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Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism
    #6332045 -

President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has won a third term in office, securing a clear lead over rival Manuel Rosales.

With most of the ballots counted, Mr Chavez had taken more than 60% of the vote, officials said.

The president, who has secured the support of the poor by using oil to fund welfare, told crowds his left-wing "Bolivarian revolution" had triumphed.

"Today a new era has started, with the expansion of the revolution," he told tens of thousands of jubilant people.

Venezuela was firmly on the track to socialism, said the president, who has vowed to boost the social programmes that won him support among millions of impoverished Venezuelans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6205128.stm

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6332054 -

Bet that made Pat Robertson's day!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm


--------------------
Once the sin against God was the greatest sin; but God has died, and those sinners died with him. To sin against the earth is now the most dreadful sin, and to esteem the entrails of the unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth!

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Ubermensch]
    #6332114 -

:grin:

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Ubermensch]
    #6334058 -

Ubermensch said:
Bet that made Pat Robertson's day!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm


:shocked: It's always incredible when someone as consistently terrible as Pat Robertson manages to say something that shocks me. But a so called Christian explicitly suggesting that we assasinate Chavez just because he's a socialist is still a rare stomach turner :puke:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6334814 -

This is great news. If Chavez doesn't mess it up, Venezuela will be a motivating example for the rest of South America, which is sympathetic to democratic socialism.

If South America does advance socialy, more pressure will build in North America, USA, in general, to abandon neo-conservative economic and social policy.

What a breath of fresh air


Starting in early 2005 Chavez proclaimed that Venezuela is bent on constructing “a new socialism for the twenty first century.”

Edited by carbonhoots (12/04/06 11:36 PM)

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: carbonhoots]
    #6334961 -

carbonhoots said:
This is great news. If Chavez doesn't mess it up, Venezuela will be a motivating example for the rest of South America, which is sympathetic to democratic socialism.

If South America does advance socialy...


Right...

Because socialism has worked before.

The current "neo-conservative" economic policies have lead to lower unemployment in the United States than Europe (4.4% in the US, 7.8% in the EU), less than half the rate of Germany or France (4.4% in the US, 10.2% in Germany, and 8.8% in France).

Also, if you compare the Consumer Price Index reported by the ECB to the changes in wages during 2005, you'll notice that during the entire year paychecks shrank! (The numbers aren't available after Q2 2006 yet, otherwise I'd post those too, unfortunately I can't post a direct link to the pages because the websit uses forms, but you can find all the data here: http://sdw.ecb.int/ for a quick calculation, just note how unit labor costs have declined, but the inflation rate is higher than the rate at which labor productivity is increasing: i.e. companies are paying less for labor because labor genuinely costs less, not because it's more productive, meaning paychecks are going down)

The socialist nations of the world even fail at being socialist, a 10% national unemployment rate in France, but a 40% unemployment rate among the Muslim population. This from a system that promises "greater equality"!

Then we have the annecdotal evidence from what Chavez's policies have already brought Venezuela, you know things like:

Half of the workforce being forced into the "informal" economy because employment is so bad
or
Chavez's inept policies creating shortages of basic goods

Add to this the continuing housing shortage and the rising crime rates and it's fairly obvious that Venezuela is only going to implode. Unfortunately, Chavez will probably relieve the country of its oil wealth on the way down, but hey, if it takes large-scale starvation for South America to finally understand why socialism never works, so be it.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism *DELETED* [Re: Economist]
    #6334989 -

Post deleted by roby000

Reason for deletion: s

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: roby000]
    #6334992 -

It's funny, I met some Venezuelans about a year ago now (last February) and they told me a wonderful story about how the police followed them around for a month after their parents attended an anti-Chavez rally.

So, the police don't have the resources to cut the soaring crime, but they do have the resources to follow around Chavez critics...

