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 inski
Cortinariologist
 
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,623
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 Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa  [Re: auweia]
#6409502 - 12/29/06 11:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Was just wondering, do these so called Psilocybe cyanofriscosa macroscopically resemble these active Psilocybe sp found in New Zealand?
I think they are macroscopically similar to Waylitjims find depicted in Workmans microscopy composite, Psilocybe sp 1.
 
inski 
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6409516 - 12/29/06 11:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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And even Paul has mistakes in all of his books.So do most of us who write them. As soon as we publish something, someone comes along and changes it. But then There is also a lot of misinformation in his books.
mj
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auweia
mountain biking
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: mjshroomer]
#6409541 - 12/29/06 11:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mjshroomer said:
And even Paul has mistakes in all of his books.So do most of us who write them. As soon as we publish something, someone comes along and changes it. But then There is also a lot of misinformation in his books.
mj
mj, I don;t think it's so much mistakes on the part of the authors, as it is mother nature herself...she makes mistakes on a daily basis, and corrects herself too
this stuff changes all the time...some species remain constant, others don't, and they change all the time
as the old hippy said
twas ever thus
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 pscyanescens
The Raindancer
Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 1,397
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6414692 - 12/31/06 10:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Aeweia: Paul Stamets wrote a book called "Psilocybe mushrooms of the world" Very popular book, maybe your have heard of it. It says that when wet cyanescens have a thin gelatinous sometimes separable pellicile. This goes for cyanofibrillosa as well. He goes further to call it a common trait of psilocybes.
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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: pscyanescens]
#6414803 - 01/01/07 12:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I actually think that many of the friscosa specimens look a lot like just plain old Ps.subaeruginosa.
MJ wrote - 'So do most of us who write them. As soon as we publish something, someone comes along and changes it. But then There is also a lot of misinformation in his books.'
I was unaware that you actually had published works on the identification of Psilocybe or other species.
Auweia wrote: 'mj, I don;t think it's so much mistakes on the part of the authors, as it is mother nature herself...she makes mistakes on a daily basis, and corrects herself too
this stuff changes all the time...some species remain constant, others don't, and they change all the time'
A pretty blanket statement, but pretty much true. Specification isnt as cut and dry as some mycologists - particularly those obsessed with the Psilocybes - might believe. But being biologists you'd think they'd know better. There will always be entities within a family with common ancestory that will have branching features - they are only a separate species when they are no longer cross compatible.
Pscyanescens wrote: 'Aeweia: Paul Stamets wrote a book called "Psilocybe mushrooms of the world" Very popular book, maybe your have heard of it. It says that when wet cyanescens have a thin gelatinous sometimes separable pellicile. This goes for cyanofibrillosa as well. He goes further to call it a common trait of psilocybes.'
I can list about 20/25 mistakes off the top of my head from that book - just because its published and popular doesnt mean that its right. Ive never tried to separate the pellicle from any Psilocybe - its never occurred to me to try it other than once on a cubie when i was bored.
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mjshroomer
Sage
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Zen Peddler]
#6415088 - 01/01/07 07:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not all species of Psilocybe have a separate pellicle. But one minor mistake in Paul's book was his misidentification of the mushroom Psilocybe samuiensis Guzman, Bandala and Allen.
In his book he listed it under the heading of Psilocybe samuiensis Allen Merlin and Gartz.
But that was a mnor. There are errors in his identification of Panaeolus papilionaceus.
Confusion regarding the mushroom's real id is still common amongst many mycologists.
I have two papers , one from China and one from Japan from the early 1900s which describe intoxications in Japan of this mushroom, yet line drawings of this species practically resemble both Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus subbalteatus. And none showing any fringed gear-like teeth which are macroscopically identifiable as associated with the Panaeolus sphinctrinus complex.
Another point I would like to bring up about Paul is that he spends 99% of his time on his farm and in his lab, and not in the field as he did in the 1970s and the early to mid 1980s, so he has not been out looking at a lot of other mushrooms, at least Psilocybes.
