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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: baycafe]
    #6326562 - 12/02/06 06:12 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Looking at those photos I see nothing remarkable - its just a phenotype of cyanescens. The problems arise when people assume that macroscopic variations are stable within species when they arent...

'there's a couple of other things too..why does Stamets refuse to call these fibrillosa then?..Why is he calling this a possible new species in california?..wouldn't it be easier just to call them fibrillosa?'

So you are assuming that Stamets is THE authority on Psilocybes? If so, please tell me what formal qualifications he has to justify this title?

'also, why are there so few photos of fibrillosa from washington and why are there so many down here?..It's been demonstrated repeatedly under a microscope that these in california are closer to cyanescens than to fibrillosa, even tho they look closer to fibrillosa'

If its been demonstrated, then please explain to me exactly what shape the cheilo and pleurocystidia on this mushroom look like. Ive been attempting to have one of you guys send me a specimen for quite a while without success. Its pretty simple however - if its got lageniform or capitate cystidia then chances are its a variant of the cyanescens family - if it doesnt then chances are it isnt.

Really only spore compatibility tests or DNA could really solve this, but phenotypical variation within species can be amazing (compare pygmies to swedish people)

'as far as I know MJ has rarely been to california and probably has never seen these in person, but Stamets comes down here alot..'

So you suggesting that because MJ doesnt go there much his opinion is less valid than someone with less training who does?

'But I said from the very beginning I thought these were a mutation of cyanescens, they are commonly near and around cyan patches, since the day i first saw them 5 years ago, and i've been picking for 25 years now..If they can grow together as one, they would be the same species, so why are they shaped so different then?..In the mushroom world, things like this are possible. or rather, with some behaviors, we can't say it's impossible anymore, because the more we learn the stranger it gets'

What things are possible? Your posing a question and then making a blanket statement. specification comes down to to variables - isolation or advantage. Every mushroom has a range of different phenotypes it can employ to handle specific environmental parameters. Some serve and apparent purpose, others dont serve any discernable one - some remain some dont. Subaeruginosa can look like azurescens or it can look like a wavy-capped cyanescens macroscopically for no apparent reason is identical habitats - there is no reason for it, and teh wavy-capped characteristic is stable and can be replicated through spores, to agar, to fruiting in an outdoor bed. It is still however, cross compatible with other forms of subaeruginosa - it is still the same species. And the differences are far more significant than the ones you are suggesting demonstrate this mushroom to be a different species than Ps.cyanescens.

'As far as I'm concerned people can debate the name till kingdom come, but I have no trouble identifying them as good as cyans, I'm happy, my friends are happy.

Other people have trouble tho '

Actually you seem to be doing far more debating than others here. But blanket statements dont make good science.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6329236 - 12/03/06 01:06 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hang on... Im confused, didnt you just say in a previous post that you didnt care, than spent that long writing a response afterwards... :wink:
Ill try and put it in ways that you understand, since this you have decided is the cornerstone of science.
I dont think its necessarily a new species. It could be, but just because it looks like it doesnt automatically mean that it is. I made this point at the start, and the basic response was something along the lines of 'well Peter and Stamets think that it is.'
I mean your welcome to accept that but I was more curious...
All I was asking for was evidence of the fact that this is a new species. And having read Peter's post Im still not convinced.
No need to take it personal...

'Not at all, but MJ himself is asking people from the PNW to stop giving advice to Europeans. Of course, that's because it's another part of the world and that can get dangerous..For example, every year we have poisonings here with people from SE Asia who find a mushroom that looks EXACTLY like an edible in their home town..There's very good reasons why people too far away should not give advice to locals.
With that in mind, I should mention that San Francisco is over 1000 miles away from you guys up there in the PNW. We don't even have the same trees down here, mush less the same environment, so yes, I would suggest that somebody who's had at least some experience with the local variety FAR outweighs somebody who's never handled them in person, and only seen photos'

Actually I dont agree, and Im in Australia...

