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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6333250 - 12/04/06 05:27 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Self Programming...yes, I have been doing a dismal job of focusing my energy, thoughts and feelings in a positive direction. I know this and have known for some time but I continue to program a painful experience. It is what I choose though I don't know why.

You choose it because it's the known. For almost all constructed personality structures an unpleasant known is preferable to any unknown.

It's never too late to live your life as a warrior. Only at the moment of death have you run out of time.

As far as I'm concerned that's the only worthwhile thing to do with our time here. Good luck brother.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6333355 - 12/04/06 06:03 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Wow, what a beautiful experience. Thanks for sharing that. :heart:
yes yes yes, thats the sort of memory I was talking about to search for that would bring a state of renewal of purpose and direction back into your life.

I find, the energy that is associated with the memory, never died in the past. It always exists on some level and we just left it, it never left us and it can be found again and applied to the current circumstances in ones life.

Often, it takes some dip digging and junk garbage removal to get to it again. :lol:

Interesting how a crisis can divide a couple or bring them much closer together. If that is able to happen, it means, you have a strong friend in the other who understands you and wants the same things from life. It shows, when times are the toughest and roughest, that person does have your back, even though during the daily grind, it can seem like they are against you. :crazy:

When my husband gets his head to buried in his work, he starts to loose to touch with whats going on with my daughter and I and starts questioning things and doesn;t understand and it feels like he is against me, when it was all stuff he strongly supported in the first place when he was in tune and in touch.

Never fails that a mini to major crisis comes up that shakes him from his slumber and he sees it and gets it again and the support and understanding returns and is renewed.

Maybe whatever the idea of acting on the Big Desire is, is a subconscious way of creating one of those crisis to help pull you together together again in a way that will make you feel understood, appreciated and supported again in your daily doings.

Thats why you haven't acted on the big desire yet. Something in you, just wants the good back and forgot the way too it. Creating a crisis situation can sometimes be it.

Thats a last ditch measure. I found instead that using the memory renewal idea, is enough to get ME acting and seeing differently again and somehow, that changes the nature of the behavior of everyone around me bringing it all back in sync with the energy that creates everything in balance and harmony like it was in the time of the memory.

You have one of those to work with.

Don't get me wrong, there are the times where he is like, where in the hell is your head at, when I've drifted miles away from being close in touch and in tune with him and what gives the union its life and breath together.

Either way, we both feel so glad when we get our senses snapped back in tune with each other, before we did anything radical to pass the point of no return.

I'll say this, if you have good friend in the other when times are critical, who is someone you truly respect and admire, there is no better to be found then that. I think you have that with her and you know it.

With the demands and responsibilities of parenting and paying bills, life can grow tiring for the individual and couple unless regular moments of renewal are practiced, individually and together, self renewal doing the things you enjoy as an individual and then couples renewal, doing something you enjoy together MINUS the kiddies. Sounds like that is something you two haven't been spending enough time doing as so many couples don't. The ones who I see that make it, are the ones who practice it regularly.

Hubby and I are working better at getting better at that as I get really to caught up in mom responsibilities and he gets to caught up into paying the bills responsibilities. It wears thin on the individual and the couple.

Get a baby sister, the kids will be fine, and plan a week end together to share all of this with her and work to find the best of yourselves in each other again. start giving yourselves "me" time and be supportive of the others "me" time. Thats what gives you something new to bring to the table to share to keep it fresh.

If you feel into a flat out communication break down, with walls to high and think to conquer on your own, couples therapy can knock away at them pretty quickly and help couples to see things from the others point of view better when a third person is validating to be there and real, what we started ignoring or refusing to believe and accept coming form our partner.

Those walls are usually made of ice and its amazing how a hearts that been warmed again by really feeling the pain of another and the warm tears of "I didn't know you really felt that way and were hurting so much" start to flow that the walls melt down.

Well, I leave off here for now.

:heart: :sun: :heart: :sun: :heart: :sun: :heart: :hug:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6333583 - 12/04/06 07:15 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

As anyone with at least two decades of adult life on the planet knows, insatiable desire is the proverbial path to perdition. It should be viewed as a big red flag, and is in no wise any means to one's salvation. That desire is the cause of suffering is what Buddhism is based on. The Old and New Testaments are rife with mythic examples of the same point (Samson and Delialah, David and Bathsheba, Hosea and Gomer, the 'woman taken in adultery,' etc.). You're no doubt right about the direct proportionality of desire to suffering, but from where I'm sitting, your conclusion about the nature of fulfillment is radically wrong. Desires are endless and satiation of one desire leads to further desiring, not cessation of desire, nor of suffering.

