). It is widely used in chemical and biological laboratories. BTW store bought distilled water rarely reuse jugs so purity is of a high percentage in most areas. GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: hyphae]
    #6398731 - 12/23/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Caps split because of a lack of moisture being AVAILABLE not because they've "grown too fast for their own good" fruitbodies are like a sponge and demand more water than many of you realize much more and can easily absorb it! Mushrooms can never grow too fast for their own good understanding this in the beginning will aid in the learning process, keep an open mind and your knowledge will expand as fast as those shrooms! :wink: GL guys


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: hyphae]
    #6398834 - 12/23/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Split caps and cracked caps are two totally different phenonoma. Cracked caps are caused by lack of humidity. Split caps, as shown above are not related to humidty or moisture content.
RR


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6400316 - 12/23/06 08:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Split caps and cracked caps are two totally different phenonoma. Cracked caps are caused by lack of humidity. Split caps, as shown above are not related to humidty or moisture content.
RR




So its pretty much all genetic ??

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cracking caps, dry looking casing... [Re: Blutjager]
    #6400359 - 12/23/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Who knows. Caps tend to split sometimes. It doesn't hurt a thing. I've long felt it was from very rapid growth, but other times you can flood the substrate and get fast growth without the caps splitting.

Just remember it's a different phenomena than cracked caps which give the caps a dinosaur/reptile type look. Cracked caps are from low humidity and also really don't hurt anything. In fact, many Shiitake growers deliberately lower humidity a day or two before harvest to crack the caps. They feel it leads to a better product and in Japan, cracked cap Shiitake brings a higher price.
RR


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