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Invisibleagar
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Artificial Bulk Substrate
    #6365014 - 12/13/06 06:32 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Artificial Bulk Substrate

COIR
Coffee Grounds
http://www.sunset.com/sunset/garden/edible/article/0,20633,1208232,00.html
Brown Rice Flour
(best made at home with a coffee grinder)

Basic nutrient ratios:
75% Coir, 20% Coffee Grounds & 5% Brown rice flour.
Additional additives (if available):
1. Store bought bagged composted poultry manure (no more than 5%)
2. Blood meal (no more than 1%)
Note, do not use poultry manure & blood meal combined.
3. Kelp meal, or liquid kelp extract (no more than 1%)

For moisture retention, (if available) add Vermiculite.
Combine ingredients, hydrate, pasteurize & cool to room temperature, before use.


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InvisibleUnderNose
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: agar]
    #6365037 - 12/13/06 06:52 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Hello agar.
Looks nice & easy.
Do you have any pics of shrooms grown with that substrate recipe.

I have been using something like this just a little different, Good for a quick bulk substrate.
What do you think about my ratios

70% coco coir
16% Coffee
10% gypsum
2% stevia leaf
1% horticultural lime
.5% vegetable oil
.5% seaweed extract

These are the results.
Uncased substrate block.------Same substrate but cased.


It produces some nice shrooms but I still like poo.
I never really thought about adding BRF to my coir substrates for a nutrient boost.

Edited by UnderNose (12/13/06 07:02 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: UnderNose]
    #6365062 - 12/13/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

What's the artificial part? It sure seems having BRF exposed in a non-sterile substrate is an invitation to contaminants.
RR


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6365108 - 12/13/06 07:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

>>>>What's the artificial part?<<<<<

Meaning other than h/poo, manure, or compost.

LOL, okay.
delete the BRF, if one doesn't want to risk it.

It's not all that big a risk, if pasteurized first.
Then, spawn added to a sanitized tray, in a G/B.
Then, tray covered with cling wrap (with G/E provision) & masking taped down.


I masking tape down the cling wrap & use micropore tape, over holes in the cling wrap, for gas exchange provision.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: UnderNose]
    #6365117 - 12/13/06 08:02 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think your ratio's a good.
Second thought.
RR is probably right about the BRF.
If one doesn't have a g/b, or f/h to work with.


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InvisibleUnderNose
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: agar]
    #6365130 - 12/13/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

g/b...f/h. :what:
Ya got me there whats that, Maybe I'm to stoned & tired it is 2am here at the moment. :yawn:
Hang on I just got one of them, Flow Hood. :foreheadslap:

I see no problem with using the BRF if the substrate is pasteurized, Anything to make our little friends grow better & more potent is fine with me.

Whatever happened to making a gourmet substrate.
The finest of fine ingredients.

Edited by UnderNose (12/13/06 08:20 AM)

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Offlinerygo796
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: UnderNose]
    #6365170 - 12/13/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm with RR when he asks, what's artificial? The basic recipe boils down to coconut husks and coffee beans.

Wouldn't the coffee make this recipe to acidic/basic(i'm unsure which way it leans on the scale but I wouldnt think its neutral)

How would you rate this compared to straight H/poo...would you ever consider a similar recipe replacing the coir with H/poo?

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: rygo796]
    #6365177 - 12/13/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

g/b glove box
f/h flow hood


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6365232 - 12/13/06 09:01 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It sure seems having BRF exposed in a non-sterile substrate is an invitation to contaminants.
RR




Absolutely.  I've been playing with this in almost the exact ratios agar described above, except I was using rye flour.  I actually got the idea out of TMC... don't remember the exact passage but there's a blurb about supplementing a bulk substrate with a small amount of rye flour in those late stages...

At any rate, first try seemed encouraging, nice healthy crop.  Next try I went without as a sort of pseudo-control, just as nice a healthy crop.  Third time, rye flour back in, same results.  Fourth time, I decide to up the amount of rye flour a bit to see if there's really anything to this... not so nice!  Green mold shortly after casing... and it appeared to be coming from underneath... broke up the substrate before throwing it out to analyze, green through and through from the bottom to the top.  Definitely happened in the substrate.  Coincidence?  Maybe... doubt it... all was properly pasteurized "by the book" by the way.  Maybe making up your trays in a gb or in front of a hood could alleviate this - I'm not going to put in the effort to add 5% more to my bulk and I'm not going to trade the convenience of spawning in open air on the kitchen counter :smile:

So granted none of this was very controlled or there's obviously not a big enough sample to really draw concrete conclusions, but I certainly wasn't impressed in the end.  The whole time I'm asking myself what's this little bit of rye flour I'm sprinkling in here *really* going to do?  It doesn't seem like enough to effect change, and too much causes contamination.  I've never lost bulk trays to green before they even fruit... so it wasn't very encouraging.  When it did work, I didn't see any significant difference to really convince me it was having much effect either.  Seems like you're playing with fire without any real reward if it works.