Meanwhile, Compassion includes a component of detachment, because to act Compassionately or altruistically means that one acts because one is aware of a moment in which suffering can be prevented or eliminated, and in acting thusly for the benefit of others (or for oneself), one is not acting for personal gain. Compassion is therfore selfless, whereas desire is all about selfishness and maintaining the illusion of separateness. It is paradoxical, our insistence on selfish needs, which are directed towards a form of unity - sexual union in the case of desiring another. This type of unity is not ultimately fulfilling and insisting that it is is the epitomy of learned ignorance. Every Enlightened mind tells us as much, if not our own life experience. But, if you're like most people, you'll just have to discover this the hard way. I wish for you peace instead. Peace is not "boring" friend, peace is fulfillment - the end, not the mistaken means.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6336074 - 12/05/06 01:11 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Source said:
What that thing is doesn't matter.  What does matter is that it is simply not possible for me to have this thing without giving up everything else in my life and causing suffering to others.

For this reason I have not pursued it..





One would presume that you wish to not engage in action that would bring others to inflict suffering upon themselves because you know what it means to suffer, that you personally have suffered. Do you think so?

Quote:


On a personal level, I feel that having this thing would be my salvation.  Without it my life is bleak, despairing and hellish.  With it, the possibility of eternal sunshine and happiness.




If we are focusing on practical, real-life spirituality here, I must ask you why you would entertain the possibility of eternal sunshine and happiness if your desire was fulfilled. For instance, who would experience this state upon fulfilling the desire? Also, what are you comparing your life to in order to determine that your life is bleak, despairing, and hellish? An idealized state of being that only exists on a conceptual level, perhaps? Experiencing life as bleak, despairing, and hellish would suggest that a problem exists in the specifics of your life-situation, externally or internally (usually internally :wink:), but the problem is not life itself, and one could not think that there would be resolution in fulfilling this desire.

Quote:


If suffering is proportional to desire then I am truly plumbing the depths of suffering.  Yet the idea of giving up my desire fills me with black dread.  The dream of obtaining my desire is both my only light of hope and the most painful thing in my life.  For the sake of the light, I endure the pain.




Suffering is not proportional to desire - suffering results when one is attached to fulfilling one's desire. One inflicts suffering upon oneself when one's expectations and demands of reality are not fulfilled, as a means intended (rather short-sightedly, I would think) to motivate oneself towards fufilling the desire.

Quote:


I know I could drop the desire.  But if I do I will never experience what my heart has always longed for.




Which is what, exactly? Release from the desire? It would seem that the desire is a single-pointed formation from a general, unspecific feeling, quite possibly related to suffering itself, feelings of incompleteness... rooted in fear....

Quote:


  Without it I think I can see how the rest of my life will play out - Cold, isolated, barren and lonely.




Such would seem to be a projection that is self-fufilling, as you are responsible for your experience of reality, your emotional state of being. Why would you think your life would be cold, isolated, barren, and lonely?

Quote:


Even the experience of total peace...without desire, without suffering without self, nirvana...seems boring compared to having what I truly want.




Boredom is the result of an expectation of reality not being fufilled. Personally, I find that reality itself is quite fufilling, interesting, and an entire list of awesome adjectives, possibly due to the fact that it is, most certainly, the only game in town. :smirk:

Quote:


I have practiced self denial my entire adult life.  I have sacrificed my life for others.  I harm no one.  Time and time again I deny my own desires to give others what they want and the end result is that I am not happy.  If I were to die right now I would land in hell.




The only manner in which one could deny the self is through enhancing one's sense of self, which, of course, is quite ironic. :grin: Denial and transcendence are two entirely different approaches, and one of them is rooted in furthering the self. The interesting thing about transcendence is it doesn't translate into losing anything, it doesn't mean one has limited one's options on how to act, and it allows one to experience and perceive reality to a greater degree. :cool:

Quote:


I don't like hell.  I have to choose.




It comes by itself. Let it. There is much potential for experience and change in the meantime.

Quote:


So which is better, obtaining the hearts desire or letting go and possibly finding the peace that always seems to elude us?




Living one's life to its fullest and immersing oneself in the experience all the while is the better option. :thumbup:

Quote:


What I desire is real.




