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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Diploid]
    #6376557 - 12/16/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

That closed rigidity is par for the course where ever religion and superstition exit.




Not necessarily. I would argue that most of what is called 'religion' today is not true religion, but rather a more dogmatic, indoctrinated, perverted form of what was once surely true religion.

The word religion comes from religio, "to bind back or very strongly to the Truth". So the heart of religion is about really SEEING or experiencing Truth, not about holding a set of beliefs.

Science, likewise, is also about getting to the Truth. "Science" comes from scire, "to know". Science is about knowing, not about believing.

Quote:

Indeed, as we commonly think of science and religion, each claims an attribute that more naturally (and properly) belongs to the other. While religion is commonly thought to be about belief, its natural concern is actually with Knowledge, with knowing. And while science is thought to be about actual Knowledge, and fancies itself to be independent of belief, it is in fact inherently quite dependent on it.

...

The fact is that science needs belief. It can't function without it. science requires that we construct conceptualized versions of the world. It needs us to break the world apart so that we can examine it. This isn't wrong; indeed, there's great value in it. In this sense, then, science makes greater use of belief and is more dependent upon it than is religion.

In contrast, for religion to function properly - that is, for it to help us open our eyes to Truth - it shouldn't require belief. After all, religion is fundamentally about direct Knowledge of Truth. Thus, all religion needs to require of people is an earnest desire to know, to see, to wake up. This is enough.

Unfortunately, in practice, religion makes wide use of beliefs - beliefs about how we got here, what our purpose is, where we're going, and so forth - all in a desperate attempt to make sense of the world and our experience in it. As Joseph Campbell put it, religion short-circuits the religious experience by putting it into concepts.

But for religion to continue to function at its best, it would do well to get out of this business of belief entirely, to stop forming inevitably inaccurate conceptual models of Reality. This has become more properly the territory of science, not religion.




- Steve Hagen


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: dblaney]
    #6376707 - 12/16/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

so religion is really not about believing either
it is to bind back or to re-connect
no belief is involved
more it is a
reawakenning
via
reconnecting.

with all that is happenning.
while belief is usually going to sleep and dreaming.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6376777 - 12/16/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
That all the things you hold sacrosanct will be found to be a belief that the world is flat.



I encounter that view every day in this forum. Sure, I'll entertain the possibility. Doesn't mean it's right, and it certainly doesn't fit with my personal experiences.




That's all I'm asking.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Diploid]
    #6376784 - 12/16/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Who here can entertain the possibility that all of your beliefs about spirituality and God etc., will be found to be incorrect

I asked sorta the same question a while back. It made the believers uncomfortable and most refused to entertain even the mere possibility that their beliefs may be wrong.


That closed rigidity is par for the course where ever religion and superstition exit.




It may be par but it's not true of every one you're refering to. Silversoul for example.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6376961 - 12/16/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

:laugh:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6377958 - 12/16/06 08:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Who here can entertain the possibility that all of your beliefs about spirituality and God etc., will be found to be incorrect in the face of our future evolution of awareness?

"Only a madman is absolutely sure."  :wink:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6378898 - 12/17/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I knew the shroomery was an asylum of sorts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMosis
miserable cunt
Male
Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 169
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379113 - 12/17/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

All of our "beliefs" are incorrect, and ridiculous at that. Man created God. The supernatural is a byproduct of superstition, which stems from human insecurity.

Evolution is not a belief. Evolution is fact. Natural selection is the theory.

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Mosis]
    #6379124 - 12/17/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mosis said:
All of our "beliefs" are incorrect, and ridiculous at that.



Yes, including these beliefs:
Quote:

Man created God. The supernatural is a byproduct of superstition, which stems from human insecurity.




--------------------

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379203 - 12/17/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i do. evolution is extremely well-supported theory and there would be nothing remarkable about it if it didn't happen to contradict the creation myths of some popular religions. but we are not talking about biological evolution, are we?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: wilshire]
    #6379237 - 12/17/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Right, I'm talking about the evolution of awareness. I think our physical evolution may be about completed. Awareness however seems open ended but we have a lot of old programs (God etc.) to throw out. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379246 - 12/17/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Right, I'm talking about the evolution of awareness. I think our physical evolution may be about completed.

biological evolution is still happening to us and will continue to happen as long as we're reproducing sexually.

Awareness however seems open ended but we have a lot of old programs (God etc.) to throw out.

i don't think that evolution is a very good metaphor for changes in technology, science, or culture.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: wilshire]
    #6379260 - 12/17/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)


I know we are still evolving physically, I just don't think it is in any major ways. But that's a guess


I'm not using it as a metaphor for those things. I'm talking about spiritual/emotional evolution.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/17/06 12:45 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379263 - 12/17/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think that awareness progresses according to the "rules" of evolution.  At the basic survival level, our level of awareness of our immediate surroundings can be a life-or-death issue.  On the higher levels, awareness seems to progress in an individualistic manner.

For example, all the humans currently alive on the planet are physically equal in evolutionary terms.  They are not, and (IMO) will never be equally aware. (Barring some highly unlikely 2012 magical happening. :rolleyes:)

I would call the development of awareness non-progressive, non-linear and almost entirely individual in nature.  For example, a number of people may agree to believe that the existence of God is a certainty, whereas other individuals see it as uncertain or unlikely.  It seems a remote possibility that we will all ever agree that "our" beliefs have been disproven. 

Unlike humans, beliefs are not born--they are imagined, created, crafted, or dogmatically accepted by those who did not create them.  Since they were never born, they need not die.  This eliminates survival of the fittest as a criteria for beliefs.

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379281 - 12/17/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

spiritual/emotional evolution.

which falls under change in science and culture. biological evolution is not a good metaphor for it.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: wilshire]
    #6379306 - 12/17/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

spiritual=science?

I can see culture.

Please give me a better "metaphor" then because I don't give a fuck as long as people get what I'm talking about and stay on topic. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/17/06 01:02 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Veritas]
    #6379317 - 12/17/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So because there is no "evolution" there can be no paradigm shift for humanity?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379324 - 12/17/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

what are you really asking? if people are capable of changing their beliefs in light of new evidence or philosophical arguments?


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: Icelander]
    #6379357 - 12/17/06 01:15 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Not because spiritual beliefs are not bound by evolution, but because the process is individualized.  I don't see a paradigm shift happening on a large scale, much less a global shift which reveals to all humanity that their previously-held, faith-based beliefs were erroneous.  What would initiate or promote such a shift?  Why would everyone be affected?

Humanity is not an entity, but a mass of individuals.  Our physical survival may be influenced by the same variables, and thus human evolution is somewhat uniform.  Spiritual development/wisdom is not governed by the same rules.  :shrug:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who believes in evolution? [Re: wilshire]
    #6379369 - 12/17/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
what are you really asking? if people are capable of changing their beliefs in light of new evidence or philosophical arguments?




Something along those lines.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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