Also, I think his inclusion of many species into his book, "Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World" which had no psilocybin in them is misleading to the readers and causes a lot of confusion. Shrooms such as the Stropharias, P. cyana, P. caerrulea, etc.
His famous Galerina photo with a stuntzii or vice versa was a set up picture and his bluing baeocystis image was also inked in with a marking pen.
That very image of the Galerina/Stuntzii appeared in High Times back in the early days of the mag., and was mislabeled. One image shown was Pstuntzii and one Galerina autumnalis. High Times published it and had accidently reversed the images with the wrong names.
Me, Paul and about one dozen others all informed each other and High Times of the error.
Four months later they printed a retraction and by mistake, reprinted the exact same error.
Now about an error of major misinformation from my first two editions of my book, "Magic Mushrooms of the Pacific Northwest."
Between 1973 and 1976, Psilocybe stuntzii grew proliffically in about 80% of all new lawns and in woodchips from top soil in gardens covered later with alder chips called steer-co.
I took a bag, collected on the campus of the University of Washington campus to Dr. Daniel Stuntz, The PNW's most famous and well recognized mycologist.
He identified these mushrooms personally to me as Psilocybe cyanescens.
At the time, we knew the common dose was 20-40 mushrooms. I wrote of the dose, and so did Lincoff and Mitchell, Haard and Haard, Richard Hans Norland, Bob Harris, and many others.
Boh Harris in his first two editions fo growing wild mushrooms later named them Psilocybe pugetensis, he identified P. cyanescens as P. unidentified and P. baeocystis as P. cyanescens.
Rich Gee and Jules Stevens who wrote the cult and id book, How to Grow and identify Psilocybin Mushrooms, published three pictures of liberty caps and called them P. pellicuklosa, yet did have one photo of P. Pelliculosa labeled correctly.
In my book I labeled them as Psilocyeb stuntzii, based on Dr. Stuntz identification of them and listed the doasge as 20-40 mushrooms.
That could have been very fatal to someone in one form of toxicity or another. I was lucky.
Photos from F.C. Ghouled.s early 1973 mushroom field guide for P. cubensis in the southwest and southeast, included four species for id. P. cubensis, P. subbalteatus, P. caerulescens and Amanita muscaria. Two fo those images appeared inone page o in my book and were listed as he described them as Panaeolus subbalteatus. That was wrong.
Ghouled had several major mistakes in his book.
He listed Amanita as the famed psilocybin mushroom of Mexico.
He also displayed two images of P. cubensis in their yung penial stages as Panaeolus subbalteatus.
That error was further perpetuated in an article by a Dr. Jacobs on "Hallucinogenic Mushrooms in Mississippi" who then wrote that P. subbalteatus was the 2nd most popular hallucinogenic wild mushroom used in the United States. He also used that statement from an article by Dr. Andrew Weil which appeared in the Journal of altered States of Consciousness.
When we all wrote our books in the 1970s, Even Paul's first book, Psilocybe Mushrooms and their Allies, listed many Species of Panaeolus as probably hallucinogenic, based on writings of other mycologists and chemists whoa also erred or had misinformation or given to them by Ola'h, Chemists such as Tyler and Grogans who analysed Panaeolina foenisecii and P. sphinctriunus, claiming they found traces of indols inthose species.
All of the curerent new field guides for edible mushrooms usually still list Panaeolina foenisecii as a psilocybian mushroom, or label it as possibly hallucinogenic/poisonous, etc. and the same with the confusion in Panaeolus campanulatus or P. sphinctrinus.
Dick Schultes in Plants of the Gods listed it as a mushroom used by the Mazatec, still relying on his pioneering studies in Oaxaca in the mid 1930s with Blas Pablo Reko and accidently identified as such by Rolf Singer who later learned the mushrooms were mostly P. mexicana and a few specimens of the P. sphinctrinus were mixed in the collection. Schultes described it as a mushroom used ceremoniuously.
