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Anonymous
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 Re: Thanatophobia  [Re: Demon]
#642802 - 05/24/02 05:46 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not afraid to die.
I'm curious, would you tell that to a robber who broke into your home, tied up you and your family and shoved the barrel of a twelve gauge shotgun in your ear?
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 hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 21 years, 2 days
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#643153 - 05/24/02 09:26 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"To the living, death may be the most horrible thing. You lose someone you love, and they are gone for as long as you are on the physical world... You will never get to touch them, talk to them, or interact with them again for as long as you live."
You hit on a very good point here. I was lying in bed last night when I realized that I did actually have a huge fear of death--not my own death, but of someone close to me. This fear grips me daily. I've been protected from this all my life. I've lost cousins, high school classmates, but never, NEVER, someone from my inner circle.
My fear of no longer being alive myself fades in comparison to my dread of losing a loved one.
I'd like to believe that the consciousness lives on, but I also understand the role of the physical in our thought process. the one constant I'm aware of between waking and sleeping consciousness is the activity of neurons. Still, I would like to think that something awaits.
hongomon
Edited by hongomon (05/24/02 09:30 AM)
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 buttonion
Calmly Watching
Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#643249 - 05/24/02 10:30 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Interesting. I do want to make known the existence of a third perspective which is that the fear of our own personal, inevitable non-existences neccesarily arises in large part because of how most of us experience reality. That is, the vast majority of us do fear death, even if we think we don't.
"Whether heaven or hell, limbo, the astral plane, purgatory, or whatever else you believe in, the consciousness lives on. YOU do not die. After all, YOU are your consciousness, not your body."
I (and many others on this board) subscribe to the belief that what we experience as phenomenal consciousness arises from the CNS system and other parts of our physiology. Further, without it, there is no phenomenal experience. I'm thinking this is what you mean by conscioussness (phenomenal experience). There are a lot of studies suggesting that individuals with various types of brain damage experience the world in a very different way than those of us with no such damage- although we can't actually experience what they are experiencing, we can infer from their behavior that this is the case. This evidence suggests that with the absence of physiology comes the absence of what we call consciousness as well.
Is our "phenomenal experience" (e.g., self-awareness, awareness of external objects, continuity of time passage, memory, sense of freewill) what you mean by consiocusness?
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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
#643744 - 05/24/02 04:28 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.
Who is the "me" that would be getting pissed off if you were dead?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#643766 - 05/24/02 04:58 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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We are beings of (spiritual) consciousness, residing in a (physical) body. Does everyone agree with me on that?
I think you already know the answer to this question. There is no evidence that we are more than a body.
But we know now that there is more to a living human than a physical body.
And that would be...?
The consciousness is energy.
Consciousness is a property of being human. There is nothing to equate that with energy.
The consciousness has to go somewhere...
It doesn't "have to" go anywhere. It is extinguished like putting out a candle flame. The flame did not have to go anywhere.
YOU do not die. After all, YOU are your consciousness, not your body.
After all? "I" am my body, my hopes, my dreams, my friends, lovers, the place where I live, my memories. my talents, etc. That is all destroyed upon one's death. As for a mysterious something continuing, there is no evidence for that. An insight on a mushroom trip can be convincing, but is not truly peering beyond the veil.
Throughout this thread there has been a mix-up of ideas that needs to be clarified for the purpose of discussion. There are two main types of fear of death. One is an obsession with the idea of it, which can be quite unhealthy. The other is the fear that takes over when one is actually presented with a life-threatening situation. When faced with scenario two, there is no thought of loved ones, potential losses, etc. The fear at this point is of a totally primal nature and has nothing to do with one's world view or conditioning; it is inherent in our lizard brain.
Despite the claims otherwise, everyone here would experience that same bone-chilling terror, if say you were swimming in the ocean and saw a great white shark bearing down on you. All of your BS philosophy about being ready and not fearing would blow away to dust while you cried for your mama and prayed for a non-existent god to save you.
As an aside, how did I feel when robbed at gunpoint last year? Was I petrified? No. I was acutely aware like in a meditative state. My attention was quite focused. I think that my fear was minimized because I felt like I got a read on the thief, that he just wanted money and would not hurt us if we complied. Now if we had been forced into the car, I would have had an entirely different reaction, knowing that it would probably turn out badly.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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dumlovesyou
retired shroomer
Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 688
Loc: One dimension
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
#644069 - 05/24/02 08:29 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.
Wow! Wich are the goals in your life, if I may ask? There are a lot of people saying they have goals and stuff, but I never thought of havin major ones.
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I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Swami]
#644571 - 05/25/02 09:12 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sclorch: I really don't. It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals.
Swami: Who is the "me" that would be getting pissed off if you were dead?
Well... I guess it would be the "me" right before that final click. I did say "died" though... poor phrasing maybe.
SW: When faced with scenario two, there is no thought of loved ones, potential losses, etc. The fear at this point is of a totally primal nature and has nothing to do with one's world view or conditioning; it is inherent in our lizard brain.
