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OfflineSirTripAlot
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There you go, Redstorm.............
    #6375892 - 12/16/06 03:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

From a Republican, more or less..........


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/15/D8M1ILB00.html

A former Georgia congressman who helped spark President Clinton's impeachment has quit the Republican Party to become a Libertarian, saying he is disillusioned with the GOP on issues such as spending and privacy.
Bob Barr, who served eight years as a Republican congressman before losing his seat in 2002, announced Friday that he is now a "proud, card-carrying Libertarian." And he encouraged others to join him.


"It's something that's been bothering me for quite some time, the direction in which the party has been going more and more toward big government and disregard toward privacy and civil liberties," said Barr, 58, a lawyer and consultant living in Atlanta. "In terms of where the country needs to be going to get back to our constitutional roots ... I've come to the conclusion that the only way to do that is to work with a party that practices what it preaches, and that is the Libertarian Party."

Barr said he has no plans to run for office. In his new role as the Libertarian Party's regional representative for the South, he will help promote the party's message and recruit candidates, he said.

Barr helped manage the House Republicans' impeachment case before the Senate in 1999.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6375895 - 12/16/06 03:32 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

!!!!!!!

That is fucking great!


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: Redstorm]
    #6375901 - 12/16/06 03:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Although I am far from a full blood Libertarian, I would like to see some political party arise, past that whole "independent" thing......


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6375918 - 12/16/06 04:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Damn, I was just getting ready to start a thread on this.

Maybe if a few more high profile political leaders make the switch the public as a whole might be more inclined to consider the Libertarian party come election day.

I hope so. I think the present two party system is the cause of most of our problems and needs to be demolished by a strong third party (or whatever you want to call it.)

Quote:

A former Georgia congressman who helped spark President Clinton's impeachment has quit the Republican Party to become a Libertarian, saying he is disillusioned with the GOP on issues such as spending and privacy.





Amen Brother.

My only question is--Why did it take you so long?


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6375920 - 12/16/06 04:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Tis a pity politicians cannot tell the truth until after they leave office.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6376245 - 12/16/06 10:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe he's using it as an excuse to take his millions and retire early.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: gregorio]
    #6378472 - 12/17/06 03:37 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

> My only question is--Why did it take you so long?

It wasn't until the last six years that the neo-cons really came out of the closest (borrowing the republican party). They had been working in the shadows in the past, rather than the open. Both the previous election and events such as this show that the people, once they open their eyes, are not willing to embrace the evangelical/new world order BS that the neocons enjoy. (good theory anyway, donno if I believe it or not)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: Seuss]
    #6378793 - 12/17/06 10:32 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Why do you think neocon thought has anything whatsoever to do with Evangelicalism, or any other religion for that matter?. It doesn't. As to demonization of neocon policy, it must be stated that if we had acted proactively in Iran in 1980 the world might very well not be in any of this mess at all. Weakness only encourages our enemies and there was no one weaker than that asshole Carter.

I don't really see any reason that Libertarianism and neocon foreign policy principles are exclusive of each other


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6378937 - 12/17/06 12:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

I don't really see any reason that Libertarianism and neocon foreign policy principles are exclusive of each other




I was under the impression that Libertarianism tended to shy away from foreign intervention much in the same regard that it shys away from intervention into the rights and activities of individual citizens. Sort of a return to the isolationist approach to foreign policy, which is certainly the opposite of the neo-conservative agenda.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Bob Barr is a so 1997 [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6378961 - 12/17/06 12:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

FUCK BOB BARR


he let the inquisition against Clinton, then BOB was caught cheating on his wife.


He a fucking hypocrite, and the libertarian party would be better off without him.
He is politically insignificant. A Hack, and a WAS a schill to the Republicans.

What possible benefit does he bring to libertarians?


