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Anonymous

Thanatophobia
    #639163 - 05/21/02 11:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Thanatophobia.. The Fear of Death or Dying.

Many humans seem to be plagued by this affliction. We have set up methods in hopes to improve our longetivity at life. We build shelters for us to protect us from the elements.. we develop medicines which improve our chances of fighting an illness or prolonging our life.. yet in the end we all die. It's a part of living.

Still though.. death is the unanswered question for many. What happens when you die? What lies beyond this life? For some, these questions are too bold to even consider seeking an answer for, and so the questions remain unanswered, yet still remain. Stagnating inside the questioners mind, they begin to cause all sorts of anxieties and uneasiness relating to death.

Before I go any further.. I would like some feedback. What does this fear of death stem from? Do you fear death? If so, why?

Personally, I can't wait to die. It's being born that scares me.


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639174 - 05/21/02 11:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

My opinion is that it's rooted in the survival instinct. What gives me some trepidation is the process of dying. After I'm dead, it will be more of a problem for those who love me and depend on me than it will be for me.


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639176 - 05/21/02 11:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

People fear the unknown.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639183 - 05/21/02 11:23 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

What does this fear of death stem from?

It really stems from fear of the unknown. In this case, the unknown is nonexistence.

Do you fear death? If so, why?
I really don't. It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639188 - 05/21/02 11:26 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

fear of the unknown. survival instinct is mostly for the moment (i see a tiger running at me and fear for my safety), but since we are capable of thinking, we question what may lie beyond this world. i believe that even seriously religious people have doubt somewhere in their heads that they're going to heaven. we're told these horror stories of burning in hell thus creating a platform for fear of death. not all cultures fear death because they weren't brainwashed by heaven/hell bullshit.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639250 - 05/21/02 12:12 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Fear of not being alive --a ridiculous fear indeed. Nice post Shroomism.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: frogsheath]
    #639277 - 05/21/02 12:39 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Actually I think the fear of not being alive is just what it is. In our minds the concepts of death and not being alive are (rightfully, perhaps) one and the same. Yet death is a more tangible symbol than all that goes into not being alive. So it is the one that gets the attention--the one, like Shroomism mentiioned, we can fight against.

hongomon


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: hongomon]
    #639328 - 05/21/02 01:52 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

We can fight death but we can't cheat it (yet) so why the fear? What are we really fighting against? A void? I think we fear not being remembered as well. That's why we have cemetaries.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639334 - 05/21/02 01:58 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

i guess ive been closer to karking it than a lot of people and fukkit i do fear death.
maybe not so much death, but i love this life, the people i know, the fun things i can do, the things i get to learn, the intensity of emotional experience and the beautiful places ive been to and have yet to visit. so my fear is more in the context of losing something i love rather than fear of the unknown.
have you ever broken up with a partner, because you thought they were dull and not right for you, but afterwards realised how strong your feelings are for them..but it's too late, no turning back.
i enjoy being here and the thought of leaving saddens me.
life in the meat is a very special and temporary experience, get as much out of it as you can while you can.
sitting in front of a keyboard its very easy to say 'i welcome death' and all that, but when the crunch comes and some dude is about to slice your throat or a car is about to run you down, very few of us are capable of maintaining that sentiment.
just like at birth, we will be kicking and screaming in protest.

lvx


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: mr crisper]
    #639367 - 05/21/02 02:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Now that you mention it I fear that most about death: leaving this place and departing from the people I know. I like it here too! I'm afraid to die.


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Offlinejono
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639376 - 05/21/02 02:37 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

When I think why I fear death as such, isn't for a fear of the unknown that lies afterwards, but the loss of future opportunities that I have while I'm alive. Living is (on the most part) a pleasurable experience, and I want to continue experiencing it, in the state that I'm presently in. I don't believe in an afterlife, so I want my present state to go on for as long as possible!

