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Invisibleethnoeste
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: Grogan]
    #6322417 - 11/30/06 06:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Sterilizing will kill everything, including some bacteria that acts on your behalf to fend off contams. Sterilizing will require you to proceed in a sterile environment or risk contaminating your efforts.

Pasteurization will kill many things, but not everything, including some bacteria that help keep contaminations at bay. From what many OGs on the boards say, pasteurization is the way to go.

Although several prolific and respectable growers swear by sterilization with great results.

I think it's a choice partially determined by your set up, methods, and desired route.

I went the pasteurization route, and am waiting to see what the results will be.

Then, I might try the sterilziation route, for comparison.

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InvisibleMajorDick
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: MystikMushroom]
    #6322643 - 11/30/06 08:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MystikMushroom said:
Do you guys just use it "as is" right out of the bag?




I'm thinking if its used straight out of the bag right after its opened it would be fine. But pasteurizing will always be a good idea.

I'm actually prolly gonna try this soon on a coir *pseudo*casing if one starts to look like it wants to overlay. I may not have time to pasteurize.

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: MajorDick] * 1
    #6322746 - 11/30/06 08:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ok lots of questions here i guess i should chime in :smile:

first off lets make sure we're on the same page:



miracle gro moisture control..  note the two different bag designs, but its the same product.  its not simply potting soil, though potting soil in fact serves as a mediocre casing, roughly on par with a straight verm casing.


as for prep we got some options:

straight out of the bag - works, don't be sad if mean green drops by to check things out after the first flush. :wink:

pasteurization - the true textbook way to prepare a casing.  reduces the mold spore counts, allows bacteria to survive.  bacteria play an important role in keeping things in "statis" - that is, they actually turn it around in this stage and can help PREVENT mold contaminates to some extent on your casing.  they're also believed to stimulate pin development... bad guys to have around in your spawn jars, but good friends in a casing layer.  (i have an inkling the small amount of "forest bed compost" contained in the moisture control product actually might feed and promote these beneficial bacteria, just a theory, but you won't see any other casing layer promote SO many pins effortlessly - and i'm trying to understand why!)  the whole bacteria issue is less of an issue with cubensis, but more of an issue with other species (some in fact will NOT fruit without the presence of proper bacteria)... because cubes aren't picky, is the very reason why there's so much argument here whether sterilization or pasteurization is best - the answer is pasteurization, but not always by a noticable amount in the case of cubes! anyway enough of that tangent

sterilizing - you can load the hydrated stuff up into jars and PC them like you would anything else...

microwaving - call it "psuedo-pasteurization" or "incomplete sterilization" or what have you, its somewhere in between a true pasteurization and a sterilization.  this is what i commonly use, when i'm too lazy to set up a true pasteurization.

now, onto the question of adding verm to it.  you can.  you don't have to.  i've found it doesn't change much, but a small amount of fine verm does make it more crumbly and easier to spread.  i mainly use a small percentage (10-20%) verm in there because i have a crapload of verm to get rid of.  i wouldn't go run out and get some just to add it.

as for pH buffering... remember this is a mostly peat based product, and as such follows the same rules as using peat based mix like 50/50.  however, it doesn't seem to be quite so acidic as straight peat... samples straight from the bag have tested around the low 6's for me... whereas peat registers a high 3 or low 4 pH.  as a rule of thumb, use half the amount of buffer as you would for the peat in a 50/50 recipe.  there's a couple 50/50 recipes here so i'll leave that as an excersize in using the search engine. :smile:  i personally use hydrated lime in mine, and over time have become pretty damn good at just eyeballing it, so its kinda like grandma's cookin'.... i don't have a recipe for you. :wink:  i like to put some water in the bowl, add the lime, mix it around, then mix in the casing so that its well distributed - then adjust more water or more casing mix as neccessary  (on larger batches or when i have time, i do allow it to stand for a while, and test the pH to be sure i'm in the right range.)  of course same rule applies, 7.5-8 is optimal.  gypsum is another good additive, in the 5-10% range, as it helps hold pH stable, again helps with that "crumblyness" (like mentioned with verm), and supplies elements like calicum & sulfur to your crop.

