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Invisibleimplicitli
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War on Terror
    #6396851 - 12/22/06 02:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Should Bush start to pull out of Iraq? It seems to me that he should never have been there, but once the decision has been made to conquer, isn't admitting defeat a frightening idea?

Somehow, the Americans, with all their superior technology and billion dollar military budgets can't stop a 'small group' of insurgents?

Somebody in the American administration must have been schooled in the Theory of War before they decided to make a 'shock and awe' show of might, right? So where is the intelligent wartime philosophy now?


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6396896 - 12/22/06 02:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know. He's fucked up the country even more so than it already was. Saying "fuck it" and leaving now would be absolutely ridiculous. He has a responsibility to fix that country, IMO. Though simply throwing more and more soldiers into there is probably not the best way to go about achieving peace.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6396986 - 12/22/06 03:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

my central question is,

does this war on terror even represent the people's vision?

we can say Americans are at war, but who are the Americans?

the people living on soil which lies within defined linguistic zones or more simply put, national borders?

are people even part of this vision? or is it consumers, citizens, tax payers, laborers, workers, job titles, and university students who are the Americans here?

where does the human being fit into this other than it being merely a vehicle for semantic mumbo jumbo?

this war on terror, this war on acts of violence, is a war that uses violence as a means, the very thing it claims to fight against.

this is not a war for peace, there is no such thing as a war for peace.

i feel that an intelligent wartime philosophy is that which strives to drop weapons and halt the system which produces the weapons.

of course, in our position as human beings so dependent on an external establishment of order to provide us food, water, and electricity, saying to drop the guns is easier said than done, especially when we are holding the guns indirectly through our consensual support of the national system.

i think we must begin to face that we never have been in control of this war for the past years and for who knows how long this war has really been going on for.

we are in fact so entirely dependent on our government that people like Bush and the ones above his ladder are able to use any step-by-step means necessary to pursue any politically motivated goals they wish.

as long as we need supermarkets and cars to keep us from drowning in this system, we are really nothing but units and numbers, sheeps and herds, tools and weapons..

as shattering as this may sound.

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


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OfflineLoverofTruth
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6397003 - 12/22/06 03:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The 'War on Terror' doesn't even make sense no matter one's political leanings yet no politician nor media pundit has challenged this. Terror is a tactic; not a group of people, a nation nor an ideology. Of course, the irony is unbelievable as warfare is a terror tactic.

As to 'winning the war in Iraq'; this is an impossibility. Why? Because there is no SPECIFIC attainable goal. How can one win a race with no finish line?

A former member on this site once predicted civil war in Iraq over four years ago. Was he psychic or a student of history? The various factions are expressing cultural hatreds handed down for many generations. An armored humvee and and M-16 will have zero calming affect (obviously it has had the opposite result) on the participant's internal mindset towards other groups unless we intend to wipe out all of the Iraqi people.

Try whacking a hornet's stick with a nest. When they become agitated, hit the hive even harder to see if that soothes them.


Edited by LoverofTruth (12/22/06 06:59 PM)


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: War on Terror [Re: LoverofTruth]
    #6397046 - 12/22/06 03:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

it is nothing new that violence only breeds more violence, as well put, even a bee hive will teach you that. :mushroom2:

to expect a culture to be 'democratized' by another is preposterous and utterly foolish, especially when using war as a pretext.

every politician knows that, every media pundit knows that,

and we know this as well, which they again know too,

which is why we are to be kept in a predictable state, and if things go even further down a road, a police state.

the war on terror is a war on us, much like the war on drugs which seems to already be so ingrained in the social fabric that people often fail to realize that they are, at the core, one and the same war.

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6397140 - 12/22/06 04:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There's enough inhumanity in Iraq that it could likely be seen from outter space. The only viable solution I personally see at the moment is dividing Iraq into 3 different nation states. It's the only way to downsize all the sectarian drama.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibleimplicitli
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Re: War on Terror [Re: Basilides]
    #6397154 - 12/22/06 04:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah. Let's draw more lines. That worked last time.

Personally, I think that I need to talk to a bunch of people who grew up in the Middle East before I could really make any suggestions as to how to fix the problem.

We were indoctrinated so differently, that I cannot even imagine comprehending the mindset of the average Iraqi.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6397193 - 12/22/06 04:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
The only viable solution I personally see at the moment is dividing Iraq into 3 different nation states. It's the only way to downsize all the sectarian drama.




Yeah, I really don't see how drawing more lines could possibly lead to peace, especially when we are the ones dividing Iraq.

They don't want us there and we don't want to be there. Yet we remain there for what?

We are all tied into this conflict because of the systems we choose to recognize, the systems of governance we grew up with and are conditioned to accept as our models of "how society works."

And when these modes become outdated, or no longer work for the common good,

just what will it take to not only wake us up, but to also MOTIVATE us into action and "doing something about it?"

It seems that in Iraq, groups of people are already trying to do this with guns and car bombs, after all there are foreign soldiers on their land, they must deal with the oppression head-on. It is a horrible reality indeed.

However I think if we REALLY WANT to end this war, we must dismantle our own systems that perpetrate this ongoing disaster.

I'm not saying take down the leaders, leaders can be replaced, but take down the entire blueprint. Remodel our values, connect with each other, find a common purpose for common people, organize, become more independent as a community.

Quote:

implicitli  said:
We were indoctrinated so differently, that I cannot even imagine comprehending the mindset of the average Iraqi.