Cheers,
Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639388 - 05/21/02 02:44 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Ernest Becker (?Denial of Death?, ?Escape from Evil?) would say that the fear of death is inherent in the human experience. He points out two big views on the FOD: The ?healthy minded-argument? which posits that the fear is something that needs to be overcome and can indeed be overcome, and Becker?s view, the ?morbidly-minded argument,? which holds that because of our pre-programmed instinct for survival, we will always fear the end of existence. He goes on to say (and I agree) that our need to repress this fear plays a huge role in most of our symbol-seeking behavior? (if anyone wants me to elaborate here, let me know, otherwise I highly recommend ?Denial of Death? and psychological research in the area of ?Terror Management Theory?)

But I?m not sure I buy the ?morbidly minded-argument? as much as I used to, especially after getting into Zen and Alan Watts. I think we will fear death as long as we acknowledge as inherently existing the idea of self. After tripping shrooms several times, it appears that this state of mind is at least possible with the aid of a drug. I want to believe (and have no reason not to believe) that it is possible while sober. I think the acknowledgement of self, and not solely an instinct for survival, also gives rise to the fear.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639436 - 05/21/02 03:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm ready for death whenever it comes for me... but I still have a lot that I would like to do.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Anonymous]
    #639475 - 05/21/02 04:04 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I don't dear death
I fear dying


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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #639509 - 05/21/02 04:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

This subject is one of the most important topics explored by human beings. I believe it is what makes us different from most other animals (although this is almost impossible to prove, except that we know animals don't build temples and such to any "higher" power, preceived or otherwise). As was said in another reply, many believe this is why we worship God and build momuments to spiritual deities. Humans have what scientists call ,a three dimensional brain which simply put, has an element beyond instint and social (the ability to communicate) programming. This 3d element has the ability to draw intuitive conclusions from observation, one of which is the abiltiy to know with certainty that one day we will die. (Not my lawyer though-he will live forever, that sick bastard). In Christianity, this element is protrayed in the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help, which memoralizes the moment in which Jesus saw the image of his own death. Mary comforted him as they both were subjected to this image. No doubt some of the wall paintings, on the great pyramids in Egypt, contain similar stories which parrallel this right of passage that binds most all humans. (I can't prove this because I haven't actually been to the pyramids but it is a theroy I came to after seeing pictures a friend brought back from a viist there). It is this image which frames human life, to some extent. We may be swayed to believe, as did Jesus and other leaders in historic religious movements, that this fact negates certain desires of the flesh, like power and greed, since gained assets change nothing, in terms of this subject. Others may be conviced that since we all die no matter what we do, that anything goes and whoever gets in the way are of no real regard. It does appear though that a 3d brain is subjected to reflection at some point in life, even if this "moment" comes at death. This would bear considerable weight on the notion of living well, or "else", especially considering Einstein's law of relativity may suggest that "time" is subject to perspecitve, so a "moment" of death could conceivably last forever. For this reason I am afraid of death. I try to make "good" decisions but haven't always been diligent about my behavior nor do I conform to a list of rules that would not allow me to explore the phenomenon of being human. I also am humble enough to admit that even though I am quite certain that "success" will be rewarded with a metamorphasis to something really cool after this life, I am not totally certain. I believe that further complicating our condition is the idea that a certain amount of failure is necessary to achieve "success" , which is a topic for yet another thread!


--------------------
"New shit has come to light..."


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #640213 - 05/22/02 08:03 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Fear is simply a tool of the ego. If you kill your ego, your fears will die with it, including the fear of death. The only guarantee we have in life is that we will eventually die. Rather than worry your entire life about the inevitable, live your life as if the inevitable has already happened.

It is sad that our modern society has placed such a high value on life. We would rather somebody slowly waste away in excruciating pain rather than help them find peace and dignity in death. We will spend tens of thousands of dollars to ensure a premature baby lives even though the child will grow up in poverty and dispair. We project our own fears into the rules which govern our society. Just fifty years ago it was not uncommon to have a family that had lost a child or two. Death wasn't such a big deal; people accepted it as a part of life. Today we ignore nature and care about nothing other than what makes us happy.

Don't misread my intent... I am not saying that it is fine to go out and kill people, or other such nonsense. I am simply saying that we should accept fate rather than fight fate. Nothing is forever,; lets stop lying to ourselves and start living instead.

