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gettinjiggywithit said:
I just wanted to say Hi to you Source while you were here. It's been a while. Wish it was under better circumstances for you that you came back to post.  Maybe that post is yet to come after you sort all of this out.

With kids inovled this is to hard for me to speak on and ultimately you are the one who is going to have to sleep in the bed you make out of this situation, not me, so I don't feel comfortable influencing it one way or the other. I will be sending you loads of love, energy and light, to help you find your way through this.

Best wishes for all involved on this one going out!!!!!!!!!!!



I will say that it sounds like some typical signs of a mid life crisis of sorts which ussually involves a strong desire to return to the rebel freedoms of youth. It's ussually stronger in those who never experienced it once even. Maybe read up on mid life crisis and see if you don't find something to help you understand what you are going through better and how to get through it more smoothly.

It's just a maybe I thought to mention.

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I agree with much of what you posted, Jiggy.  It can make a huge difference to shift our thinking patterns toward what we want to manifest, and it is wonderful to participate in raising a child.  Whether Source is experiencing a Mid-life crisis (I think I've had three or four of those ) or not, he does have his son to consider.

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I think its such a gift to be able to give a child all of things you wish you would've had in a parent. I love that part with raising mine.

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I was raised by a single Mom, and spent many years as a single Mom myself, so I thought that the ultimate gift I could give my child was a Dad.  I imagined that all the elements of a perfect family would click into place once we were reunited.  As much as I adored my son, I felt that I had let him down by "failing" in choosing his father.

When my son was 3, his father came back into our lives.  I thought that all my dreams of a family were coming true, and ignored all the signs (STOP!  DANGEROUS CURVE AHEAD!) in my headlong pursuit.  We married next to a creek in a woodland grove, and I firmly shoved aside the nagging feeling that I was making a mistake.

I persisted in this denial for 4 years.  One day that I realized I would not be getting out of bed in the morning if I did not have a child to care for.  I detested my own company, because I had so thoroughly betrayed my intuition and needs. 

The fallacy in my thinking was that it was important to stay together "for the children."  When I considered the relationship model they were seeing, I knew that I was doing them a great disservice.  I would NEVER want my sons to grow up and treat a woman the way their father treated me!  I would never want them to settle for the life that I was living.  I filed for divorce, sold most of my belongings, and proceeded to create a life I enjoyed living.

Fast-forward 5 years (to now):  my boys are happy and healthy, and if I hesitate to get out of bed in the morning, it is because I am just too cozy under my down comforter.    I spent many years alone, devoting my energy to myself and my kids, then found a true friend and partner, who is now raising my sons with me.  Life is good.

Source, you may not need to leave in order to enjoy your life to the fullest.  It may be enough to shift your thinking, open your heart to loving those around you, and invest more energy in caring for yourself.  If you DO need to leave, realize that you will be modeling self-care and dignity to your son.  Stay involved in his life, realize that you are STILL a father even if you don't live with him.  If you stay when it is truly a betrayal of yourself, eventually you will have nothing left to give him.

I wish you joy and peace. 

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Source said:
What that thing is doesn't matter.  What does matter is that it is simply not possible for me to have this thing without giving up everything else in my life and causing suffering to others.

For this reason I have not pursued it..

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On a personal level, I feel that having this thing would be my salvation.  Without it my life is bleak, despairing and hellish.  With it, the possibility of eternal sunshine and happiness.

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If we are focusing on practical, real-life spirituality here, I must ask you why you would enertain the possibillity of eternal sunshine and happiness if your desire was fufilled. For instance, who would experience this state upon fufilling the desire? Also, what are you comparing your life to in order to determine that your life is bleak, despairing, and hellish? An idealized state of being that only exists on a conceptual level, perhaps? Experiencing life as bleak, despairing, and hellish would suggest that a problem exists in the specifics of your life-situation, externally or internally (usually internally ), but the problem is not life itself, and one could not think that there would be resolution in fufilling this desire.

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If suffering is proportional to desire then I am truly plumbing the depths of suffering.  Yet the idea of giving up my desire fills me with black dread.  The dream of obtaining my desire is both my only light of hope and the most painful thing in my life.  For the sake of the light, I endure the pain.

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I know I could drop the desire.  But if I do I will never experience what my heart has always longed for.

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  Without it I think I can see how the rest of my life will play out - Cold, isolated, barren and lonely.

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Even the experience of total peace...without desire, without suffering without self, nirvana...seems boring compared to having what I truly want.