Oh and: formal qualifications/psilocybes/formal qualifications/psilocybes/formal qualifications/psilocybes


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Edited by Zen Peddler (12/03/06 01:07 AM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6329466 - 12/03/06 02:28 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You replied to me, but i assume you mean someone else? Otherwise I wish! Wrong time of year here to have done the wrong thing... :frown:


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6346274 - 12/07/06 10:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

'I've never seen that here. I can tell very easy that I've never seen that here. It's so obvious it whaps me upside the head with a frying pan. If you can't see the difference between this photo and what we've been seeing here and posting photos of, then I recoomend you don't come here and pick cause you'll be next in line for the Darwin awards. I've seen galerinas here that look closer to the above photos than the psilocybes we've been picking here.'

Ive missed your point completely there. Who said your mushroom was supposed to look like that? I certainly didnt...

Someone feel free to post some microphotos of the basidia and cystidia and all confusion will be to some degree clarified.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (12/07/06 10:56 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6346284 - 12/07/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

'Currently, the two most important mycologists involved in Psilocybes are Prof Nooderloos and Gaston Guzman and his daughter Laura, and several others in Xalapa, Mexico. In fact, all Psilocybes which are new generally go to Guzman who is currently revising his 1983, "The Genus Psilocybe."'

In whose opinion MJ? Yours? I dont agree in any way - just because they write a lot doesnt mean they know what they are doing...
Pluteus - if he wasnt on 'holiday' would have sorted the whole genus out in no time...

And talking about how a mushroom looks to you is meaningless - you cant identify a mushroom purely by its macroscopic characteristics.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6346295 - 12/07/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

'I can't think of any species with more extreme variation than fibrillosa. Almost seems like it's pushing the limits, and it just might be '

See, ive mentioned a species that varies far more than yours does - Ps.subaeruginosa - but your obviously so assured in your reasoning taht your too busy to read...
Seriously what limits are you talking about? Have you researched or defined the limits, or do you just talk about your opinion?
How many species have you actually examined? I mean ive seen strains of cubensis that are much more variable than that.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (12/07/06 11:01 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6346318 - 12/07/06 10:53 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

last reply in a row.
If Peter thinks this mushroom is subaeruginescens again Id like to see some evidence of this - for a start its an Asian species. Subaeruginosa is probably more likely, since it is such an aggressive species and can over-run Ps.cyanescens patches in the UK.
It is possible, but generally it has far smaller spores than the normaller or more common Ps.cyanescens variants like Ps.cyanescens (surprise!), Ps.subaeruginosa and Ps.azurescens.
So that is a long shot - pretty much like most of what Ive heard Peter say...


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Edited by Zen Peddler (12/07/06 11:02 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6347051 - 12/08/06 05:31 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

LOL
'Yes I agree, some if this IS a long shot, but it still doesn't negate the fact that we are finding some rather 'long shots' here in the Bay Area, just by itself'

Im confused what you mean by this? What other long shots are we talking about? Maybe ive smoked too much tonight, but assume your talking about other things not shroom related?
Anyway, I dont know why Peter would jump to a long shot when there are more obvious and probable answers (which youd assume are much more likely just with reason)
Yeah Id love to get a sample of these one day - picks of teh cystidia and basidia up in this thread would help lots.

When you say that you wouldnt advise any newbies to use this as some sort of basis for finding this mushroom Id have to again disagree. Firstly, people shouldnt be basing their idea of how to ID an Psilocybe from pictures.
I mean any mushroom you find that fits the basic key - purplebrown spore print, stem and cap staining blue, possible pellical.

WOuld a person check out any mushroom that looked suspicious, even if it didnt fit their exact image of the species they have been hunting? I thought that would be logical.


If nothing else, it certainly needs further study from all of you...Just do us the courtesy of not totally ignoring it until there IS a very good consensus, eh?

Im not sure whose consensus we are talking about?