Perhaps it is, yet your present experience of reality is real, and your desire is not sustainable.

:levitate:




Hi Fireworks,

Yes, I have suffered.  As has everyone else I'm sure.  I wont claim to have suffered more than others but I think I am unusually aware of the suffering I cause.

When I say that the fantasy of obtaining my desire is that of 'eternal sunshine and happiness' I am describing what I truly 'think'.  Yet I know on another level that this is bunk.

It's an interesting period in my life because on the one hand I have understanding and experience that tells me the truth of life and how to just be at peace, but at the same time I have this desire that is completely contrary to everything I know.

I just want to be honest.  I know and understand much and can talk and act like a sage if I want, but I still indulge in what is detrimental to my own well being.

What am I comparing my life to when I describe it as bleak?  Good question!  I wish I had an answer.  And because I don't have an answer I see your point.

Why do I think my life would be cold and barren without fulfilling my desire?  Again it is just what I think and feel.  This is, as you said, what motivates us to try to fulfill the desire.  It is part of the attachment.

It is so absurd.  I KNOW that obtaining my desire will not alleviate my suffering.  I know that to let go of what I want the world to be is the only solution...but I DON'T WANT TO.

In the end, we all have to choose.

When I say I have 'denied myself' I don't mean it in the right (transcendent) way.  I think it is just that I felt that for ME to be happy I had to make others happy.  This is still completely rooted in selfishness because my ultimate aim was to find my own happiness through the happiness of others.

Thanks for the reply Fireworks!

Reading through my posts, GOD I sound like such a pathetic negative nilly!


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineSource
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
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Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The BIG Desire [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6336086 - 12/05/06 01:13 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Source said:
How do we reconcile the two?

Buddha said that the root of all suffering is desire. Desire is non-acceptance of reality. So to be free from desire is to accept what is.

Yet, it seems as though to accept the world as it is - with all its suffering, greed, ignorance - is to not act to change it. Clearly the world must change, we must act. And yet again, if we act from non-acceptance, from our own desire to change the world to suit our ideals we will unknowingly contribute our own suffering into the world. Our very actions infused with our personal desires (even our desire to help) will turn to folly and screw things up more.

So, how do we accept the world as it is and also act to change it?

My guess is that we must first absolutely and completely accept everything in the world as it is right now. We must have no personal desire to change anything.

The world is the face of God. Destruction, death, starvation, Wall-Mart, corporate-slavery, Bush, greed, environmental destruction, terrorism, bombs, pesticides and the suffering of our children...they are all manifestations of reality - of God. It is a test. Can you accept it or are you trying to change the world into what you want it to be before you accept it? Are you trying to change God before you agree to accept it (him/her/whatever)?

If you are trying to change the world because you refuse to accept it as it is you are acting from your own personal desires - your ego. And it shouldn't take long before you realize that all the other ego's out there trying to satisfy thier own desires are the cause of all the suffering you want to end. Don't add your ego to the mix. You can't fight fire with fire.

If you want a revolution because you refuse to accept reality you will only start the same thing all over again. It won't be a true revolution, you'll just be repeating the same crap.

If you have trully accepted the world you will have also transcended your personal desire to change it, you will have transcended your ego. And it is only here that true positive action can take place.

Those who have completely accepted the world still act. Buddha taught the mind teachings, Jesus preached the Kingdom of God and healed the sick. Were they trying to change the world to suit themselves? I don't think so. I think that when we have transcended our desire to change the world, we see clearly for the first time.

And what we see is the flow of the universe. We surrender ourselves to this flow. Our lives become an instrument through which this flow acts, not from our own personal desire, but from the will of God. We become an agent through which God participates directly in the lives of mankind. The reverberations of such a person echoes throughout space and time and changes the very foundation upon which all of mankind rests.

This is what we are called to be. This is how we can accept the world and at the same time change it in a more profound way than you can imagine.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2463659#2463659

:levitate:




Thanks for digging that one up!  Now if I could only practice what I preach!  :crazy:


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Icelander]
    #6336094 - 12/05/06 01:17 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So are you contemplating suicide?




The thought crosses my mind occasionally but no, I wouldn't say it is a contemplation. If I were going to give up, I would buy a sailboat and sail around the world before I would consider killing myself.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6336100 - 12/05/06 01:18 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I read through a lot of your old posts, and remembered them when I did. You definitely seem to have an understanding that is reflective of reality. I personally have not focused as much as I "should" on applying my understanding directly in my life, but its a process. Some moments I'm feeling in sync and, in others, a little out of it. :grin:

Best of luck to you, my friend! :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6336361 - 12/05/06 02:53 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
So are you contemplating suicide?




