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InvisibleSilversoul
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Idealism and the environment
    #6376553 - 12/16/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Does idealism(in the philosophical sense) have anti-environmental implications? Afterall, if the physical world is an illusion, then why should we take care of it? Some of the extreme Gnostic beliefs even consider the material world to be evil. This doesn't sound like the kind of attitude that would foster a sense of stewardship towards the environment. This is why my grandfather, a theologian, rejects pure idealism. In a sense, I kind of agree with him, and lean more towards his concept of dipolar theism. Also, for this reason, my interest has drifted away from traditional Gnosticism(though I still consider myself a Gnostic) and more towards the Kabbalah. I feel that Kabbalah is more sophisticated in its understanding of God, the spiritual world, and the physical world.


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6377146 - 12/16/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Is the Kabbalah that seems to be enjoying increased popularity today authentic or is it just a rip off?


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OfflineLion
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6377152 - 12/16/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

If you enjoy interacting with the natural environment then you should fight to preserve it. No belief system is more right than one which agrees with your own sense, experience, and wisdom.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: gregorio]
    #6377331 - 12/16/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
Is the Kabbalah that seems to be enjoying increased popularity today authentic or is it just a rip off?



Well, the Kabbalah Centre in Los Angeles is the focal point where many of the modern celebrities such as Madonna and Mick Jagger go. My understanding is that it's come under heavy criticism by both traditional and modern Kabbalist schools. I don't want to get into the game of saying what is "authentic" Kabbalah and what isn't, because I believe that any belief system should be able to adapt to the times. I don't know enough about the Centre's teachings to say whether I agree with them or not.

Anyway, I was only bringing up the Kabbalah to illustrate what I was talking about. I'd prefer not to have this thread derailed into a Kabbalah discussion, though I'm fine with discussing it to the extent that it is relevant to the topic.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6377664 - 12/16/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

This is why my grandfather, a theologian, rejects pure idealism.

wouldn't this be an appeal to consequences? there are good reasons for rejecting idealism, but that's not one of 'em.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: wilshire]
    #6377709 - 12/16/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I guess that didn't come out right. I guess it would be more accurate to say that he sees that as a problem for idealism. I'm sure he has other reasons for rejecting pure idealism(I say "pure" because he is not a philosophical realist either, but rather believes in a philosophy which attempts to reconcile the two).


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OfflineCerebralFlower
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6377979 - 12/16/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

real kabbalah cant be studied by women you know? Or I should say isnt allowed to.. I dont htink thats a good basis for a religion.
You say the pyhsical world is an illusion but it is not. Just because we can percieve everything physical doesnt mean what we do percieve is just an illusion. I guess you know, our eyes translate waves into colors, and that may be an illusion... i dont get it. You cut yourself on a nail and you bleed, why take care of it? Why not just rot and let it get infected so you die? Physical does matter.
Or why eat. Youre eating something physical and its going into your physical body and replinishing the physical as well as the metapyhsical.
Why not pour all your oil and detergent into the water your well? Then drink it..
you have to realize the balance of physical and metapyhsical, pyshical is the basis here for anything mental. If your ancestors believed your theory and poisoned the earth you wouldnt be alive.
Take care of our earth.
Physical is the other half


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play



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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6378050 - 12/16/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Does idealism(in the philosophical sense) have anti-environmental implications? Afterall, if the physical world is an illusion, then why should we take care of it?




This does not seem logically sound. Pure nihilism would have anti-environmental implications, because then the physical world would be thought of as nothing more than "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..." Which may be true. Appeals to consequences are logically invalid, after all.

But idealism is not related to this perspective. To me, it would seem an idealist would care more about the environment and the world around him, because if all an individual has is his experience, then it is up to that individual to make the experience as clean as possible, and for most this would include protecting the nature they perceive to exist around them. Materialists would easily be able to overlook the importance of the environment in their individual experience and therefore work towards goals like money or fame without caring about the environment, because, after all, they're just one bundle of cells in a physical universe.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6378060 - 12/16/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

This same line of thinking was used frequently by Nietzsche to attack Idealism, Platonism, and Christianity. He saw it as a sign of weakness and decay.

"Just like the priest, the idealist has all the great concepts in his hand (-and not only in his hand!), he plays them out with a benevolent contempt against the 'understanding', the 'senses', 'honours', 'luxury', 'science', he sees these things as beneath him, as harmful and seductive forces above which the spirit soars in pure self-sufficiency... So long as the priest, that denier, calumniator and poisoner of life by profession, still counts as a higher kind of human being, there can be no anwser to the question: what is truth? One has already stood truth on its head when the conscious advocate of denial and nothingness counts as the representative of 'truth'..."