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Boredom is the result of an expectation of reality not being fufilled. Personally, I find that reality itself is quite fufilling, interesting, and an entire list of awesome adjectives, possibly due to the fact that it is, most certainly, the only game in town.

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I have practiced self denial my entire adult life.  I have sacrificed my life for others.  I harm no one.  Time and time again I deny my own desires to give others what they want and the end result is that I am not happy.  If I were to die right now I would land in hell.

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The only manner in which one could deny the self is through enhancing one's sense of self, which, of course, is quite ironic. Denial and transcendence are two entirely different approaches, and one of them is rooted in furthering the self. The interesting thing about transcendence is it doesn't translate into losing anything, it doesn't mean one has limited one's options on how to act, and it allows one to experience and perceive reality to a greater degree.

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I don't like hell.  I have to choose.

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So which is better, obtaining the hearts desire or letting go and possibly finding the peace that always seems to elude us?

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Living one's life to its fullest and immersing oneself in the experience all the while is the better option.

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What I desire is real.

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Perhaps it is, yet your present experience of reality is real, and your desire is not sustainable.

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Amethyst said:
First thing, I wouldn't confuse egotistical desire with the hunger of the soul. 

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This statement makes absolutely no sense to me, to be entirely blunt. "Hunger of the soul"? Sounds like egotistical desire reinforced over the passage of time and constantly dwelling upon that desire. No "soul", or its hunger.

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Source said:
How do we reconcile the two?

Buddha said that the root of all suffering is desire. Desire is non-acceptance of reality. So to be free from desire is to accept what is.

Yet, it seems as though to accept the world as it is - with all its suffering, greed, ignorance - is to not act to change it. Clearly the world must change, we must act. And yet again, if we act from non-acceptance, from our own desire to change the world to suit our ideals we will unknowingly contribute our own suffering into the world. Our very actions infused with our personal desires (even our desire to help) will turn to folly and screw things up more.

So, how do we accept the world as it is and also act to change it?

My guess is that we must first absolutely and completely accept everything in the world as it is right now. We must have no personal desire to change anything.

The world is the face of God. Destruction, death, starvation, Wall-Mart, corporate-slavery, Bush, greed, environmental destruction, terrorism, bombs, pesticides and the suffering of our children...they are all manifestations of reality - of God. It is a test. Can you accept it or are you trying to change the world into what you want it to be before you accept it? Are you trying to change God before you agree to accept it (him/her/whatever)?

If you are trying to change the world because you refuse to accept it as it is you are acting from your own personal desires - your ego. And it shouldn't take long before you realize that all the other ego's out there trying to satisfy thier own desires are the cause of all the suffering you want to end. Don't add your ego to the mix. You can't fight fire with fire.

If you want a revolution because you refuse to accept reality you will only start the same thing all over again. It won't be a true revolution, you'll just be repeating the same crap.

If you have trully accepted the world you will have also transcended your personal desire to change it, you will have transcended your ego. And it is only here that true positive action can take place.

Those who have completely accepted the world still act. Buddha taught the mind teachings, Jesus preached the Kingdom of God and healed the sick. Were they trying to change the world to suit themselves? I don't think so. I think that when we have transcended our desire to change the world, we see clearly for the first time.

And what we see is the flow of the universe. We surrender ourselves to this flow. Our lives become an instrument through which this flow acts, not from our own personal desire, but from the will of God. We become an agent through which God participates directly in the lives of mankind. The reverberations of such a person echoes throughout space and time and changes the very foundation upon which all of mankind rests.

This is what we are called to be. This is how we can accept the world and at the same time change it in a more profound way than you can imagine.

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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2463659#2463659

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If you stay when it is truly a betrayal of yourself, eventually you will have nothing left to give him.

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The betrayal is a result of a mental program he has that says " I always sacrifice my wants and needs for others"

If he leaves, he will take that programming with him and recreate the same funk he is in in no time. He is and has been betraying himself from the best of himself, not the from having the best of someone else.

Getting the best of and from out of the other lover, will not solve a thing for him in the long run, at helping him to learn how to get some of the best of himself for his own self to enjoy. It will only be a matter of time before the next woman becomes a burden of sacrifice to him if he doesn't make change where the real problem here sits.

See the difference?

He can start giving more to himself while also giving to others and not have to leave a family unit that sounds, relatively strong and good, which he cares much for, too do. He's just got to start caring more for himself now while within it and quit being a martyr.