Q: Why do people die?
A: Because people are born.

Q: Why are people born?
A: Because people die.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineInDiCaToRgReEn
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Seuss]
    #640855 - 05/22/02 06:07 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I have no fear of death, i long for it sometimes, but there still alot i wanna do. No wait, all i wanna do is get high and write shit to you guys, and trip other people out which i do on a daily basis, thats life enough for me. The way i see it now it seems ridiculous to fear death, although it is ignorant to belive it will be a free ride to the other side, we made the choice to come here to experience all this negativity so we can bring our stories back home, the only difference with me is that i dont wanna accept the negativity anymore, some people are just so down all the time like i used to be, but i think i fulfilled my lifes goal, the rest is just a wild journey.


--------------------
"oh to be a kid again, not a worry in the world except mybe the lack of bubbles in the bath tub"


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: InDiCaToRgReEn]
    #642624 - 05/24/02 01:47 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Some very good responses, just what I was looking for. Some of you say the fear of death comes from the fear of the unkown. This makes sense. Humans do tend to fear the unkown. Others of you say that the fear of death is not actually a fear of death per say.. but a fear of leaving behind loved ones, since they may depend on you. Also a very good response. To the living, death may be the most horrible thing. You lose someone you love, and they are gone for as long as you are on the physical world... You will never get to touch them, talk to them, or interact with them again for as long as you live.

Let's look at what makes us Humans. We are beings of (spiritual) consciousness, residing in a (physical) body. Does everyone agree with me on that? Consciousness is what allows us to perceive the world, and interact with it. It is the life force that allows us to use our bodies in the physical world.

When we go to sleep at night, it appears as though we are unconscious. This may be so, as our consciousness could be elsewhere as our body rests.

We do dream while we sleep, correct? To an outside observer it would appear as though we are not consciously there. True, we are not consciously focusing on the physical world while asleep, but rather on the 'dream world', where our consciousness is unhindered by the physical body. Yet at the end of the night, we 'wake up' and our consciousness begins to focus on the physical world once again.

But what happens when we die? The body stops pumping blood, we stop growing, and all organs cease to function. That is the physical aspect. But we know now that there is more to a living human than a physical body. What happens to the consciousness? The consciousness is energy. If we refer back to some basic scientific prinicples, we know that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only altered. The consciousness has to go somewhere... and it isn't in the physical body, because that is dead. Consciousness does not die.

Whether heaven or hell, limbo, the astral plane, purgatory, or whatever else you believe in, the consciousness lives on. YOU do not die. After all, YOU are your consciousness, not your body.

We can guess all we want about what happens to the consciousness, or soul, when you die... but can we at least be safe in the fact that it goes somewhere?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #642660 - 05/24/02 02:48 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

> The consciousness is energy.

Actually, if we are getting technical and pulling the physics card out, I think you mean work not energy. Your brain is full of energy, but thought requires change (otherwise it wouldn't be a thought, but instead a constant state of being). Just a thought... -grin-

They did study a while back where they actually mapped consciousness in the brain. It was a really cool experiment where they put a red color glass over one eye and blue color glass over the other. They then show the person a projection of blue horizontal lines and red verticle lines on a wall. One eye can see one color of lines, but not the other color. The other eye can see the oposite color, but not the first. As you watch the wall, the lines will flicker beteween horizontal and verticle. Not because of a change in the projector, but because of a change in which side of the brain has control of consciousness at that moment. (The left side of the brain sees out of the right eye and the right side of the brain sees out of the left eye.) When ever the lines switched, the observer would click a button which would take a snap shot of their brain activity at that moment.
When a computer plotted all the pictures over time they got a picture of consciousness in the brain. It turns out that it looks literally like a flame from a small camp fire. The flame tends to bouce all over the brain... it never settles in any single area.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineDemon
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #642707 - 05/24/02 04:02 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not afraid to die.
To quote one of the voices from Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of the Moon":
"Why should I be afraid of dying? There's no reason for it; You have to go some time"


--------------------
"Sex is like a gun.. you aim, you shoot, you run" - Aerosmith

Come visit SacredShrooms.org!