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Economist]
    #6335289 -

The current "neo-conservative" economic policies have lead to lower unemployment in the United States

You have to compare like with like. Not the richest country in the world with one of the poorest. Compare the economic catastrophe free-market policies caused in Argentina and Bolivia to Venezuela.

(4.4% in the US

Which is still double the level of unemployment the US had in the 40's when following socialist new deal policies...

And whether or not you can place any faith whatsoever in unemployment statistics when a main plank of neo-con policy is to dream up ever more bizarre ways of cooking the unemployment statistics is another question.

Be VERY wary of unemployment figures dreamt up by neo-cons and comparing them to other countries who may not be as devious when compiling their unemployment figures.

Then we have the annecdotal evidence from what Chavez's policies have already brought Venezuela, you know things like

Why go for anecdotal evidence when you've got a crashing 60% election victory tho? To put that in perspective Tony Blair only recieved 35% of the vote in the UK. You can't argue with that.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: carbonhoots]
    #6335313 -

Quote:
This is great news. If Chavez doesn't mess it up, Venezuela will be a motivating example for the rest of South America, which is sympathetic to democratic socialism.


As somebody that lives in the latin america/caribbean region of the world, I think I am a lot closer to the reality of what is going on compared to somebody living in Canada.  This is far from "great news".  Before calling Chavez's "reforms" a "motivating example" perhaps you should move down here and experience his "motivating example" for a few years.  Your tune would change in a hurry, if you lived long enough.

Chavez rules with an iron fist using fear and terror to intimidate anybody that opposes him.  Anybody with money is immediately demonized, as they are a threat to the Chavez rule.  Once somebody has been marked by the government as a problem, they are quickly... removed... from life.

Chavez is supporting legislation to remove all state independent media.  Why?  Because non-state controlled media is obvously anti-democratic.  :rolleyes:

Chavez is supporting changes to the constitution to get rid of term limits.  Why?  Because life-long dictators are obviously pro-democratic.  :rolleyes:

It must be nice sitting up there with 5000+ miles between you and the reality of living in the poverty of the third world.  Try living in the conditions you preach as "great" and "motivational" before spouting such ignorant drivel.

Quote:
If South America does advance socialy, more pressure will build in North America, USA, in general, to abandon neo-conservative economic and social policy.


Unfortunately, what you are calling "social policy" is better described as "gang rule".  There is no equality in Chavez's "reforms".  It isn't take from the rich and give to the poor, or everybody is created equal, or we all own everything.  Chavez blames the US for all of the problems HE creates, bribes the poor for support, kills off the rich or influential, and pretends to be some kind of great savior.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6335570 -

:popcorn:


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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Seuss]
    #6335698 -

Anybody with money is immediately demonized

Do they really care tho? When they're sitting on their yachts are they really thinking "My god, Chavez has demonised me, whatever shall I do"?

Chavez isn't demonising them, he's just saying "Hey, you've got your pile now can everyone else get a peice of the pie too?"

Chavez rules with an iron fist using fear and terror

Could you provide links to your sources for any of these allegations? If he was that bad why does he win so many elections?

Because non-state controlled media is obvously anti-democratic

Well the media is certainly controlled by rich powerful forces that have nothing to do with democracy. Unfortunately poor Venezuelans don't tend to own too many media outlets. It's the rich people who hate Chavez for giving a second thought about the poor that tend to own media outlets.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: wilshire]
    #6335702 -

wilshire said:
:popcorn:


:boxerface:

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6335902 -

When I talk about the "rich", these are the people that have a few dollars in their pocket... not the yacht owners.  :rolleyes:

Try living in the 3rd world for a while before you pretend like you know what it is like.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Seuss]
    #6336245 -

Seuss said:
When I talk about the "rich", these are the people that have a few dollars in their pocket... not the yacht owners.  :rolleyes:

Try living in the 3rd world for a while before you pretend like you know what it is like.


So how do you explain Chavez getting 60% of the vote even when the entire media is blatantly biased against him? What is he doing right that the people so overwhelmingly support him? Are you sure you're as tuned into the mindset of "people in the third world" as you think you are?