--------------------
Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
Tomato-Faced Banez
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438
Dexter's Thesaurus
beer = guinness
smoke = vaporize
pubers = reasons to be pro-choice


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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6378968 - 12/17/06 12:23 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why do you think neocon thought has anything whatsoever to do with Evangelicalism, or any other religion for that matter?. It doesn't. As to demonization of neocon policy, it must be stated that if we had acted proactively in Iran in 1980 the world might very well not be in any of this mess at all. Weakness only encourages our enemies and there was no one weaker than that asshole Carter.

I don't really see any reason that Libertarianism and neocon foreign policy principles are exclusive of each other





ah... no...

If we had not fucked with Iran 1960-1978, the world might very well not be in any of this mess at all.

look for the roots of problems, not when they first become blatantly apparent.


--------------------
Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
Tomato-Faced Banez
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438
Dexter's Thesaurus
beer = guinness
smoke = vaporize
pubers = reasons to be pro-choice


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OfflinePhred
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6378995 - 12/17/06 12:38 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I was under the impression that Libertarianism tended to shy away from foreign intervention much in the same regard that it shys away from intervention into the rights and activities of individual citizens. Sort of a return to the isolationist approach to foreign policy, which is certainly the opposite of the neo-conservative agenda.




There are different flavors of Libertarians, but one thing all agree on is the right of individuals (and by extension, nations) to both:

-- defend themselves

and

-- assist others in defending themselves.

Disagreements arise over exactly what actions meet these criteria, with the most fundamental disagreements relating to timing (pre-emptive vs reactive) and geography (hunt down the predator in his own lair or wait till he busts down your door).

So some Libertarians do indeed tend to appear as isolationists, in the sense that they (for example) wouldn't have approved of sending an expeditionary force into Afghanistan with the goal of capturing or killing Osama and his band of Merry Pranksters prior to 9/11... because they would see that as a pre-emptive move. Also, at that point, ObL hadn't yet attacked the US within its own borders (the geography angle).

Other Libertarians -- if they had certain knowledge the attacks were coming -- would say the best way to handle the threat is to nip it in the bud, and if that means taking action outside the borders of the US (i.e. in Afghanistan) so be it.

I classify myself as a Laissez-faire Capitalist (or Minarchist, if you prefer), but since few people these days seem to grasp exactly what that entails, I find it acceptable to let people think of me as a Libertarian, since the political party most closely aligned with the Minarchist/L-f Capitalist ethos is the American Libertarian Party. So I am one of those Libertarians who does not feel Libertarianism prohibits a nation from acting pre-emptively at a distance -- if and only if the situation warrants it in the sense that there is a clear and present danger (i.e. Israel in 1967). Admittedly, there are times when it is difficult if not impossible to be 100% certain a situation DOES warrant it. Such is the nature of life.

As a side note, for those who reflexively seize on my approval of a nation's RIGHT to assist others in defending themselves to parrot the usual "If we went after Hussein in Iraq to assist the Iraqis whose country he had hijacked, why then do we not also go after *dictators X, Y and Z* in *countries A, B and C* who are just as bad?" I will point out that "right" is not synonymous with "obligation".




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: Phred]
    #6379054 - 12/17/06 01:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

-- assist others in defending themselves.




All Libertarians certainly do not believe in this. Myself, for instance, does not. The only time we should help someone out is when our own country is also explicitly threatened.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
    #6379059 - 12/17/06 01:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDr said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why do you think neocon thought has anything whatsoever to do with Evangelicalism, or any other religion for that matter?. It doesn't. As to demonization of neocon policy, it must be stated that if we had acted proactively in Iran in 1980 the world might very well not be in any of this mess at all. Weakness only encourages our enemies and there was no one weaker than that asshole Carter.

I don't really see any reason that Libertarianism and neocon foreign policy principles are exclusive of each other





ah... no...

If we had not fucked with Iran 1960-1978, the world might very well not be in any of this mess at all.

look for the roots of problems, not when they first become blatantly apparent.




Well then one might also look a bit further back and note that the alternative to the Shah was a Soviet puppet at the height of the USSR's expansionist adventurism. I, for one, respect the choice made and the reasons for it.


