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Offlinefunkyjunky
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Reverse Peephole
    #6355890 - 12/10/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I finnnnnnnally got stoned and of course ideas start poppin' into my head... As I was applying electrical tape to my peephole (makes it look like lights are off from outside), I began wondering, since the peephole is just a concave or convex lens, the reverse design at the proper focal point would reverse the view.  Since I live in a one-room studio apartment, this means anyone outside could see my entire dwelling without my knowledge!  I did a google search and lo and behold  Reverse Peephole Scope  showing exactly what my paranoid mind was dreaming up.

Question is, would this type of surveillance require the same type of warrant as other spying?  Like phone recording, infrared, internet monitoring.  Because: plain sight requires no warrant, even if binoculars are used, afaik.

egad, i'm outta tinfoil for hats!  :tokeeporder:


--------------------
Long Live the Shroomery
Peace

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Invisiblerod
Ψ
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Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 3,727
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: funkyjunky]
    #6356004 - 12/10/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well you got me thinking, so I went outside,
but I cant see shit.

I dont know about the legal thing.

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: funkyjunky]
    #6356076 - 12/10/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Using some device to look through a peephole that you normally can't see through definitely doesn't sound like 'plain-view' to me.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
TTAGGGTTAGGGTTAGGGTTAGGG

Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: dblaney]
    #6356278 - 12/10/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know.

You're just reshaping the light that is already escaping the apartment. Using binoculars you're bending the light you wouldn't otherwise be able to see.

Neither is fair, but if something is seen through your window with binoculars, without a warrant, I doubt it would be thrown out.

Some doors have a little metal flap over the inside peephole. I would either get that, or some duct tape, or a piece of fabric and a velco-pad sticky thing if I were concerned.

Thanks for bringing it up though.


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: funkyjunky]
    #6356302 - 12/10/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

what's a "peephole" :confused: ?

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: OJK]
    #6356346 - 12/10/06 11:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It's a circular piece of glass, about a centimeter in diameter on a door.

It's curved on the outside convexly, so that someone on the outside can't see in as the light is scattered, but from the inside you can see who is out there. The curve makes it possible to see pretty far to the sides of the area outside your door.


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: funkyjunky]
    #6356674 - 12/11/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> Question is, would this type of surveillance require the same type of warrant as other spying?

My guess is that the lower courts would see this as looking in a window. They would take the attitude, if you don't want people looking in your peephole, then you should cover it. The higher courts may disagree, but unlikely.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: funkyjunky]
    #6356891 - 12/11/06 06:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

just keep it covered up. you really shouldn't have anything in view anyway. it's probably the number one cause of drug busts in homes of casual users, reverse peephole or no.

i don't think that the courts would see using a lens to look into a peephole in the same way they would see looking in a window. the police would probably need a warrant.


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6357039 - 12/11/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Koala Koolio said:
It's a circular piece of glass, about a centimeter in diameter on a door.

It's curved on the outside convexly, so that someone on the outside can't see in as the light is scattered, but from the inside you can see who is out there. The curve makes it possible to see pretty far to the sides of the area outside your door.




whooah!

clever!

Thinking about it, I guess I have seen those before in North American films and TV :o

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: OJK]
    #6357227 - 12/11/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yep, "we" are big fans of having the peephole camera view in movies. Actually, when doing a movie in highschool we used it. Actually just put the camera up to the peephole and it worked out really well.

Anyway, it's true that you shouldn't have anything in view of the door in the first place. People tend to be curious when walking by, and peep a look when the door is open. Especially if you're that guy who's always up to something in his apartment and never communicating with the neighbors. :wink:


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
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Registered: 02/11/05
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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6373244 - 12/15/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No, using this without a warrant is highly illegal.

In your home, you should expect a reasonable degree of privacy. The degree lessens when you open a window or open your front door.

A peephole is designed to make it unviewable from the outside.

Using devices to circumvent that protection and view the inside of a home would be considered illegal. Binoculars do not circumvent designs meant to protect your privacy; therefore they are legal to use.

Same applies FLIR scans. Even though its just the heat that naturally radiates from the home, it still circumvents the privacy afforded by the walls surrounding your home.