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Demon]
    #642802 - 05/24/02 05:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not afraid to die.
I'm curious, would you tell that to a robber who broke into your home, tied up you and your family and shoved the barrel of a twelve gauge shotgun in your ear?


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #643153 - 05/24/02 09:26 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"To the living, death may be the most horrible thing. You lose someone you love, and they are gone for as long as you are on the physical world... You will never get to touch them, talk to them, or interact with them again for as long as you live."

You hit on a very good point here. I was lying in bed last night when I realized that I did actually have a huge fear of death--not my own death, but of someone close to me. This fear grips me daily. I've been protected from this all my life. I've lost cousins, high school classmates, but never, NEVER, someone from my inner circle.

My fear of no longer being alive myself fades in comparison to my dread of losing a loved one.

I'd like to believe that the consciousness lives on, but I also understand the role of the physical in our thought process. the one constant I'm aware of between waking and sleeping consciousness is the activity of neurons. Still, I would like to think that something awaits.

hongomon


Edited by hongomon (05/24/02 09:30 AM)


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #643249 - 05/24/02 10:30 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting. I do want to make known the existence of a third perspective which is that the fear of our own personal, inevitable non-existences neccesarily arises in large part because of how most of us experience reality. That is, the vast majority of us do fear death, even if we think we don't.

"Whether heaven or hell, limbo, the astral plane, purgatory, or whatever else you believe in, the consciousness lives on. YOU do not die. After all, YOU are your consciousness, not your body."

I (and many others on this board) subscribe to the belief that what we experience as phenomenal consciousness arises from the CNS system and other parts of our physiology. Further, without it, there is no phenomenal experience. I'm thinking this is what you mean by conscioussness (phenomenal experience). There are a lot of studies suggesting that individuals with various types of brain damage experience the world in a very different way than those of us with no such damage- although we can't actually experience what they are experiencing, we can infer from their behavior that this is the case. This evidence suggests that with the absence of physiology comes the absence of what we call consciousness as well.

Is our "phenomenal experience" (e.g., self-awareness, awareness of external objects, continuity of time passage, memory, sense of freewill) what you mean by consiocusness?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
    #643744 - 05/24/02 04:28 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.

Who is the "me" that would be getting pissed off if you were dead?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #643766 - 05/24/02 04:58 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

We are beings of (spiritual) consciousness, residing in a (physical) body. Does everyone agree with me on that?
I think you already know the answer to this question. There is no evidence that we are more than a body.

But we know now that there is more to a living human than a physical body.
And that would be...?

The consciousness is energy.
Consciousness is a property of being human. There is nothing to equate that with energy.

The consciousness has to go somewhere...
It doesn't "have to" go anywhere. It is extinguished like putting out a candle flame. The flame did not have to go anywhere.

YOU do not die. After all, YOU are your consciousness, not your body.
After all? "I" am my body, my hopes, my dreams, my friends, lovers, the place where I live, my memories. my talents, etc. That is all destroyed upon one's death. As for a mysterious something continuing, there is no evidence for that. An insight on a mushroom trip can be convincing, but is not truly peering beyond the veil.

Throughout this thread there has been a mix-up of ideas that needs to be clarified for the purpose of discussion. There are two main types of fear of death. One is an obsession with the idea of it, which can be quite unhealthy. The other is the fear that takes over when one is actually presented with a life-threatening situation. When faced with scenario two, there is no thought of loved ones, potential losses, etc. The fear at this point is of a totally primal nature and has nothing to do with one's world view or conditioning; it is inherent in our lizard brain.

Despite the claims otherwise, everyone here would experience that same bone-chilling terror, if say you were swimming in the ocean and saw a great white shark bearing down on you. All of your BS philosophy about being ready and not fearing would blow away to dust while you cried for your mama and prayed for a non-existent god to save you.

As an aside, how did I feel when robbed at gunpoint last year? Was I petrified? No. I was acutely aware like in a meditative state. My attention was quite focused. I think that my fear was minimized because I felt like I got a read on the thief, that he just wanted money and would not hurt us if we complied. Now if we had been forced into the car, I would have had an entirely different reaction, knowing that it would probably turn out badly.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedumlovesyou
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
    #644069 - 05/24/02 08:29 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.
Wow! Wich are the goals in your life, if I may ask? There are a lot of people saying they have goals and stuff, but I never thought of havin major ones.