--------------------


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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6379068 - 12/17/06 01:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so the cold war is the root of the problem, not our failure to act in 1980.


Hell we did act in 1980



Why else did we know they had weapons of mass destruction?


and in my opinion, the alternative to the Shah was... the peoples choice, not a soviet puppet.

Hell the Iranians and Russians are closer now then they ever were, probably because of our lack of formal relations with Tehran


--------------------
Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
Tomato-Faced Banez
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438
Dexter's Thesaurus
beer = guinness
smoke = vaporize
pubers = reasons to be pro-choice


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6379087 - 12/17/06 01:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Any honest assessment would point to the conclusion that an interventionist foreign policy drives quite a bit of hatred for the U.S.. It does little to make the average American safer either from increasingly radicalized anti-Americanism or the predations of our own government against the liberties and future tax revenue of 'we the people' in order to maintain and increase a meddlesome enemy-making foreign policy. 'American interests' is usually an euphemism for corporate interests that can be assisted by U.S. foreign policy, as well as being a code-word for emotion based desires of the masses of lumpkins who look at 'national greatness' as a source of pride to pump up their little egos.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6379136 - 12/17/06 01:42 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What is constantly lost in any dialogue I ever have with anyone below a certain age is that the Soviet threat is completely discounted. They were far and away the greatest threat to security then and, in spite of the current situational difficulties, a far greater real threat than anything since. There were millions and millions of people in Eastern Europe who wished we had been more interventionist, not less, and the Soviets were quite vocal about their desire to take over the world. A Soviet puppet in the heart of the middle East would have been a nightmare. Even with the benefit of hindsight I am still absolutely, positively convinced that supporting the Shah was the right thing to do for America and the West. Probably for the Iranians too. Life under the Soviet boot was nowhere pleasant.

As to the current state of the mullahcracy, I fully expect that there will be some serious bloodshed in Iran, and not too far off either. People there are starting to bitch about the shoddy state of their nation and the fact that the mullahs choose to send money to Hezbollah instead of taking care of their own. We'll see


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6379159 - 12/17/06 01:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
'American interests' is usually an euphemism for corporate interests that can be assisted by U.S. foreign policy, as well as being a code-word for emotion based desires of the masses of lumpkins who look at 'national greatness' as a source of pride to pump up their little egos.




As to this, I find it noxious nonsense. Corporations are owned by people. The knee-jerk anti-corporate nonsense expressed here is just that, nonsense. As to "emotion based desires of the masses of lumpkins" it too is crap. Any twaddle you may have absorbed from your left-wing America-hating apologist professors is accepted as gospel and everybody with a counter opinion is an over-emotional "lumpkin". No, I suspect that excess emotion is mostly a characteristic of the overwrought anti-corporate doomsayers. I certainly am not. Nor am I a "lumpkin". Nor do I have any respect for anybody who might, after all my posts, harbor any notion that I myself am such. They just can't read or think.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6379367 - 12/17/06 03:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I find corporations, through out the centuries of incorporated business, is to seek and make a profit, if this means dealing with a corrupt dictatorship in the name of profits, we should seriously analyze our corporations.

I can think of numerous times Corporations and foreign policy had conflicts of interest, United Fruit in the 1950's in Central America, British Petroloeum in Iran,Oil in Peru, And many other countries where governments were overthrown to protect corporate assets against nationalized thirld world industries.

Infact IBM helped the Nazi's with their database and clerical work for slaughtering millions of people, and other major business chains did business with many corrupt individuals.

I dont think we should hamper business, im a free market person but i think their needs to be accountability with our countries corporations, it seems these days ethics are sacrificed for profits.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: There you go, Redstorm............. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #6379422 - 12/17/06 03:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I know your IBM thing is bullshit and I think you are completely naive if you think it is possible to do anything at all in business without dealing, knowingly or not, with corrupt individuals. The answer is to prosecute the corrupt individuals. It is ludicrous to demand that no company can deal with, say, Nigeria because it is riddled with corruption. Or Egypt. I could go on, but it would be pointless.


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