The thought crosses my mind occasionally but no, I wouldn't say it is a contemplation.  If I were going to give up, I would buy a sailboat and sail around the world before I would consider killing myself.




Yes sailing or any ol thing your heart desires. The problem for us is we save those things for some special moment in the future that usually never comes. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Icelander]
    #6336561 - 12/05/06 03:42 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Source said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
So are you contemplating suicide?




The thought crosses my mind occasionally but no, I wouldn't say it is a contemplation.  If I were going to give up, I would buy a sailboat and sail around the world before I would consider killing myself.




Yes sailing or any ol thing your heart desires. The problem for us is we save those things for some special moment in the future that usually never comes. :mushroom2:




This is revealing too. What is keeping you from taking sailing adventures in your current life?

You can plan weekend and week long get aways. This is what I was talking about , about not having to be a martyr and making time for self renewal by allowing yourself time to be something but a husband, father and provider -(doing what your job title is because its clear, you get little to no satisfaction for that as well source).

Allow yourself to be a sailor once in a while, and ask for your families understanding and support in your need to just feel the freedom of riding with the winds, the sea spray on your face and that warm sun at your back. The freedom to explore new coves and ports of call and the different peoples that inhabit them.

Every so often, take your family to share in that passion with you if they wish to come along from time to time. Ask them to from time to time and give them the chance to share in it with you as well, so they can see, how much you come alive when out sailing and exploring.

If money or time is what has been keeping you then you now have better clarity of where to make adjustments in your life. For example, when we moved to Chicago to bring my daughter closer to family, I knew my husband wasn;t in his element and missed the water and is a sea man at heart. Money was extremely tight when we were there as well.

So, we researched the yacht clubs off lake Michigan and found people who regularly sailed in races for fun looking for crew. He use to go with them every Saturday, for free and we encouraged him to take the time away from us too do it.

There are ways to find to be able to do what you really enjoy without it costing a lot and ............

I bet your family would rather have you leaving for some week ends or week long get aways then leaving for good if you put it to them like that.

I would. There is nothing wrong with laying down ultimatums for how the compromising is going to have to work if its going to work. Allow your wife to take the time to do the same and support and encourage her too. She may decide, she doesn't need anything extra and would be fine with it. Let her negotiate a fair compromise from you in return as well.

Make Tuesdays nights devoted to doing what the kids enjoy.

Families have to learn how to negotiate compromises for it to work to everyones general better then worse satisfaction, if a family unit is going to work to the general better then worse satisfaction of everyone.

It can be done and families are doing it. You can too and its not to late to change course and take the helm on this one here:wink:

:heart: :sun: :heart: :sun: :heart: :sun: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6340222 - 12/06/06 01:19 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I am feeling pretty good right now. Got a handle on things.

I was going to make some more responses (to Jiggy, Markos...) but I realized that in order to do so I would have to enter that negative space again and thought better of it. I have to appreciate theses times when I have them.

So, for now, thank you all so much!

If I find myself stuck again I will probably come back on and vent some more.

Let me just say this. I know that what most of you said is true. It all boils down to how I choose to feel. How I spend my energy in thought, feeling and action. Accepting the world as it is. Giving up my attachment to fantasies and desires.

I was going to write that my particular life circumstanes may make it more difficult for me to choose a happier state of being, but I am not sure that is true.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6340268 - 12/06/06 01:29 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Source, back in the day, when I was participating in this forum quite actively, honestly seeking to know, to understand, and to work with others to share perspective, you were definitely seen as a contemporary, of being "where its at" as well. :grin: Just thought I'd let you know. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The BIG Desire [Re: Source]
    #6340325 - 12/06/06 01:38 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I was going to write that my particular life circumstanes may make it more difficult for me to choose a happier state of being, but I am not sure that is true.

You have your particular life experience because it's exactly right for you. The biggest challenge offers the biggest reward. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSource
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Registered: 07/28/03
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Re: The BIG Desire [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6341637 - 12/06/06 07:55 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Source, back in the day, when I was participating in this forum quite actively, honestly seeking to know, to understand, and to work with others to share perspective, you were definitely seen as a contemporary, of being "where its at" as well. :grin: Just thought I'd let you know. :thumbup:




Thanks Fireworks!  :thumbup:


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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