Any competent lawyer could easily get the evidence gathered from such a investigation thrown out of court.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382237 - 12/18/06 04:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> Any competent lawyer could easily get the evidence gathered from such a investigation thrown out of court.

I think "easily" is a bit too optimistic.  I wouldn't bet my freedom on it.  Police are allowed to look in windows.  I don't see how a peephole is any different.  If you don't want somebody looking in, then cover it up.

> Using devices to circumvent that protection and view the inside of a home would be considered illegal

Cool.  Please site the releveant public law.  Thought so...  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
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Registered: 02/11/05
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Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Seuss]
    #6382354 - 12/18/06 07:27 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss, you seem a bit jumpy and rude...

> Cool. Please site the releveant public law. Thought so... :rolleyes:

You apparently dont know public law. I would do your homework for you, but please get a grip and clue before you open your mouth.

"Unlike a garbage search, defendants experiencing an FLIR-device search do not voluntarily emit the heat this equipment detects, cannot foresee this kind of search on their homes, and cannot avoid this form of detection."

Its already been held up in the supreme court, same principle. Please, get a life and an education before you become such a self righteous smartass.

"Recently the Supreme Court found that the monitoring without a warrant of an electronic beeper inside a private residence, where the beeper was not observable to the naked eye, violated the Fourth Amendment.[6] "For the purposes of the [Fourth] Amendment, the result is the same [as for a physical search without a warrant] where, without a warrant, the Government surreptitiously employs an electronic device to obtain information that it could not have obtained by [unaided] observation from outside the curtailage of the house."[7] Thus, the monitoring of the beeper while it was inside the residence infringed on the homeowners' reasonable expectation of privacy and violated the Fourth Amendment."

COULD NOT BEEN ATTAINED FROM THE UNAIDED EYE...

Christ you say the dumbest shit sometimes Seuss...

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
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Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 107
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382360 - 12/18/06 07:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss - are you really that stupid? You really cant see the difference between an open window and using tools to monitor a home?

Do you even have your JD? How about a BA or BS? Have you even taken a introductory civics, pl, or cj curriculum?  :rolleyes:

Maybe before you give advice that could hurt people, you should know what your talking about? You dont even have the credentials most uneducated police officers have, and your interpreting law?

When the supreme court has upheld numerous cases dealing with unwarranted searches based on the exact same collection criteria, it is law. Hence, supreme court. Would you like the case #'s?

Youve hit your limits on drugs my friend... take a break and step away from the pipe...  :bouncysmoke:

Edited by Bluemoondreamer (12/18/06 08:09 AM)

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
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Registered: 02/11/05
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Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382427 - 12/18/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

FYI - your referring to the division of constitutional law, not public law as a whole. Your also trying to interpret law that has already been interpreted and upheld numerous times in the supreme court.

Here you go - Ill do a little bit of your homework for you -

No. 96-30333

[o]ur fellow circuits have, we think, misapprehended
the most pernicious of the device's capabilities. The
machine intrudes upon the privacy of the home not
because it records white spots on a dark background
but rather because the interpretation of that data
allows the government to monitor those domestic
activities that generate a significant amount of heat.
Thus, while the imager cannot reproduce images or
sounds, it nonetheless strips the sanctuary of the
home of one vital dimension of its security: `the
right to be let alone' from the arbitrary and discre-
tionary monitoring of our actions by government
officials.

No. 85-1027

"Probable cause is required to invoke the "plain view" doctrine as it applies to seizures. It would be illogical to hold that an object is seizable on lesser grounds..."

Edited by Bluemoondreamer (12/18/06 08:33 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382446 - 12/18/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

before you give advice that could hurt people

I don't see how advising people to cover their peephole, just in case, is bad advice or likely to get anyone hurt.

Quote:

If you don't want somebody looking in, then cover it up.




You don't need a JD to see the sense in that ^^^ suggestion.