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6336287 -

Its called bananas for votes, duh.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6339450 -

> What is he doing right that the people so overwhelmingly support him?

Look at Hitler before WWII, and then reask your question. A charismatic leader that embraces the poor and blames their problems on other cultures and countries...

> Its called bananas for votes, duh.

Well, in this case it is oil money for votes... but you are correct in spirit.

> Are you sure you're as tuned into the mindset of "people in the third world" as you think you are?

Considering where I live... yes... at least for people in the latin america. It is kind of hard to live with people and not be tuned into their mindset, isn't it? I wouldn't claim to be tuned into the mindset of people living in africa, for example.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6340685 -

good
someone with a nutsack to stand up to the fascist pigs of the U.S gov.
remember our constitution people, their destroying it daily

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loosechange+2&hl=en


--------------------
"the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death"

Miyamoto Musashi

Edited by 5150 (12/06/06 02:00 PM)

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: 5150]
    #6340955 -

welcome to the shroomery's political discussion board. stay a while and you'll have things sorted out in no time.  :wink:


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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Seuss]
    #6343157 -

Look at Hitler before WWII, and then reask your question

Firstly, Hitler never won 60% of the vote. Secondly when he came to power he banned elections. You can't compare the two.

Well, in this case it is oil money for votes

Yeah, heaven forbid that the oil money might actually go to the people of Venezuela rather than rich american oilmen. That would really be terrible.

It is kind of hard to live with people and not be tuned into their mindset, isn't it?

There's something wrong if you can't see a reason why they're voting for Chavez in massive numbers tho. What are you missing?

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Alex213]
    #6345158 -

Alex213 said:
You have to compare like with like. Not the richest country in the world with one of the poorest.


I was comparing the US to European Socialism. Are France and Germany the world's poorest countries in your opinion? And if so, how do you justify that?

Alex213 said:
Compare the economic catastrophe free-market policies caused in Argentina and Bolivia to Venezuela.


I would if Argentina and Bolivia ever had free markets. Can you point to a time in their history when the government actually reduced the amount of regulation, taxation, and government intervention in money markets to comparable levels within the us prior to the 1930s or after the 1980s?

Capitalism didn't fail, it never happened in the first place.

Alex213 said:
(4.4% in the US

Which is still double the level of unemployment the US had in the 40's when following socialist new deal policies...


What are you talking about? The lowest unemployment fell pre-draft was 9.9% Then, from 1942-1945 it's very low, below 2%. Once the draft ends its up to 3.9% and by 1949 it's back up to 5.9% (source: http://www.bls(dot)gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf )

So, no, the New Deal had NOTHING to do with the ultra-low unemployment, and the national draft had everything to do with it.

Alex213 said:
Be VERY wary of unemployment figures dreamt up by neo-cons and comparing them to other countries who may not be as devious when compiling their unemployment figures.


So, you're saying I shouldn't call your argument wrong just because you don't have the numbers to back it up?

Alex213 said:
Why go for anecdotal evidence when you've got a crashing 60% election victory tho? To put that in perspective Tony Blair only recieved 35% of the vote in the UK. You can't argue with that.


Argue with what? Just because many people believe in something doesn't make it right. A majority of people in Pakistan believe that Allah is going to save them. Is this proof of Allah's power to save?

60% of the people believe that Chavez will improve their lives. Unfortunately the statistics don't prove that Chavez has improved anything, and so their belief is as unfounded as the belief that Allah will improve your life.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Economist]
    #6346994 -

Talking about employmency rates isnt that a tad old fashion? We should be that advanced by now so more people can take it easy. sit back and enjoy the ride  :grin:

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Arp]
    #6347144 -

> We should be that advanced by now so more people can take it easy. sit back and enjoy the ride

We are that advanced... it is called welfare.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism [Re: Seuss]
    #6347174 -

we should have citizen salary!

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