He never mentioned an abusive wife he can't stand to be with. He never mentioned an abusive mom who is horrible to his kids. He never mentioned an abusive wife and mom who is treating him like shit in front of the kids.

You did the right thing for your situation veritis.

This thing with source is the classic mid life crisis brought on by the martyr type who believes that to be a good parent and spouse, he has to deny himself from receiving good in his life, and deny himself from "self indulgent me time," as well.

Thats what golf on Saturdays with the boys is for. or anything of the similiar kin. It does married men with kids a world of good, and same with moms day at the spa with her friends.

Geez, we are talking about a family with kids here people. Doesn't that mean anything to anyone anymore?

When some fucked up disturbed kids cause havoc, who do we blame?

The parents.

Source, his wife and kids are going to have to live with the choice he makes here. Not any of us, so best we take this helpng him out here with some calm and care and time.

Unlike your situation Veritis, his kids are currently in a good environment and family home structure. He is telling us that if he leaves it, it will not be as good for them and they will a suffer a loss.

In your situation, you kids were in a bad one and you left it to make it better for them, for their sake.

He is saying, he was considering, taking away from the good they have and leaving them with less and worse, for his own sake and gain. Why does it have to come at their cost? It doesn't in this case. I doubt they ever expected him to dump 100% of who he is into their care.

A family unit can work at give and take and compromise to give everyone enough of the freedom to self indulge without ripping themselves a part or hurting each other. Of course they will be hurt. His wife and kids, all have a lot of trust vested in him right now.

That would be broken, and his kids will be left to mend that wound and hopefully, won't become weary of trusting relationships or adults ever again. They may even pick up some mild to severe separation anxiety disorders. Do you understand that now, the function and health he can provide for them is relatively good and he knows, he will incur damage if he leaves. He cares about that and I think that is GREAT!

I can't believe how quick people are to tell him to bolt, with out their taking even a second to hear that, his kids are in a good place right now with him there and that, his problem is one he will take with him into the next relationship.

No family life is perfect and no parent without their flaws. Like he needs to leave just so his kids won't see him creating the model of putting others needs before his own. Oh what a bad horrible thing for this world if they grow up doing that.-sarcasm.

Why don't we all just ditch our kids now because of some character flaws that can be fixxed, and run off with the next hottie who hasn't discovered them yet. so we can temporarily feel good about ourselves?


It's totally different then what you were in veritis and in your case, you did the smart thing in the best interest of your kids and yourself.

He knows his leaving won't be in his kids best interest and until he learns how to be good to himself and take time for himself NO MATTER where he is or who he is with, he is never acting in his own best interest. Leaving will only let some pressure out of the valve for a time and then, it is sure to build up again to near un bare able pressures if he doesn't change that program.

He'll just be leaving the next one to get some relief again, and then again with next, and again with the next.

He owes it to everyone and mostly himself to take some time, to learn how to take more "Me Time" something that gives hims a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction and validation in life, besides, being a good husband, father and provider.

As awesome as that all is, even if our families shower us with recognition and appreciation, believe it or not, for some of us, that sometimes, isn't enough because it feels expected and common and ordinary. Come in the mid life Crisis- the need to feel uncommon, extra-ordinary and doing what is not expected and you have the situation Source is in.

I'll tell you all something else. One major reason Source is feeling that way is because very few people left in todays world place any value or admirable recognition on being a good spouse, father and provider.


The world treats it like a dog shit position when it should be one held in the highest of rehard and esteem. Hard to keep your esteem up through it when all you life is about has been totally devalued by todays fucked up world.

I remember a "young" friend I met up with about a year after I had my daughter aksed where I was working these days. I told him I was a stay at home mom and he started laughing.

Thats the world we live in. Its a joke to stay home from work to raise nurture and guide your own children if you have the financial means too.


Fuck people who think that way. Arrrrrrg.

You yourself have said you've had a handful of mid life crisis already Veritis and did you ditch your kids to get some relief from the ordinary to find some satisfaction in the extra ordinary?

You didn't because you had their best interest at heart. I hope that's not what you are subtley suggesting Source should do on a whim.

If you think that is the best solution I say-

Look out Ice!!!!!! Veritis may leave her kids behind with you the next time she has a mid life crisis and comes along a potential new lover at the same time.

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This thing with source is the classic mid life crisis brought on by the martyr type who believes that to be a good parent and spouse, he has to deny himself from receiving good in his life, and deny himself from "self indulgent me time," as well.