"Once the concept 'nature' had been devised as the concept antithetical to 'God', 'natural' had to be the word for 'reprehensible' - this entire fictional world has its roots in hatred of the natural (-of actuality!), it is the expression of a profound discontent with the actual..."

Although, as Wilshire pointed out, it is a argument from consequences. If Idealism is true, then worrying about the environment (as in the physical world) would be pointless since it is just an illusion. It doesn't seem as if there could be a worthwhile attitude of environmental responsibility if the environment doesn't really exist.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6378103 - 12/16/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If Idealism is true, then worrying about the environment (as in the physical world) would be pointless since it is just an illusion. It doesn't seem as if there could be a worthwhile attitude of environmental responsibility if the environment doesn't really exist.




Idealism talks about what exists, not what doesn't exist. The only aspect of reality an individual can actually know to be true subjective to him or herself is the experience. The environment is not an illusion, because it is a concrete part of the experience perceived by the individual everyday, and if the individual values his experience, as is the main point of idealism, then why would they have a negative attitude towards the environment?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Ravus]
    #6378129 - 12/16/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You make a good point, but I think you're refering to the idealism of someone like Berkeley or Hume rather than that of Plato or Gnosticism.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6378142 - 12/16/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Probably. Plato was a bore, yet Hume was one of the greatest philosophers of all time, so it's likely there are different forms of idealism being discussed.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: Silversoul]
    #6378158 - 12/16/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

We seem to be treading the same path with regard to Gnostic and Kabbalistic thought. 'Tikkun' - 'reparation' seems a more Compassionate way than withdrawal/rejection/flight.

Once upon a time I encountered your question in a philosophy class wherein another prof came in to introduce a new course on philosophy and ecology. I was steeped in Vedantist Advaita philosophy and suggested the same question: why worry/act if 'it's all perfect?' the prof of the new course simply dismissed that perspective as being 'too high.' And now, as I read yet another book on Indian philosophy - one that nicely illustrates the differences between Kapila's Sankya, modified and pure Advaita, Ramanuja's system, Patanjali's Yoga, etc. I am 30+ years older and a weency bit more 'together.'

The squalid material conditions of India reflect this pure Idealism whether the population knows the differences in these schools or not. In the US, crass materialism with its narcissistic personality disordered adherents manifest the opposite condition: plastic-surgery-addicted 'Malibu Barbis' living in obscenely expensive Malibu beach homes expressing ultimate consumerism as 'God.'
The Way (to live) acknowledges Purusha and Prakriti, Brahman and Maya, Shiva and Shakti, God and Wisdom, the One and the Many, and therefore 'cleanliness [and by extension enviornmental health] IS next to Godliness.' Another way of saying it is that The Way in a Taoist sense constellates harmony and order. Both cultures are out of harmony, not in The Way.

Lust-driven humanity is succumbing to an AIDS pandemic for example. Higher intellectual and moral aspects are being neglected resulting in sexual transmission of the virus. Whole tribal societies will vanish. Higher consciousness transcends power motives and greed. Dictators want H-Bombs to enforce their power trip, expand earthly aquisitions, control and conformity over freedom and life. Higher consciousness is 'Shiva,' Power is 'Shakti.' As Ram Dass once said: 'Shakti without Shiva is just Hitler.' Balance, Harmony, Tiphereth.

Good Night.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Idealism and the environment [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6378335 - 12/17/06 12:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CerebralFlower said:
real kabbalah cant be studied by women you know? Or I should say isnt allowed to.. I dont htink thats a good basis for a religion.
You say the pyhsical world is an illusion but it is not. Just because we can percieve everything physical doesnt mean what we do percieve is just an illusion. I guess you know, our eyes translate waves into colors, and that may be an illusion... i dont get it. You cut yourself on a nail and you bleed, why take care of it? Why not just rot and let it get infected so you die? Physical does matter.
Or why eat. Youre eating something physical and its going into your physical body and replinishing the physical as well as the metapyhsical.
Why not pour all your oil and detergent into the water your well? Then drink it..
you have to realize the balance of physical and metapyhsical, pyshical is the basis here for anything mental. If your ancestors believed your theory and poisoned the earth you wouldnt be alive.
Take care of our earth.
Physical is the other half




while i dont dissagree with the points you make, i always like to comment on the question of whether the world is real. it comes down to a matter of perspective or how you define real (take note i am not denying the need to take care of the world, even if it is an illusion, it is an illusion which must be cared for).

essentially though, the world is percieved with the mind and thus the physical world as we know it is a mere mental conception. of course one could claim that real physical objects must exist outside the mind in order for the mind to percieve them, but this is not so if you adhere to the view that only Spirit is truly real. the entire universe could be composed of information which only manifests when acted upon by a consciouss mind. in other words, the physical and the meta-physical are all a part of one continuum, which is the only thing that is real.


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