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Swami]
    #644571 - 05/25/02 09:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch: I really don't. It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.

Swami: Who is the "me" that would be getting pissed off if you were dead?

Well... I guess it would be the "me" right before that final click. I did say "died" though... poor phrasing maybe.


SW: When faced with scenario two, there is no thought of loved ones, potential losses, etc. The fear at this point is of a totally primal nature and has nothing to do with one's world view or conditioning; it is inherent in our lizard brain.

Actually, I thought I was going to die late last year when somebody tried to kill me... I was bleeding everywhere, my vision was blurry and a purple fog crept in and out of my view of the world. I thought I was going to die (leaving out many details of what happened). At one point I was chuckling to myself thinking "So this is how it all ends eh [Sclorch]? I sure wish I could've accomplished a little more in my life. Twenty-two and nothing accomplished... everything's pretty much still not crossed off the "to do" list... head trauma and blood loss is your ticket to the last goodbye..."

SW: Despite the claims otherwise, everyone here would experience that same bone-chilling terror, if say you were swimming in the ocean and saw a great white shark bearing down on you. All of your BS philosophy about being ready and not fearing would blow away to dust while you cried for your mama and prayed for a non-existent god to save you.

Well, I obviously didn't die... help showed up before it got that far. But for a while I was utterly convinced I was going to die. I didn't pray for any god to save me either. I actually accepted death and just slowed myself down... I was looking at the things around me trying to suck in as much experience I could in those "final" moments. Then the ambulance showed up... Sort of upsetting because I was completely calm up until that point. Then all this frantic flashlight-blood-pressure-cuff-gauze-and-tape-latex-gloves-badges-stethoscopic madness ensued and my once happy-calm brain was now being bombarded with questions- "can you hear me?" "where does it hurt?" "does this hurt?" "did you lose consciousness?" "do you know where you are?" "does your neck hurt?"....

So, when near death, I don't think that everyone drops to their knees and gives everything up to a (new-found?) higher power... well, at least not me.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #644648 - 05/25/02 10:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Our fear of death is what makes us evolutionarily fit to survive in such a harsh world. It is this instinct that allows us to elevate our conciousness above the animals and begin to understand our own psychology. The realization of our ultimate demise is the source of all human progress. Once we discovered that our days are numbered, we left the animal world behind and began to seek a deeper truth. Hence we have religion, psychology, scientific progress, and the like.


--------------------
:egyptian:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
    #645092 - 05/25/02 05:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

So, when near death, I don't think that everyone drops to their knees and gives everything up to a (new-found?) higher power... well, at least not me.

After the fact of trauma is a quite different state of mind than before. Once the shark has bitten you there is no more fear of being bitten by the shark as it has already happened. I was talking about the mind-state when one is on full alert and trying to prevent death or injury rather than the post injury state of shock.

You give few details as to your situation, so it is hard to dig deeper. Thanks for sharing your unique perspective though. Glad you are still here



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Swami]
    #645368 - 05/25/02 11:23 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Catalysis: Our fear of death is what makes us evolutionarily fit to survive in such a harsh world. It is this instinct that allows us to elevate our conciousness above the animals and begin to understand our own psychology. The realization of our ultimate demise is the source of all human progress. Once we discovered that our days are numbered, we left the animal world behind and began to seek a deeper truth. Hence we have religion, psychology, scientific progress, and the like.

Maybe the fear of death helped light the fires of thought... but that doesn't mean that humanity has not evolved to a point where these primitive issues are still needed. I also wouldn't call the fear of death an instinct.

The Swam: I was talking about the mind-state when one is on full alert and trying to prevent death or injury rather than the post injury state of shock.

I sort of figured that... but I wanted to post it anyways. True, I would like to avoid being hit in the head, however, that doesn't make me afraid of death... I'd call it an aversion. Me dying would really fuck up my plans, hence, I'd be pissed - just prior to that last bit of consciousness, so if I was vaporized ala nuclear bomb... I'd be a little happier (well, less pissed) because I wouldn't have time to think about shite.