your other option of course, is not to buffer it at all.  again, this works.  i've done it and gone 3 contam free flushes.  this casing mix, a healthy mycelial network beneath, and plenty of FAE in your FC, and you'll likely do the same.  pH buffering really is like taking out a contaminate insurance policy on your project, and definitely helps keep you in the game for those later flushes - if you're using the materials to make for a really deep substrate, you deserve to get quite a few flushes - so its a good idea.  if you're just learning, experimenting, playing around, etc, don't get so hung up on the pH buffering stuff.

hmm other tips... well sometimes you come across chunks of wood or sticks.  these should be picked out.  in fact, running it through a coarse mesh strainer of sorts would probably make the mix even better.

and finally some inspiration:


i *think* that should cover most of it, though i'm sure there will be more questions. :smile:

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: creamcorn]
    #6323167 - 11/30/06 10:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Book marked for future reference

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Blutjager]
    #6323230 - 11/30/06 11:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)


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InvisibleDihnekis
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: ]
    #6323300 - 12/01/06 01:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks so much creamcorn, that's a great guide that I'm going to follow to the letter.

How deep do you usually make your casing layer?

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: Dihnekis]
    #6324026 - 12/01/06 11:05 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Usually between 1/4" and 3/4".  Depends on the substrate thickness to some extent.  A thinner substrate (2 in or less) I'd head more towards the thinner quarter inch casing layer - which really isn't a whole lot, its just enough to cover it up so that you can't see any mycelium underneath.  If you're going deeper, like 4" of substrate, I'd head more towards the 3/4" number... use your judgement as for something in that neighborhood depending on how much substrate you're using.

I personally grow for efficiency versus total yields, I simply don't have a need for that many mushrooms, but I like to push the limits of the hobby. :smile:  Typically I use 2" substrate depths with about 1/4" casing layers and can achieve first flush densities of about 2.5oz dry material per square foot (though under those conditions expect fruitbodies around 4" tall... but lots of em!)  Not too shabby.  I know some folks like to do the 4+" deep grows for the extended number of flushes and monster fruits it can throw off... so its all up to your style and goals - don't be afraid to try adjusting things to fit. :thumbup:

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OfflinePrimate
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: creamcorn]
    #6324230 - 12/01/06 12:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

God damnit! now i gotta be trying some MGMC. Makes me wanna kick the stupid 50 pound bag of peat chillin' in my pad.

lol good stuff guys.

-Prim


--------------------
"Power to the peaceful"

-Micheal Franti and Spearhead

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Offlinespeeddealer
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: Primate]
    #6324312 - 12/01/06 12:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A friend has recently started making monotubs and tried spawning with hpoo until the surface is fully colonized and then casing with MGMC just as he's ready to fruit.

He's also tried spawning and adding the casing layer during the spawn run to let it colonize a bit.

He's noticed that he can see MANY more knots and pins when he cases AFTER the spawn run, but that he gets a higher abort rate with this method. The ones that were spawned and cased at the same time, he doesn't actually see nearly as many knots but he's seeing less aborts with this method. He assumes that the knots are just below the casing layer in a much more favorable microclimate, but he's not sure which is better or if his results are more than just strain variance or anecdotal observations. Anyone care to weigh in?

PS--he's been adding some hydrated lime and crushed oyster shells to the MGMC as he's been experiencing ph of around 6 out of the bag. He needs a better test kit...

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Invisibleodium33
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: speeddealer]
    #6325232 - 12/01/06 06:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If my calculations are correct, to mix 2 quarts of miracle gro mixture and properly balance the ph, you will need 5 tbsp of hydrated lime.


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Offlinefloyd242
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: odium33]
    #6325582 - 12/01/06 08:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

odium33 said:
If my calculations are correct, to mix 2 quarts of miracle gro mixture and properly balance the ph, you will need 5 tbsp of hydrated lime.




are you sure? that seems like a lot I thought it was only 1 tsp per cup of peat in the 50/50+

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Offlinebuddhasninja
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: creamcorn]
    #6326038 - 12/01/06 11:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That was a damn fine post. I wish I knew I could use MC before I went out and bought the peat and verm. I couldn't find either in my area so I had to buy online, and it wasn't cheap.
.
Oh, and does anybody know if you can use the Miracle Gro as bulk in a spawn bag to mix in colonized rye grass seed???