Years later in a pers. comm. to me he came to the conclusion that it was not.
Yet a few years ago, Christian Raastch reedited Schultes and Hofmann's book and still wrote it was a mushroom used ceremoniously in Mexico by indegenous peoples.
So we all have mistakes and errors all the time.
We try to correct them but others, with up in their nose air mycologists, still write on what someone else described years ago, further contiuing their perpetuating common small errors in identification of what species was what.
In a way, it is kinda like those who study the bible and claim manna was a mushroom [sic!]
But cyans do havce a slight membrane on them and many other Psilocybe species do. Right now there are approx., 130 species of psilocybian Psilocybes in the Genera and about 80 which have no psilocine/psilocybine whatsoever.
And then there are 10 more families which have form one to 13 species of psilocybian mushrooms in those.
Another mistake perpetuated for years by everyone, including Rumack and Salzman and Lincoff and mitchell's mushroom poisoning books: See below
Rumack, Barry and Emanuell Saltzman (Eds.). 1978. Mushroom Poisoning: Diagnosis and Treatment. 263pp. CRC Press. West Palm Beach.
One of two books dealing specifically with psilocybian mushroom poisoning and other toxic muhrooms. In this particular book, several papers regarding case histories and treatment for psilocybian intoxication are presented. The second book on mushroom poisoning is Lincoff and Mitchell's Toxic and Hallucinogenic Mushroom Poisoning..
Rumack, Barry and David G. Spoerke. 1994. Handbook of Mushroom poisoning: Diagnosis and Treatment. CRC Press. 464 Pages. Reviewed as posted here: "Mushroom Poisoning is a compact hardcover book that contains much useful information. The editors have done an admirable job of assembling some of the most mushroom-knowledgeable experts available and collating sound scientific information about these herbivorous scions.... Overall, this book is much more than a handbook. It really is the definitive clinical text on mushroom poisoning. Any healthcare professional who needs to know about mushrooms and mushroom poisoning or who has more than a cursory interest in the subject will want to have ready access to this text. Additionally, because mushrooming is a relatively common companion activity to hiking and other outdoor recreation, wilderness medicine practitioners should have a copy in their library."
Kenneth W. Kizer, MD, MPH, in Wilderness and Environmental Medicine, 4, 347-353 (1996). This is a revised edition of the above book by Rumack and Salzman.[this mew edition is $267.00 dollars],
and the out of print,
Lincoff, Gary and D. H. Mitchell, M.D. 1977. Group 6: Psilocybin-psilocin (hallucinogenic poisoning). Toxic and Hallucinogenic Mushroom Poisoning:9-26, 100-135. 267pp. Van Nostrand Reinhold. New York.
A physicians handbook of mushroom toxins presents a brief history on the traditional use of entheogenic mushrooms in Mesoamerica. Their rediscovery by western society and descriptions of several well known and sought after North American varieties are presented. Dosages are included but caution should be given regarding proper dosage (See Allen, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980; Haard & Haard, 1975; Ott, 1993) for related dosage information. For related books on Mushroom Poisoning see also: Rumack and Salzman, 1994; and Rumack and Spoerke, 1994.
descibe the story of the six-year-old boy who ate a meal of P. baeocystis with his family and died.
So all of the field guides and these two books lited this story and a paper was published regarding the incident in prestigeous medical journal:
McCawley, E. L., Brummett, R. E., and G. W. Dana. 1962. Convulsions from psilocybin mushroom poisoning. Proceedings of the Western Pharmacological Society vol. 5:27-33.
A report of a suspected mushroom poisoning which allegedly caused the death of a young child. The child became ill after consuming a cooked meal of mushrooms believed to be Psilocybe baeocystis. However, Later identification of the suspected species showed it was P. cyanescens. A photograph obtained by the senior author (Allen) from the authors of this paper was that of Psilocybe cyanescens.