Okay, so I have this tendency to avoid situations that will fuck up my plans (unless my plan is to fuck up my plans... riiight). If I had a gun to my face... hmm, I wouldn't be afraid, I'd most likely be slightly annoyed that some fucker is trying to fuck up my plans (taking away my cognitive freedom, in this case by taking me out - eesh! hehe). I find it better to not worry about shit like dying when there is a guy sticking a gun in your face... it's either going to happen or not. SO I guess I'd start telling him that we could work something out... then I'd kill him when he blinked (mantis attack through the heart). What the hell am I talking about??? I should sleep. Night.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #645968 - 05/26/02 09:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

i Think there is a BIG diffrence between not being afraid of death, and being FORCED , i.e. a shot gun in the grill, to walk into the promised land. If indeed ther eIS a promised LAnd, but that is another post.

I can say I do not fear death. But I also have a lot of things to. I hope I can get them all done before It comes for me.

When I use shrooms, I get a very 'detatched' feeling. Its as if, I know my body is temporary, and I'm very glad to be alive, but If I were to slip away, that would be OK too.
Maybe its my background, maybe its my spritual beliefs, but I think thats an OK way to be.

OoD




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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
    #649078 - 05/28/02 05:30 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch, that came out wrong. I realize the differance between our fear of death and anamalistic survival instincts (though i still believe they are related). My main point was to touch on how the fear of death contributes to life.


--------------------
:egyptian:


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Catalysis]
    #654141 - 05/30/02 04:59 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Of course there is a difference between shot in the head and not being afraid of death... I think we can get quite attatched to our physical form during the course of our life, and harbour no rational desire for it to get sliced up outside of our control. It is a different story to die of natural bodily failure, this is not an extraneous variable out of our control. Even in death, Im sure we would rather have that choice of control..

Still an interesting phenomenon exists when examining deaths from suicide. The overwhelming majority show signs of second thoughts on their chosen method of ending their life. Claw marks on the necks of self-hung individuals show their desperation to remove the choking cord. Jumpers who live because of human intervention, talk about the utter dread of what they are doing the moment they fall Why is there such thing as a suicide attempt? etc. im sure you get the picture

Wether you argue that these individuals were attention seekers and not ready for death, or not, it still stands that the survival instinct bred into us from the word go, upholds. Those organisms that did not hold an immense survival instinct were history, their genes were not repeated through natural selection. We have it lucky nowadays, we hardly have to fend for ourselves at all. Are we bored with our current society? Is there nothing to do except get high or kill ourselves?


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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #654204 - 05/30/02 05:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

my fear isn't really of death, it is of the process of dying, and of the concept of non-existance. even hell would be better than to simply cease to be.

larry


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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Offlinejono
misc.
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #654596 - 05/30/02 08:42 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"my fear isn't really of death, it is of the process of dying, and of the concept of non-existance"

I can understand a fear of the pain of the process of dying, but what if death happened instantly? (please note: I accept your point of view, but I am just interested to know your reasons behind it)
Also I think (again only my view) the concept of your own non-existance shouldnt worry you, because it is logically impossible for a concious entity to comphrehend its own non-existance.
Try to imagine yourself not existing? I dont think it can be done. Try to imagine yourself totally unconcious even, once again I dont think it can be done. Once you are dead, there wont be any "you" as such to be concerned with its own non-existance.
Also if it is non-existance you are concerned about, try to imagine the period of time before you were born; That 'eternity' of non-existance. It was a period of non-existance for you, but surely it is absurd to think of it as worrisome.
I think most arguments about the fear of death sort of misconstrue the picture. People often try to imagine what it would be like to be dead, as if death itself is a state that 'you' can experience. I think death will be as equally experienceable as being unconcious or asleep would be.
There is a really good quote from Lucretius on this, he says "But even in sleep, when mind and body alike are at rest, no one misses himself or sighs for life. If such sleep were pro-longed to eternity, no longing for ourselves would trouble us."
Im more inclined to think that the fear of death entails the fear of loss of future possibilities, rather than non-existance. Or perhaps a fear of the unknown as has been pointed out by others previously.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: jono]
    #654691 - 05/31/02 12:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

thats an interesting point jono.... I used to think that an eternal sleep would be like hell because it would be stimulus deprived, and only capable of recycling your thoughts... although when I wake up from an intense dream (most mornings) I regret waking up and long to live in the surreal world created in my head.. If the chance exists that our conscious lives on after the bodies death, there is just as much possibility that it could interact with other souls that had been released from their mortal grip..