And all legal technicalities aside, I think we all know that cops frequently break the law. They may not be able to directly use all the information they garner through illegal surveillance (looking in your peephole, for example), but that information can tip them off and subsequently lead to legal and sanctioned surveillance that will hold up in court even if the surveillance that started the ball rolling won't.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
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Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 107
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382457 - 12/18/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Finally, borescopes (what you call people looking in your peephole) have been used in law enforcement for ages, and are classified under surveillance - and require a warrant to use. (have required warrants to use since its introduction)

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
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Posts: 107
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382462 - 12/18/06 08:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Obstructing windows, mail slots, and peepholes generate suspicion quicker than hearsay could. Its commonly referred to and viewed as criminal activity.

In fact, thats in the top ten list distributed by the dea on how to spot grow ops etc. Ill pull the exact pamphlet after class.

*so yes, that information could gravely hurt another individual, especially if they are not under investigation. If a peephole is covered prior to executing a search warrant, it could wind up with the inhabitants shot and killed. If you dont understand how this could happen, Ill gladly explain.

Covering up a peephole is asking for trouble. And a covered peephole is easily and legally discovered from a good distance from the entrance of a home.

Edited by Bluemoondreamer (12/18/06 08:58 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Bluemoondreamer]
    #6382555 - 12/18/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Obstructing windows, mail slots, and peepholes generate suspicion quicker than hearsay could. Its commonly referred to and viewed as criminal activity.

I don't buy that for one minute. Lots of peepholes come equipped with a sliding cover. If simply moving into a place with a built-in peephole cover can get you investigated, or worse, shot, we're in more trouble than I thought.

Same goes for curtains obscuring the view through your windows.

Now, if you're ALREADY under surveillance, then I can see how extraordinary efforts to conceal your home can raise suspicion, but by that time, you have bigger problems than an open peephole.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineBluemoondreamer
Stranger
Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 107
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Reverse Peephole [Re: Diploid]
    #6382794 - 12/18/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Over simplifying it like a covered peephole will get you investigated and shot, sure, you would be fool to think like that.

Im not going to argue by playing on words, but if the DEA specifically lists Obstructed windows, mail slots, and/or peepholes as a top sign of illegal activity going on, it isnt the smartest thing to do without any justification.

And yes, some homes come with peep hole covers. Most apartment complexes, low income housing, and condo's do not. Covering immidiately makes it stand out by simply glancing over one wall of apartment door covers.

Curtains obscuring your windows, and blacked out windows are different things, again, an over simplification of the subject does not apply.

If the DEA specifically lists obstructed windows, mail slots, and peepholes as key indication of grow-ops, why the hell would you say its a smart thing to do?

Allow me to over simplify your statements. Put duct tape on your peephole, place duct tape over every seal on your doors (because if police break the law all the time as you say, they will just simply use a fiber optic camera through the seals of the door once they see the blocked peephole), and blackout all your windows so that not a single pinhole of light escapes your place (because after all, thats all they need for a fiber optic camera, and by your words, they break the law regularly when using surveillance tools).

That would completely stupid and would get anyone busted. If you live in a place like a uniformly built apartment complex, condominium, or housing project, dont do something stupid like covering your peephole. If they ever have a reason to look at you, thats one more reason to keep on looking. That is received as paranoid behavior, and while it occurs in people who are not breaking laws, it will justify the reasons why they may have reason to look at you.

If they cant look in your peephole without warrant, just the same as using fiber optic camera's under your door or through a window corner, its a paranoid step that simply very few people take, and could possibly hurt someone in the long run.

That is all I stated and I back it up with alot more than just my feelings. No one said window curtains will get you shot or investigated, that was a horribly inept response. And yes, if you do anything illegal, you run a risk of being searched. And if your searched, and they shoot you, they have a simple excuse - "The place was blacked out, we had no way of seeing what was occuring at the time of entering, that playstation controller sure looked like a gun to me"

All I said in my above post was that his advice COULD get someone hurt, when it is a pointless measure. In fact, if they used a borescope illegally to bust you, you would have a good case for your lawyer to argue. If you think a covered peephole protects you in any way shape or form, it doesnt. If they want to illegally look in there, they will do it peephole or not. If you get shot during a raid, obstructing the view and officers safety will be used as their excuse, and has already been accepted as a defense in legal procedings. Ill post two cases I know of if interested.

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