Years ago I had written Rumack and Salzman about this with a copy of the picture of the P. cyanescens taken from specimens at the home of the deceased, and the letters form the doctors who wrote the article, yet in this new edition of the Rumack and Salzman book they kept the original story as it appeared years ago.
When Rumack's book appeared in print, every guide listed a warning that P. baeocystis was dangerous and had been the cause of a death in a six-year-old boy.
One of the authors of this article referenced above provided me with the photograph of the cyan. The wavy caps were unmistakable
The Psychedelic encyclopedia by Peter Stafford also showed this image as did the late Gary Menser of Florence, Oregon wrote in his book, Halllucinogeic and Posionous mushroom Field Guide.
That is just the tip of the iceberg in regards to many of these mushrooms.
mj
Happy New year to those down under blue Meanie and to those at the Shroomery.
And yes many us species can resemble species from other countries, but only because they have similar characteristics within the genera. that does not mean they are related because they are macroscopically similar, since DNA can show differences and some can those who study diferent species under the microscope.
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pscyanescens
The Raindancer
Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 1,397
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: mjshroomer]
#6415783 - 01/01/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mjshroomer:
"But cyans do havce a slight membrane on them and many other Psilocybe species do"
Thank you Mjshroomer. You seem pretty credible with almost 13,000 posts! I say thank you because I myself on several occasions have separated the pellicle of Cyanescens and Cyanofibrillosa. I was taught it was a not so uncommon psilocybe trait.
I am not saying that all books are 100% accurate. But when my own personal experiments results are the same as a popular authors experiments results, and the same results are obtained every time the same experiment is done, then i preceive thees results to be fact............. until the evolution of mushrooms changes everything.
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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."
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auweia
mountain biking
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: pscyanescens]
#6416172 - 01/01/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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well, I've seen a membrane before on cyanescens when their young and wet, but that was quite a long time ago, and nothing like the pellicle on semilenceata. On liberty cap-s they are fairly easy to seperate.
but on cyanescens, i wouldn't use the presence of a pellicle as an ID factor, because many are not going to have anything most people can seperate. I suspect that cyanescens may be actually lsoing whatver pellicle they had before in the past, and maybe some strains have them, while others don't.
I've never actually seen a photo of a cyanescens with a pellicle seperated. I've come close 20 years ago with a young wet one myself, but even that wasn't really a proper pellicle like semilenceata. I've seen a photo of baeocystis with the pellicle seperated, but not cyanescens, and espcially not the 'friscosas' we see down here
I've tried to..I've taken a pin, stuck it in there while their young and wet, and it just isn't happening like liberty caps
I bet people in the PNW see something more like a pellicle than we do down here.
somebody's gotta be able to get a photo of a pellicle on cyanescens someday, but it won't be me cause I've tried
I'm just saying there's plenty ways to ID cyanescens without using a pellicle, because if it lacks a pellicle and people throw it out and they're still cyans, boohoo for them
In fact, in my very own avatar, those definately did not have any pellicle, but I didn't throw them out
Edited by auweia (01/01/07 06:14 PM)
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Quankus
keep a dreamjournal
Registered: 11/18/04
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Loc: Benicia, CA and Monterey ...
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: inski]
#6416511 - 01/01/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
inski said:
Was just wondering, do these so called Psilocybe cyanofriscosa macroscopically resemble these active Psilocybe sp found in New Zealand?
I think they are macroscopically similar to Waylitjims find depicted in Workmans microscopy composite, Psilocybe sp 1.
inski
friscosas do not match up to those physically. They generally have very stumpy short in length stems. with meaty caps. grow in clusters too, like one right on top of another
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CyanoFriscosa
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auweia
mountain biking
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Quankus]
#6416542 - 01/01/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think he might have meant these below here
this is the one that waylitjim found last year. he's the only other person we know of that found these yet>>> below is part of my find from last year. Not friscosas, not azures...we don't know yet.