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Offlinegumby0zero
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Registered: 05/31/02
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #655035 - 05/31/02 05:37 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

death is only the end of life.

a great man once said,
"as a long day brings happy sleep
so the long life brings happy death."

Death is what lies beyond. People do fear this, because they are not ready to accept the workings of nature. The world we live in implies that humans are not animals, and this leads us to believe that we are somehow above death. This is why people are shocked at the thought of dying. The truth is, we are but creatures on this planet, and therefore death can and will come to us. When it does come to me, i will accept it as the end of my life, and regret that I will not be able to see what becomes of the world afterwards.


--------------------
be at peace.


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InvisibleJared
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
    #655497 - 05/31/02 09:27 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals."

-No, it really wouldn't.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Jared]
    #656009 - 05/31/02 02:02 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch: Yes it would.
Jared: No it wouldn't.
Sclorch: WOULD!
Jared: WOULDN'T!
Sclorch: *picks up rock* WOUL.... aw.. fuck it.... *drops rock*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #656297 - 05/31/02 04:49 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The moments before death intrigue me more then actually dying. Knowing your life is ending, what state of mind will prevail? You have an idea of whats important in your life, but when the moment comes, how will you choose to leave? Will you cry that its not your time yet? Will you make your peace in the final moments ? Will you gain an understanding above all that you learned in this world?

One thing is for sure, I want to experience the dying part of death, I want to feel every moment and know that its happening.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Demon]
    #656360 - 05/31/02 05:42 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Why do people fear death?

It's because they will lose all the things they are attached to in this life. If you own a nice car, when u die you can't take it with you; when u die u leave your kids and wife that u have become dependant on for your comfort and security, but u can't take them with you. So in effect, your attachments and possessions make you what you are and people are afraid of losing them because they will lose their identity. This is very simple to understand. Look at the Egyptian pharoahs, they filled thier chambers with everything they owned so they could take it with them to their afterlife. DEATH = losing your attachments you worked so hard to get.


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: chodamunky]
    #656408 - 05/31/02 06:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

*cm.... our possessions are not who we are... our obsession with possession defiles us, and distracts us from who we really are. I think that if an individuals sole reason for fearing death is losing his valuables then they deserve to die. we are not put on earth to go to our job and work like a bitch to pay the maintenance costs of our material urges. the whole religion of buddhism distances itself from the selfish desires and impulses that we harbor. The more possessions we have, the more worries we have. this is unneccessary, these things dont last, they are not important, I myself have only realised this in actuality recently.


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Offlinegroingrinder
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Registered: 05/22/02
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #656681 - 05/31/02 09:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I don't fear death, however I do fear a slow, painful death. I guess you could say it is not death that I fear, but dieing. I live with my elderly father who I do all the housework for and take care of car maintenance and yard work and I hope to God that he goes before I do so he is not burdened by my passing. My mom and little brother died a couple of years ago and I have dreams where I see them and it feels so good. When I was young ( I am 47 ) I used to think that people who commited suicide had to be crazy, but now I don't know. I wish that I could remember my past lives with certainty and know that in the next one that I would remember this one. It is such a shame to gain a lifes worth of knowledge/experiences only to lose them on the next turn of the wheel.


--------------------
Let's not confuse truth with reality.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Thanatophobia [Re: deepr]
    #656717 - 05/31/02 10:21 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I think that if an individuals sole reason for fearing death is losing his valuables then they deserve to die.
What an advanced spiritual concept.

the whole religion of buddhism distances itself from the selfish desires and impulses that we harbor.
Like the selfish desire that lusts for someone else's destruction?