I'm also sketchy on all the other special ingredients.  Its a lot of running around finding exotic items, spending money on them, mixing them together, and so on.  I'm not convinced its worth the effort.  I can pull crops of mushrooms off wbs->coir & coffee so dense that another single solitary mushroom wouldn't have had room to grow - and potent too.  It gets to the point that there's simply not much room for improvement :smile:  Interesting stuff to experiment with maybe, but IMO better technique beats exotic ingredients hands down...

There is one elegant solution to increasing the nutritional diversity of your coir grows.  Use better spawn (a mix of WBS & rye is probably tops), and use more of it.  1:1-1:2 ratios with coir will knock your socks off performance wise.  Pretty straightforward.

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Invisibleagar
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: rygo796]
    #6365312 - 12/13/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

rygo796 said:
I'm with RR when he asks, what's artificial? The basic recipe boils down to coconut husks and coffee beans.

Wouldn't the coffee make this recipe to acidic/basic(i'm unsure which way it leans on the scale but I wouldnt think its neutral)

How would you rate this compared to straight H/poo...would you ever consider a similar recipe replacing the coir with H/poo?




The object is for folks, who cannot find there own source of free h/poo.
Or don't care to pay big bucks & shipping for it.


I have tons, yes TON'S of h/poo.
Not everyone is so lucky.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: creamcorn]
    #6365335 - 12/13/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm also sketchy on all the other special ingredients. Its a lot of running around finding exotic items, spending money on them, mixing them together, and so on. I'm not convinced its worth the effort. I can pull crops of mushrooms off wbs->coir & coffee so dense that another single solitary mushroom wouldn't have had room to grow - and potent too.




I don't disagree.
Coir, coffee grounds is not hard to find.
Nor, is a bag of composted poultry manure.


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: agar]
    #6365346 - 12/13/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i currently have 2 bags of coir mixed with rye flour colonizing.
they were sterilized and spawned, so far it seems as if the bags with the rye flour
added are a tad quicker in spawn run than the just-coir bags.

i wonder if there will be a visible difference when it comes to fruiting.


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Offlinerygo796
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: ohmatic]
    #6365730 - 12/13/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think the hardest part about finding exotic ingredients is knowing where to look or keeping an eye out whenever you are at a store.

From the sounds of things PH isn't an issue with the coffee addition.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: agar]
    #6366069 - 12/13/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Coffee grounds.. does that have to be used or unused grounds, or doesn't it matter?

What pasteurization method was used? How much water should be added?

From the sound of it 3:1 coir/coffee would be good too.


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Offlinerygo796
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: Asante]
    #6366109 - 12/13/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

As far as water...just like any other bulk until you squeeze only a couple drips come out.

3:1 = 3 parts coir 1 part coffee so thats about right...pasteurize as normal bulk

I have heard people say that it should be used coffee grounds others say it doesnt matter, but I don't know an answer from experience on this, I always use used. I could see unused coffee being to strong for this...i imagine using coffee grounds kind of 'leeches' the strength out of it.

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: rygo796]
    #6366136 - 12/13/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

damn I can't wait to get my  greenhouse! i'm gonna go bulk and use coir! just look at oatmans thread and feel the power of coir!!  :evil:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: Asante]
    #6366208 - 12/13/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Coffee grounds.. does that have to be used or unused grounds, or doesn't it matter?

What pasteurization method was used? How much water should be added?

From the sound of it 3:1 coir/coffee would be good too.




3:1 seems a bit steep, although it may work out fine. I used a pots worth (12cups) of SPENT grinds/1/2 brick of coir/1/4 cup of hydrated lime. It really gets the PH up there, but works perfectly. Pasteurized then spawned. It works pretty good IMO for an alternative. You can also add 1 cup of store bought manure/humice in the mixture also.