Peter Werner said they *might* be subaeruginascens, but I suspect that's only because it's the next closest thing, but even that's not quite right either. I think workman said the same thing too once....Neither does these the one below and the two above photos match really closely...but closer than fibrillosa/friscosa
Edited by auweia (01/01/07 08:37 PM)
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OregonBluesGil
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6417952 - 01/02/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I found some more of those Cyanfibs/Cyanfriscosas,Short little clustered Carmel caps,So short that when picked the Caps just popped off leaving behind the stem.Alot of them were like little butts,I'll try to get pic s uploaded tonight..
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I'm in a Magical Mushroom land! 
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6419981 - 01/02/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is just as likey that the mushroom is Ps.subaeruginosa
(Australia) as it is subaeruginoscens (Asia). Its probably neither.
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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We even have cyans in the PNW whose stems are only a half inch high and other s which can reach a height of 4-6 inches high. Here are some ground specimens of P. cyanescens with short half inch to one inch stems.
And blue meanie is correct in his comments concerning the id of your mushrooms. They are not an Australian species and vice-versa.
mjshroomer
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auweia
mountain biking
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: mjshroomer]
#6420110 - 01/02/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mjshroomer said:
We even have cyans in the PNW whose stems are only a half inch high and other s which can reach a height of 4-6 inches high. Here are some ground specimens of P. cyanescens with short half inch to one inch stems.
And blue meanie is correct in his comments concerning the id of your mushrooms. They are not an Australian species and vice-versa.
mjshroomer
Oh I agree on this...I just provided that as an example, of how....um...possibly...close they can look...a little
Not really tho...I know they're not the same....we don't know what these are here yet
MSSF has looked at them, Workman has published microscopy....nuttin...nada...nix...nein...neh
Lots of speculation, but nothing definate yet
Edited by auweia (01/02/07 09:57 PM)
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auweia
mountain biking
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: mjshroomer]
#6420113 - 01/02/07 09:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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hey by the way, heres one about the pellicle, or not
that's from today, and the fibrilloas/friscosa is still wet enough and young enough....see where I split the cap?...there's no pellicle there
you would be able to see a skin on top of the split if there was a pellicle..or, I would be able to lift it up off the cap, like most liberty caps
can't do it, cause it isn't there
Edited by auweia (01/02/07 09:43 PM)
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6420522 - 01/03/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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'MSSF has looked at them, Workman has published microscopy....nuttin...nada...nix...nein...neh
Lots of speculation, but nothing definate yet '
Until we have some definative and clear pics of the variable cystidia shape its hard to know. I still havent been lucky enough to get someone to send me a specimen yet...
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auweia
mountain biking
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6421269 - 01/03/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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here ya go http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/composites/SanFran_azurelike
that's the same ones that waylitjim found last year in a different spot
azure like, but not azures...strong as azures tho
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tahoe
Noob Slayer
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 6,274
Loc: N38.93829W119.98108
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
#6422332 - 01/03/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
auweia said:
here ya go http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/composites/SanFran_azurelike
that's the same ones that waylitjim found last year in a different spot
azure like, but not azures...strong as azures tho
I wonder if that is from the print i sent him from the patch I found
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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.
My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987
Teh=The
I need to proofread
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OregonBluesGil
Forager/Gatherer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: tahoe]
#6423569 - 01/04/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I finaly got the Pictures to upload,These are not like any cyancenses I've ever picked,Theses wer very short to the Ground,Grew in clusters of 2 and up to several.They seemed to be bigger caps and more roundeed,some with little butts,about 40 plus in the single patch.I think theses are Cyanfibrilosa/frisco,Let me know guys.
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I'm in a Magical Mushroom land!
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pscyanescens
The Raindancer
Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 1,397
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Auweia:
You should try harder. I have 2 witnesses in my house that have seen me peel back the pellicles of some fibs, 4 hours after picking! It wasn't written in a book because its not possible, i know 5 people who say it is. The book says "sometimes separable"
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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."
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