The more possessions we have, the more worries we have. this is unneccessary, these things dont last, they are not important, I myself have only realised this in actuality recently.
So until recently you deserved to die, but now that you have seen the light, you are part of an elite group? Get a grip and some humility.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (05/31/02 10:24 PM)


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Swami]
    #656809 - 06/01/02 01:55 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

first of all, i love it how people like swami 'spellcheck' my posts for me *thanks* yet hesitate to provide an intelligible opinion of their own on the situation... swami, control your fear of the unknown.... and learn

my post was in context... if you read the earlier posts you might understand what I am referring to... this post is actually about how there is more to life than common materialism and fulfillment of our desires, I get annoyed at how we have this one opportunity called life, and I watch everyone piss it up against the wall. Before I did my philosophy degree, yes i was wasting my life, i had no direction, i was thinking how i could make some cash and live the high life... but then I truly learnt that this is not important, spiritual maturity if you will.. i could go on but id probably be wasting my time on you

i am not enlightened, i am not even a buddhist, I just study it for its principles.. trying to be a better person is not an attempt at elitism. im not skiting, i am retelling my experience, and hope that others will think things through, because if we dont, its all over


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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 11,004
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: jono]
    #659499 - 06/02/02 06:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, let me clarify myself.

I fear a long drawn out painful death. an instant one would be nice.

As for the other. I know that if it happened, I wouldn't care or even know. But now, while I do exist, the idea of ever not existing is horrible.

hope that makes sense.
larry


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #661743 - 06/04/02 02:58 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Death and dying!!! Wow what a subject!!! I believe like many which have posted here that fear of the unknown and what we cannot hope to understand is why I have some apprehention of Dying. I will however not let that control my life. I am here now. I will enjoy now!! To sit and contemplate ones death is a pointless waste of the here in now!! You cannot change it. You cannot even predict how you will accept death when it comes. Live now with passion and vigor and Death will be of no concern...


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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #661805 - 06/04/02 04:02 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Magnificient!!

This is the exact response I was looking for
You win the grand prize... the ability to not fear death and simply enjoy life as you have it.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Thanatophobia [Re: deepr]
    #661823 - 06/04/02 04:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

first of all, i love it how people like swami 'spellcheck' my posts for me *thanks*
*blushes* Aw shucks. It tweren't nothin'.

yet hesitate to provide an intelligible opinion of their own on the situation...
Will have to reread my job description. I don't believe that it stated that my opinions had to be intelligible.

swami, control your fear of the unknown.... and learn
*shaking uncontrollably and breaking out in a cold sweat* OK, I will try for you.

I get annoyed at how we have this one opportunity called life, and I watch everyone piss it up against the wall.
Please explain how your "annoyance" is a sign of spiritual maturity? Are you omnipotent in that you watched "everyone" piss away their life?

...this post is actually about how there is more to life than common materialism and fulfillment of our desires,
Yes, there is also the loss of material goods and the thwarting of desires.

Before I did my philosophy degree... then I truly learnt ...
Please share with us what you "learnt".

i could go on but id probably be wasting my time on you
True, I am beyond redemption and have the cerebral power of a caterpillar.

i am not enlightened
NO WAY, DUDE! I am shocked beyond recognition.

... trying to be a better person is not an attempt at elitism.
Huh? My comment on elitism had nothing to do with your attempts at self-improvement, but on your judgement that certain others "deserved to die" which is most certainly an elitist stance! I suppose that you think Hitler's viewpoint that Jews "deserved to die" was NOT an elitist stance.

im not skiting...
I am most glad that you have renounced "skiting" as it is morally reprehensible and illegal in most countries.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBarbi
Plastic Person

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 12,976
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
    #663466 - 06/05/02 01:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Barbi]
    #663473 - 06/05/02 01:19 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yep.... good ol' natural selection



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Anonymous

Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Swami]
    #663541 - 06/05/02 03:18 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Swami.. you crack me the hell up

i could go on but id probably be wasting my time on you

True, I am beyond redemption and have the cerebral power of a caterpillar.


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