We know our own though, don't we? Can we not change ours? :mushroom2:

I guess I am calling for a radical approach, but what other method is there when working within the system only sustains it?

a Velvet Revolution.. :heart:

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


--------------------


Edited by AlteredAgain (12/22/06 05:07 PM)


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Invisibleimplicitli
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Re: War on Terror [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6397239 - 12/22/06 05:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

How???????

I guess first you'd have to expose the fact that every thing we do is a choice, and that every choice we make belies our value system.

The problem with democracy is that it makes it so easy to pander to mediocrity, even within the individual.

And I think that most people would say: Why question something that seems to be working?

When I was in school I was all about working within the system, and now I see that we need to work from without - but I do not think that we can force enlightenment on a population whose only concern is how to scramble for the spare change to consume even more.


Hmmm. . . Maybe we could make a reality tv show about enlightenment. That'd work.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6397250 - 12/22/06 05:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:grin:

that or one does the best one can within the limits of one's own individual reach.  :wink:

one example,

if you live out on the land, grow your own food.
if you do not have that opportunity, don't pay money for fast food, be a wise grocery shopper, buy from local businesses, eat organics, eat modestly, etc. etc.

a second example,

share a house with friends, split the rent, use public transportation or share one car, bypass the nuclear family system, less work means more time to do other things and commit one's self to new ways of living.

there are many hows, and each how will require a shift in our accustomed lifestyle, it's the little things, and that's a start. :thumbup:

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


--------------------


Edited by AlteredAgain (12/22/06 05:30 PM)


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InvisibleQbanMoJo
Mr. Brightside

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 361
Loc: OutSide
Re: War on Terror [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6397292 - 12/22/06 05:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

A quick FYI. The whitehouse is asking for $90 billion more for next year. I saw that on yahoo! news the other day. Anyone thats interested should read it, it is almost insulting to Americans and the world for that matter. Basically, the report is that they will do whatever "they" see fit with the money. When it is us who are paying taxes.

Can you say Revolution? Its about time I think. :thumbup:


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Invisibleimplicitli
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Re: War on Terror [Re: QbanMoJo]
    #6397340 - 12/22/06 05:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, I'm in on the revolution front.

Maybe more of a denim revolution than velvet, though. I have to do more than just not go to McDonald's - although I agree that it's a start.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6397391 - 12/22/06 06:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

the reason i brought of the example of conscious diet was because of a saying i once read,

whoever controls the food, controls the populace.

it opened my eyes quite a bit and revealed to me that the way food is organized and distributed has have a very basic yet tremendous effect on the collective human organism. :mushroom2:

we obviously need it to live, so to give control of the food to an external entity..

wouldn't that be like putting our lives in its hands, or our independency to say the least?

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


--------------------


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Invisibleimplicitli
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Re: War on Terror [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6397407 - 12/22/06 06:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The American administration won't have won until there is a Walmart with a McDonald's in every major Iraqi hub, with a Starbucks across the street.

Finally, a conclusive measurement.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6397423 - 12/22/06 06:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

implicitli said:
The American administration won't have won until there is a Walmart with a McDonald's in every major Iraqi hub, with a Starbucks across the street.

Finally, a conclusive measurement.




:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:


--------------------


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: War on Terror [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6398118 - 12/22/06 11:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
the reason i brought of the example of conscious diet was because of a saying i once read,

whoever controls the food, controls the populace.

it opened my eyes quite a bit and revealed to me that the way food is organized and distributed has have a very basic yet tremendous effect on the collective human organism. :mushroom2:

we obviously need it to live, so to give control of the food to an external entity..

wouldn't that be like putting our lives in its hands, or our independency to say the least?

:earth: :yinyang: :shineon:




Our whole culture has locked up the food. Ever since that split about 10,000 years ago when some became agricultural and some stayed tribal, our side has locked up the food and that is the reason we have many many poor and very few wealthy, and unemployment, and homelessness, and a poverty of the things we need (i.e. human compassion) which has ultimately led to where America is involved with Iraq at the current moment.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/16/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: War on Terror [Re: implicitli]
    #6398586 - 12/23/06 03:50 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The US government never had a clue how to conduct a war. They constantly have made decisions to copy the decisions past armies made in similar situations, believing that they would have identical results if they made identical decisions. They are a body without a brain.

Whose decisions did all those past armies repeat? Or were they maybe thinking dynamically for themselves? There is no blueprint for war, for predicting reactions, for anything that involves human decisions. The militias are winning because they are thinking for themselves. The US is losing because they don't have a clue, tho if they had, they wouldn't be there in the first place.


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InvisibleQbanMoJo
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Registered: 09/09/04
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Re: War on Terror [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6399963 - 12/23/06 08:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Wow, just an observation.

How about, like you have said, the war on terror, is really the war on power, control? Listen to my reasoning before saying no:

Iraq is a landscape, a desert. Somewhere that, in time, can be transformed into whatever the government wants. Which, most probably, will be like the states. Americanized, if you will.

The government, in a way, will control them, like us, without anyone noticing, at least not just anyone. Only people that will know the answers to those secretive questions will be them themselves and the ones "in the know", Insiders, which by the way, are being hunted down, so Ive heard.

Anyway, conspiracy theorists unite but how about if that truth exists? Would it make sense to all of us that dont know the secrets of OUR government? I COULD go on about this but it would not make much sense in doing so. Therefore, I leave this spark in your hands. What say you? :wink:

Peace, Love, Understanding. ARE the Good roads to take. :heart:


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