Edited by Hotnuts (12/13/06 03:59 PM)

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: agar]
    #6366460 - 12/13/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

you mentioned vermiculite for moisture retention. as i plan to not use poo over the winter (no real reason just don't want to dig up old frozen shit and freeze my ass off), i'm gonna give coir a shot. how much verm would you add to the mix, i plan on using 80% coir 20% coffee grounds 1 % Blood meal (I chose this because I have plenty of all this stuff already)... and are these percentages that i should be using by weight or volume?


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Edited by tickettothemoon (12/13/06 03:11 PM)

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #6366598 - 12/13/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

verm is ph neutral and has no nutes in it whatsoever. You really don't need it but if i were you i wold add 20% verm to 80% of the mixture. Percentages here usually are by volume unless otherwise noted, I wouldn't imagine people here like using big scales for this.

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: rygo796]
    #6366663 - 12/13/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree. Most of the vermiculite i've had my paws on was highly acidic.

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: Hotnuts]
    #6366721 - 12/13/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

interesting read on vermiculite pH: http://www.schundler.com/pH.htm

anyway, if just using coir & coffee, there's really no need for it.  coir has awesome texture when properly hydrated and moisture retention (look at how big the stuff expands when water is added).  if adding other additives, some vermiculite might be in order to keep an airy texture with even moisture content, conducive to healthy colonization.  as you gain experience you'll know what a "good" texture is, sprinkle verm in and mix until you reach that point... otherwise its a little hard to describe, and tough to give recipes as to how much of this or that to add without knowing exactly what other additives you might be working with.

as for the other question on coffee content, yeah by volume.  its really not so critical.  if you use a LOT of coffee, consider testing for pH and using a small amount of pH buffer to compensate, coffee grounds have a pH of about 5.5, and coir itself is also slightly acidic.  many report great success ignoring the pH issue all together though, so don't get your panties in a twist over it :smile:  coffee will mold FAST though given the chance, pH buffering is like taking out a contaminate insurance policy.  if you're concerned or face problems, use a little less coffee... some is a lot better than none, and hey, at least its not too much. :wink:

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: Asante]
    #6367132 - 12/13/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Coffee grounds.. does that have to be used or unused grounds, or doesn't it matter?

What pasteurization method was used? How much water should be added?

From the sound of it 3:1 coir/coffee would be good too.




Spent coffee grounds, as in "used".

IMHO, best pasteurization for small amounts of substrate is in plastic bags, in a pot of hot water. Monitored with a probe thermometer.
It is straight forward, simple & very accurate.


Trivet is used to keep bags from contact with pot bottom.

But, this method does take some time.
To shorten that time, you hydrate all material with hot water, have the water in the pot - already HOT, then, add the bags to the pot.



You can also (pre-heat) the bags in a microwave.
Just enough the content gets warm.
But, be careful nuking, as you can go over 180F.
Unless you monitor it closely.

Substrate moisture content should be 70%, +/- a point or 2.

Standard hand squeeze test works.
If you pick up a handful & it doesn't drip.
But does drip, with a firm gentle squeeze.
When you squeeze it.
You are in the neighborhood.
Warning, if water POURS out. That is to moist.

C:N ratio of coir can range from 60:1, to 190:1.
Depending on the source.

On average it has a C:N ratio of 104:1
(lignin,31%) and cellulose 27 %)

Coir has to very high water holding capacity.
5 to 6 times its dry weight.

The object of adding spent coffee grounds (C:N ratio of 24:1), is to improve the nitrogen content of coir.

The most efficient way to improve the C:N ratio(besides adding coffee grounds) is to make a slurry from blood meal, or composted chicken manure, then hydrate the coir with that fluid.

Warning, blood meal is "N" hot.
Adding to much can have negative effects.

If adding vermiculite.
It should also be hydrated with a high "N" slurry.
Which effectively turns it into a high nutrient carrier.


--------------------

Edited by agar (12/13/06 06:46 PM)

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Offlinephoenity
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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: agar]
    #6404196 - 12/28/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I plan on giving this recipe a try. I have a horse farm down the street but I really don't care to be messing with manure in winter.

After colonizing the spawn what do you suggest using for the casing?

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Re: Artificial Bulk Substrate [Re: phoenity]
    #6405624 - 12/28/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

After colonizing the spawn what do you suggest using for the casing?




50/50+ (peat/verm, pH adjusted)

Use pH strips, to insure it's close to 7.5 or 8.


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