EDIT, for MJ et al...you mean to tell me that for everything you can't identify worldwide, you're just going to shove those under the umbrella of cyanofibrillosa?...why?..because nobody knows about those yet? '

Only in fairy land - Guzman might but that doesnt mean its in any way valid. Using cystidia and minor and generally unstable microscopic characteristics has been a pretty good tool in the past for IDing mushrooms within taxon, but now that we have far better methods - such as DNA or simpler spore-match compatibility tests, the ways of Guzman et al arent as relevant because they are no where near as accurate. Works in the field, but it isnt an exact answer.



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Edited by Zen Peddler (12/08/06 05:38 AM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: WaylitJim]
    #6355040 - 12/10/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

There are few psilocybes that have forked cheilocystidia - Ps.aucklandii, Ps.cyanofib and Ps.tasmaniana maybe ps.caerulipes. So that would be quite indicative of it NOT being Ps.cyanescens which definately does not have branched cystidia.

Secondly, MJ i know with 100% certainty that there are Ps.subaeruginosa growing in the UK and that they have naturalised and outcompeted a local Ps.cyanescens patch.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: tahoe]
    #6355051 - 12/10/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

If Stamets suggests that all woodlovers are descendents of Ps.subaeruginosa he is wrong. He is basing that on an an error that Guzman made relating to that mushroom having pigmented cystidia - when it doesnt.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6355162 - 12/10/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I dont see how the conclusion that this mushroom could be Ps.subaeruginascens has been made.
Firstly, its never been recorded outside asia. Secondly, and probably more importantly, it has fuscoid ventricose with blunted apexes pleurocystidia, cheilocystidia fuscoid ventricose to sublageniform.
No record of forked cystidia there. Ps.cyanescens, Ps.azurescens and Ps.subaeruginosa all have lageniform, lecynithform to capitate cystidia.
Cyanofibrillosa doesnt have Pleurocystidia at all - which would be an obvious point in terms of identification and the cheilocystidia are supposed to be lancelate to fuscoid.

So in terms of iding this mushroom, if its got lots of pleurocystidia it probabyl doubtful that it is cyanofibrillosa. If its got forked cystidia then its doubtful that it is Ps.cyanescens, Ps.subaeruginosa or Ps.subaeruginoscens. In that case it would most likely be a new species.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: canid]
    #6398549 - 12/23/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ive had a chance to examine the pics by Workman of the cystidial forms of the two mushrooms that have been collected as friscosa (sp?).
I guess its important to mention that when im trying to ID a shroom I sit down and record all the cystidial structures I find - even the odd or singular forms. THat way you get a good idea of the more common to least common forms. This isnt really possible with the pictures from Workman because he has just posted one image of each of the cystidia.

The first one:
http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/composites/Friscosa

Looking at the spore size, pleurocystidia and cheilocystidia Id be comfortable in saying that its either Ps.cyanescens or Ps.suaberuginosa. Id reckon its pretty close to Ps.cyanescens - although the specimens Ive examined have a large amount of capitate cystidia - which we do not see in this picture.
Other than that, and the spores being slightly different in shape, Id be happy with IDing this mushroom as Ps.cyanescens - sublageniform pluerocystidia, sublageniform to lageniform cheilocystidia with extended body forms and sometimes flexous necks.
Perhaps Peter should examine some specimens of Ps.subaeruginosa for comparison as this mushroom is very similar to Ps.subaeruginosa.