Actually, I thought I was going to die late last year when somebody tried to kill me... I was bleeding everywhere, my vision was blurry and a purple fog crept in and out of my view of the world. I thought I was going to die (leaving out many details of what happened). At one point I was chuckling to myself thinking "So this is how it all ends eh [Sclorch]? I sure wish I could've accomplished a little more in my life. Twenty-two and nothing accomplished... everything's pretty much still not crossed off the "to do" list... head trauma and blood loss is your ticket to the last goodbye..."
SW: Despite the claims otherwise, everyone here would experience that same bone-chilling terror, if say you were swimming in the ocean and saw a great white shark bearing down on you. All of your BS philosophy about being ready and not fearing would blow away to dust while you cried for your mama and prayed for a non-existent god to save you.
Well, I obviously didn't die... help showed up before it got that far. But for a while I was utterly convinced I was going to die. I didn't pray for any god to save me either. I actually accepted death and just slowed myself down... I was looking at the things around me trying to suck in as much experience I could in those "final" moments. Then the ambulance showed up... Sort of upsetting because I was completely calm up until that point. Then all this frantic flashlight-blood-pressure-cuff-gauze-and-tape-latex-gloves-badges-stethoscopic madness ensued and my once happy-calm brain was now being bombarded with questions- "can you hear me?" "where does it hurt?" "does this hurt?" "did you lose consciousness?" "do you know where you are?" "does your neck hurt?"....
So, when near death, I don't think that everyone drops to their knees and gives everything up to a (new-found?) higher power... well, at least not me. 
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#644648 - 05/25/02 10:12 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Our fear of death is what makes us evolutionarily fit to survive in such a harsh world. It is this instinct that allows us to elevate our conciousness above the animals and begin to understand our own psychology. The realization of our ultimate demise is the source of all human progress. Once we discovered that our days are numbered, we left the animal world behind and began to seek a deeper truth. Hence we have religion, psychology, scientific progress, and the like.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
#645092 - 05/25/02 05:46 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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So, when near death, I don't think that everyone drops to their knees and gives everything up to a (new-found?) higher power... well, at least not me.
After the fact of trauma is a quite different state of mind than before. Once the shark has bitten you there is no more fear of being bitten by the shark as it has already happened. I was talking about the mind-state when one is on full alert and trying to prevent death or injury rather than the post injury state of shock.
You give few details as to your situation, so it is hard to dig deeper. Thanks for sharing your unique perspective though. Glad you are still here
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Swami]
#645368 - 05/25/02 11:23 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Catalysis: Our fear of death is what makes us evolutionarily fit to survive in such a harsh world. It is this instinct that allows us to elevate our conciousness above the animals and begin to understand our own psychology. The realization of our ultimate demise is the source of all human progress. Once we discovered that our days are numbered, we left the animal world behind and began to seek a deeper truth. Hence we have religion, psychology, scientific progress, and the like.
Maybe the fear of death helped light the fires of thought... but that doesn't mean that humanity has not evolved to a point where these primitive issues are still needed. I also wouldn't call the fear of death an instinct.
The Swam: I was talking about the mind-state when one is on full alert and trying to prevent death or injury rather than the post injury state of shock.
I sort of figured that... but I wanted to post it anyways. True, I would like to avoid being hit in the head, however, that doesn't make me afraid of death... I'd call it an aversion. Me dying would really fuck up my plans, hence, I'd be pissed - just prior to that last bit of consciousness, so if I was vaporized ala nuclear bomb... I'd be a little happier (well, less pissed) because I wouldn't have time to think about shite.
Okay, so I have this tendency to avoid situations that will fuck up my plans (unless my plan is to fuck up my plans... riiight). If I had a gun to my face... hmm, I wouldn't be afraid, I'd most likely be slightly annoyed that some fucker is trying to fuck up my plans (taking away my cognitive freedom, in this case by taking me out - eesh! hehe). I find it better to not worry about shit like dying when there is a guy sticking a gun in your face... it's either going to happen or not. SO I guess I'd start telling him that we could work something out... then I'd kill him when he blinked (mantis attack through the heart). What the hell am I talking about??? I should sleep. Night. 
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#645968 - 05/26/02 09:54 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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i Think there is a BIG diffrence between not being afraid of death, and being FORCED , i.e. a shot gun in the grill, to walk into the promised land. If indeed ther eIS a promised LAnd, but that is another post.
I can say I do not fear death. But I also have a lot of things to. I hope I can get them all done before It comes for me.
When I use shrooms, I get a very 'detatched' feeling. Its as if, I know my body is temporary, and I'm very glad to be alive, but If I were to slip away, that would be OK too.
Maybe its my background, maybe its my spritual beliefs, but I think thats an OK way to be.