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How can you be so certain that this is his situation?  I suggested that if caring more for himself AND shifting his thinking towards the positive was not going to improve his experience, that it might be necessary to leave.  I never said "ditch your family if you are the least bit unhappy."

Perhaps you have some inside info which I am not privy to, but based on his posts in this thread, he is not at all happy with his life. 

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gettinjiggywithit said: Energy flows where attention goes

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    Also thankyou for your family advice, I shall keep this all in mind for the day I have kids too

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fireworks_god said:

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Amethyst said:
First thing, I wouldn't confuse egotistical desire with the hunger of the soul. 

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This statement makes absolutely no sense to me, to be entirely blunt. "Hunger of the soul"? Sounds like egotistical desire reinforced over the passage of time and constantly dwelling upon that desire. No "soul", or its hunger.

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Yea I see your point Tho the context I meant was this.......

Hunger of the Soul - Desire of the heart, the need for inner joy, the natural urge to be and know thy true self......

Egotistical desire - A "want" of the mind/ego, need for pleasure, seeking happiness in something outside of yourself etc

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Source said:
How do we reconcile the two?

Buddha said that the root of all suffering is desire.  Desire is non-acceptance of reality.  So to be free from desire is to accept what is.

Yet, it seems as though to accept the world as it is - with all its suffering, greed, ignorance - is to not act to change it.  Clearly the world must change, we must act.  And yet again, if we act from non-acceptance, from our own desire to change the world to suit our ideals we will unknowingly contribute our own suffering into the world.  Our very actions infused with our personal desires (even our desire to help) will turn to folly and screw things up more.

So, how do we accept the world as it is and also act to change it?

My guess is that we must first absolutely and completely accept everything in the world as it is right now.  We must have no personal desire to change anything. 

The world is the face of God.  Destruction, death, starvation, Wall-Mart, corporate-slavery, Bush, greed, environmental destruction, terrorism, bombs, pesticides and the suffering of our children...they are all manifestations of reality - of God.  It is a test.  Can you accept it or are you trying to change the world into what you want it to be before you accept it?  Are you trying to change God before you agree to accept it (him/her/whatever)?

If you are trying to change the world because you refuse to accept it as it is you are acting from your own personal desires - your ego.  And it shouldn't take long before you realize that all the other ego's out there trying to satisfy thier own desires are the cause of all the suffering you want to end.  Don't add your ego to the mix.  You can't fight fire with fire.

If you want a revolution because you refuse to accept reality you will only start the same thing all over again.  It won't be a true revolution, you'll just be repeating the same crap.

If you have trully accepted the world you will have also transcended your personal desire to change it, you will have transcended your ego.  And it is only here that true positive action can take place.

Those who have completely accepted the world still act.  Buddha taught the mind teachings, Jesus preached the Kingdom of God and healed the sick.  Were they trying to change the world to suit themselves?  I don't think so.  I think that when we have transcended our desire to change the world, we see clearly for the first time.

And what we see is the flow of the universe.  We surrender ourselves to this flow.  Our lives become an instrument through which this flow acts, not from our own personal desire, but from the will of God.  We become an agent through which God participates directly in the lives of mankind.  The reverberations of such a person echoes throughout space and time and changes the very foundation upon which all of mankind rests.

This is what we are called to be.  This is how we can accept the world and at the same time change it in a more profound way than you can imagine.

Now, if I could just get over the accepting part!  And of course this is just my theory.  Feel free to rip apart at your leisure.

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gettinjiggywithit said:
35 is a pretty common age for it my friend. Thankfully, my husband recognized that I was feeling blah, being a mom, driving a safe SUV, always buying cloths for the little seed instead of me, just a shell of who I was in my pre mom days. All parents give up life as they knew it. Thats what we do, use the energy to foster the care and nurturing of new life. You are no where near alone in this. There are millions to billions of us.

Anyway, he traded in the SUV and got me a new red sports car  zoom zoom, (all I use to drive before) and gave me a huge shopping spree day to buy just for ME, and yada yada those little things really helped to pick up spirits and feel like the me I was missing again. I think mostly his recognition of what I was going through being a stay at home, knowing, what I was like before, meant the most, his way of saying, "I really appreciate all of you given up and do to raise our daughter like you have". He's stepped up to the plate with that stuff since too.

I do what I do because it is my choice. Doesn't mean its always been an easy choice to follow through with , with bells on my toes everyday, but I do my best and would have it no other way.