The second specimen was:
http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/composites/SanFran_azurelike


This one is much more interesting.
The spore shape is quite different to any member of the Ps.cyanescens family, I did also mention the 2-spore basidia but workman told me that these werent as abundant as the photo might suggest. That being the case, Ive never heard of Ps.cyanescens having 2-spored basidia - only Ps.australiana and Ps.cyanofibrillosa.
The pleurocystidia is also pretty classic sublageniform to pyriform with a neck, and cheilocystidia are pretty fucking weird - sublechyniform to well I cant really describe that second form - maybe lancelate with a swollen body???
Looking at the macroscopic appearance isnt really helpful because it appears very different.
I dont think its Ps.cyanescens - Id be thinking that its either a strange regional variant of Ps.cyanofibrillosa with pleurocystidia and no forked cheilocystidia, a new species or a branching species (somewhere between Ps.cyanofibrillosa and something different.)
Im probably thinking that its a new species based on what I can see, but Id have to examine the specimens myself to be a better judge of this.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6399854 - 12/23/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Do you guys know if I just looked at the right specimens of fricosa? Workman just posted another one that is different???

The two Ive looked at are unlike Ps.cyanofibrillosa - unless they some how grew Pleurocystidia or Guzman and Stamets got the original description wrong.
The spore shape is also really quite unique.
New species unless spore compatibility tests prove otherwise Id reckon.

Workie will post some more pics soon I hope.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6400986 - 12/24/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Thats a decent patch - 3000+ id reckon.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6414803 - 01/01/07 12:07 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I actually think that many of the friscosa specimens look a lot like just plain old Ps.subaeruginosa.

MJ wrote - 'So do most of us who write them. As soon as we publish something, someone comes along and changes it. But then There is also a lot of misinformation in his books.'

I was unaware that you actually had published works on the identification of Psilocybe or other species.

Auweia wrote: 'mj, I don;t think it's so much mistakes on the part of the authors, as it is mother nature herself...she makes mistakes on a daily basis, and corrects herself too
this stuff changes all the time...some species remain constant, others don't, and they change all the time'

A pretty blanket statement, but pretty much true. Specification isnt as cut and dry as some mycologists - particularly those obsessed with the Psilocybes - might believe. But being biologists you'd think they'd know better. There will always be entities within a family with common ancestory that will have branching features - they are only a separate species when they are no longer cross compatible.

Pscyanescens wrote: 'Aeweia: Paul Stamets wrote a book called "Psilocybe mushrooms of the world" Very popular book, maybe your have heard of it. It says that when wet cyanescens have a thin gelatinous sometimes separable pellicile. This goes for cyanofibrillosa as well. He goes further to call it a common trait of psilocybes.'

I can list about 20/25 mistakes off the top of my head from that book - just because its published and popular doesnt mean that its right. Ive never tried to separate the pellicle from any Psilocybe - its never occurred to me to try it other than once on a cubie when i was bored.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6419981 - 01/02/07 08:58 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

It is just as likey that the mushroom is Ps.subaeruginosa
(Australia) as it is subaeruginoscens (Asia). Its probably neither.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6420522 - 01/03/07 12:40 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

'MSSF has looked at them, Workman has published microscopy....nuttin...nada...nix...nein...neh
Lots of speculation, but nothing definate yet '

Until we have some definative and clear pics of the variable cystidia shape its hard to know. I still havent been lucky enough to get someone to send me a specimen yet...


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6426998 - 01/05/07 02:50 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

...And thus...


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Edited by Zen Peddler (01/05/07 08:12 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6429237 - 01/05/07 08:14 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I based my comments on what I originally read in this thread - after reading you pm my post has been deleted.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6433437 - 01/07/07 02:23 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

The original description of cyanescens states that its sometimes found with a pellicle. Stamets mentions it in two books, Guzman doesnt, but many Psilocybes have it to a varying extent.
If most references suggested that cyanescens has a pellicle, I wouldnt be arrogant enough to assume that I knew better because Id collected the species in one specific area. Have you ever collected cyanescens in the United Kingdom?

'when you say cyans have a pellicle..or even sometimes a pellicle, all that tells me is the definition of pellicle is expanded further than I thought'

Why do you say this? because you now think you have found a pellicle? Maybe the san fran cyans just dont have pellicles?



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Edited by Zen Peddler (01/07/07 02:40 AM)


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