OoD
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
#649078 - 05/28/02 05:30 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sclorch, that came out wrong. I realize the differance between our fear of death and anamalistic survival instincts (though i still believe they are related). My main point was to touch on how the fear of death contributes to life.
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deepr
the dancer
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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 Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Catalysis]
#654141 - 05/30/02 04:59 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course there is a difference between shot in the head and not being afraid of death... I think we can get quite attatched to our physical form during the course of our life, and harbour no rational desire for it to get sliced up outside of our control. It is a different story to die of natural bodily failure, this is not an extraneous variable out of our control. Even in death, Im sure we would rather have that choice of control..
Still an interesting phenomenon exists when examining deaths from suicide. The overwhelming majority show signs of second thoughts on their chosen method of ending their life. Claw marks on the necks of self-hung individuals show their desperation to remove the choking cord. Jumpers who live because of human intervention, talk about the utter dread of what they are doing the moment they fall Why is there such thing as a suicide attempt? etc. im sure you get the picture
Wether you argue that these individuals were attention seekers and not ready for death, or not, it still stands that the survival instinct bred into us from the word go, upholds. Those organisms that did not hold an immense survival instinct were history, their genes were not repeated through natural selection. We have it lucky nowadays, we hardly have to fend for ourselves at all. Are we bored with our current society? Is there nothing to do except get high or kill ourselves?
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Larrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 11,004
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#654204 - 05/30/02 05:30 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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my fear isn't really of death, it is of the process of dying, and of the concept of non-existance. even hell would be better than to simply cease to be.
larry
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RIP Acidic_Sloth
Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011
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jono
misc.
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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"my fear isn't really of death, it is of the process of dying, and of the concept of non-existance"
I can understand a fear of the pain of the process of dying, but what if death happened instantly? (please note: I accept your point of view, but I am just interested to know your reasons behind it)
Also I think (again only my view) the concept of your own non-existance shouldnt worry you, because it is logically impossible for a concious entity to comphrehend its own non-existance.
Try to imagine yourself not existing? I dont think it can be done. Try to imagine yourself totally unconcious even, once again I dont think it can be done. Once you are dead, there wont be any "you" as such to be concerned with its own non-existance.
Also if it is non-existance you are concerned about, try to imagine the period of time before you were born; That 'eternity' of non-existance. It was a period of non-existance for you, but surely it is absurd to think of it as worrisome.
I think most arguments about the fear of death sort of misconstrue the picture. People often try to imagine what it would be like to be dead, as if death itself is a state that 'you' can experience. I think death will be as equally experienceable as being unconcious or asleep would be.
There is a really good quote from Lucretius on this, he says "But even in sleep, when mind and body alike are at rest, no one misses himself or sighs for life. If such sleep were pro-longed to eternity, no longing for ourselves would trouble us."
Im more inclined to think that the fear of death entails the fear of loss of future possibilities, rather than non-existance. Or perhaps a fear of the unknown as has been pointed out by others previously.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Jono.
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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton
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deepr
the dancer
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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 Re: Thanatophobia [Re: jono]
#654691 - 05/31/02 12:12 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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thats an interesting point jono.... I used to think that an eternal sleep would be like hell because it would be stimulus deprived, and only capable of recycling your thoughts... although when I wake up from an intense dream (most mornings) I regret waking up and long to live in the surreal world created in my head.. If the chance exists that our conscious lives on after the bodies death, there is just as much possibility that it could interact with other souls that had been released from their mortal grip..
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gumby0zero
Stranger
Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 10
Loc: Montreal, Quebec
Last seen: 22 years, 8 months
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 Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#655035 - 05/31/02 05:37 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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death is only the end of life.
a great man once said,
"as a long day brings happy sleep
so the long life brings happy death."
Death is what lies beyond. People do fear this, because they are not ready to accept the workings of nature. The world we live in implies that humans are not animals, and this leads us to believe that we are somehow above death. This is why people are shocked at the thought of dying. The truth is, we are but creatures on this planet, and therefore death can and will come to us. When it does come to me, i will accept it as the end of my life, and regret that I will not be able to see what becomes of the world afterwards.
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be at peace.
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Sclorch]
#655497 - 05/31/02 09:27 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"It would, however, piss me off if I died before I could accomplish a few of my life goals."
-No, it really wouldn't.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: Jared]
#656009 - 05/31/02 02:02 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sclorch: Yes it would.
Jared: No it wouldn't.
Sclorch: WOULD!
Jared: WOULDN'T!
Sclorch: *picks up rock* WOUL.... aw.. fuck it.... *drops rock*
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: Thanatophobia [Re: ]
#656297 - 05/31/02 04:49 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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The moments before death intrigue me more then actually dying. Knowing your life is ending, what state of mind will prevail? You have an idea of whats important in your life, but when the moment comes, how will you choose to leave? Will you cry that its not your time yet? Will you make your peace in the final moments ? Will you gain an understanding above all that you learned in this world?
One thing is for sure, I want to experience the dying part of death, I want to feel every moment and know that its happening.
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