There are those Calgon days where I find myself asking, "How did I find myself here doing this? " Then, I go back in time and remember how I felt when I made the decision to dedicate and commit myself to raising a family and I'm glad and grateful to be just where I am again.

Since it sounds like you made your decision for the time being, I can be more of a support. Try going back in time and remembering that something in you that was good, that made that decision for good reasons and do what you can to regularly remember, refresh and renew that feeling of the good. It helps a lot.

If I may suggest this, you might want to pay attention to how you are programming yourself with the self talk you make, like

I always sacrifice myself for others,

This sucks

Fuck

You get the idea. Energy flows where attention goes and thats how our realities are created.

Become mindful of that self programming and even if you don't feel it now, start saying things like-

"My life is so giving to me of my wants and needs and I am so thankful for it and blessed"

"I have so much around me others can only dream of having, I am so fortunate and blessed".

You get the idea and do what you can to feel them too. Even if you have to fake it until you make it. You'll be amazed at how self fulfilling prophecy can work in the positive as well.

It really has been working for me, and more then I have been dreaming of has been coming my way lately.

I would talk with those closest to you and let them know that you need something going on in your life in addition to the daily grind of practical responsibilities, that is all about you and make room for it and ask for their understanding, help and support. Give them all a chance to give back to you and let them. Moms aren't the only ones who need "ME" time. Dads need it too. You are entitled to take it and make it for yourself. If you do, the giving won't be done with the feeling of resent and everyone will be happier as a result.

Know this as I know any woman out there with children finds a hands on dedicated Dad to be the hottest and sexiest thing in a guy. The world sure could use more them. And kids who grow up with them are becoming rarer and rarer these days. I think its such a gift to be able to give a child all of things you wish you would've had in a parent. I love that part with raising mine.

Veritis's advice works well too. As you start giving to others that which you wish to be given, you do start to become fulfilled with that energy and it does start to create reciprocal situations. It's powerful stuff when you do out of the joy of giving to others what you wish you had for yourself.

I'll keep you in my thoughts. And as you ask for continued guidance, remember to always include "For the good will of all involved". Its magical stuff. 

Love you too Source! 

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Source said:

Looking back at my life I can kind of map out my spiritual growth from magical to mythical to rational to spritual/causal (to loosely use Ken Wilber's roadmap). 

I had given up on 'Christianity' or what passes for it these days and had spent a good eight years in my rational phase looking for objective truth as revealed by science.

Toward the end of this phase my wife and I were not very close and I didn't expect our marriage to last much longer.  On top of that we were expecting twins in addition to the two boys we already had. 

We learned that there was a complication with the pregnancy and had to decide if we wanted to do nothing and let them die or employ the limited amount of medical help available at the time...creating the risk (50%) that they could be born with cerebral palsy.  Difficult decision to say the least.

Regardless of what we chose to do, in the end they both died.

One night after things settled down, I found myself wondering whether or not science could ever find the objective truth about our origins.  I went to bed with the same thought repeating over and over in my head, 'In the search for truth, what is the most important question to ask?'.

I had no idea, so I tried going to sleep.  As I slipped into what I now know as the 'hypnogogic' state, a loud voice whispered in my ear, 'Who Am I?'

I bolted awake.  Not because of the loud voice but because I knew I now had the answer to my question.  The most important question for me to ask is: 'Who Am I?'

I knew that to seek the answer to that question was to seek God.  And I knew to seek God I would have to love God.  The idea was quite repulsive as I was still holding onto a very negative conception of God.  Why should I seek God when he allows such horror?

So I prayed for the first time in YEARS.  'Give me a reason to seek you.  Give me a reason to love you'.

The next day was when the experience happened.  My wife and I had just finished eating at a restraunt.  Things had GREATLY improved between us.  The experience with the twins had brought us closer together than ever.  We had been married for over seven years yet we were in love for the first time.

We sat in the car in the restraunt parking lot and we began to talk.  She told me how the twins had seemed to buy our lives with thiers.  Like they were 'sent' and by thier own free will decided to go to help us and our children.

Regardless of whether or not this is true doesn't matter.  What DOES matter is that as she was talking it was as if God were talking through her.  All at once I experienced the greatest single mega-synchronicity ever (I didn't even know synchronicities existed at the time).  Like God was saying, 'see, this is why you should seek me, this is why you should love me.  It's all good.'

It felt like every event that ever happened in my life was comming to a culminating fruition of absolute perfection.

And it kept building and building and I kept getting higher and higher and higher till *POP*.  I was outside of myself and indeed it was 'all good'.

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