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Place the patty on a sesame seed bun, in accordance to the principle of balance as mentioned by the Buddha. This may be an ordinary bun, but a true ninja prefers to toast the bun lightly in order to better savor the flavor of his burger.

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Invisiblepoboy
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ *DELETED* [Re: odium33]
    #6326085 - 12/02/06 12:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by poboy

Reason for deletion: d



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Offlineacacia314
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: poboy]
    #6326375 - 12/02/06 02:57 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

For my first grow Im using Jiffy-mix; 80% peat moss, 20% perite, and "less than 1% lime" out of the bag.


--------------------
Here I sit my mind reposed.
Pond'ring what i do not know.

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InvisibleWIZOLZ
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: speeddealer]
    #6326546 - 12/02/06 05:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Speeddealer - A friend has recently started making monotubs and tried spawning with hpoo until the surface is fully colonized and then casing with MGMC just as he's ready to fruit.

He's also tried spawning and adding the casing layer during the spawn run to let it colonize a bit.

He's noticed that he can see MANY more knots and pins when he cases AFTER the spawn run, but that he gets a higher abort rate with this method. The ones that were spawned and cased at the same time, he doesn't actually see nearly as many knots but he's seeing less aborts with this method. He assumes that the knots are just below the casing layer in a much more favorable microclimate, but he's not sure which is better or if his results are more than just strain variance or anecdotal observations. Anyone care to weigh in?




Very cool ... A friend of mine also has done almost exactly what you are describing here but with small tray casings. Hasn't reach pinning yet, but will definitely be within the next few days. We can compare results. I find it odd that you should be experiencing higher abort ratio's from the post-cased tub...similar environments I would imagine right? so, no real variations in that factor...you really think it could be the application time of the casing mix? One or the other, they better both work.... :grin:


BTW....OLD SCHOOL 50/50 PEAT/VERM RULES !!! Don't be a slave to corporate capitalization !!!  WHHAAAAAAA..........LOL  :gangsta:  :peace:  :alert:  :ashamed:


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Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
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InvisibleOmnicracker
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #6327246 - 12/02/06 01:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

50.50


but. cheers to reinvention!


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Invisibleodium33
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: poboy]
    #6330363 - 12/03/06 02:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

poboy said:
Thats nuts.Wayyyyyyy toooo much
Quote:

odium33 said:
If my calculations are correct, to mix 2 quarts of miracle gro mixture and properly balance the ph, you will need 5 tbsp of hydrated lime.






maybe you could help me get it right instead of simply telling me that im wrong


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Offlinedalorean88
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: odium33]
    #6331128 - 12/03/06 07:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

okay. I want to know more about the microwave past/sterilize process. This sounds like a whole lot of fun! How long and at what setting will work.

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InvisibleDihnekis
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: dalorean88]
    #6331184 - 12/03/06 07:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I plan on just loading it into oven bags, and then bringing up to 160 degrees in a pot of water on the stove and keeping it there for 2 hours.

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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Miracle Grow MC vs 50/50+ [Re: dalorean88]
    #6331247 - 12/03/06 08:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

My process for microwaving:

-hydrate mix
-place in large microwave safe container
-cover with saran wrap
-nuke on high for 2 minutes, wait 15.
-nuke a second time on high for 2 minutes, wait 15 more.
-finally, nuke a third time on high for 2 minutes, wait until cool (a few hours)

you may need to adjust the numbers slightly if you're working with a very large or very small amount of casing mix - but the idea is to simply get the mixture "hot" without going too nuts, and keeping that temp up for a period of time.  its not an exact science for sure, so just use some judgement.  worst things that can happen: not enough heat - not a huge deal, we know untreated, this mix still works.  too much heat and you're bordering on sterilization rather than pasteurization - again, we know sterilized casing mixes still perform fine for cubensis, so again not the end of the world.

as for the lime, i won't leave you guys hanging any more. :wink:  it would be about 2.5 tablespoons per quart, in other words exactly what odium had said above... that's going by half of whats traditionally used in 50/50... and thinking about it now i might revise that and say round it down to 2TBSp/quart... aka a half tablespoon per cup.

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