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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6321042 - 11/30/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Hi Auweia,

I cropped your foto from Jan 2006 to show you a comparison image.

Here is your image and then here is one of mine from Seattle. My mushrooms, which very much macroscopically are very alike yours, were identified for me under the microscope by Dr. Gaston Guzman as Psilocybe cyanescens.

However, I believe most of the alledged friscosa's are P. cyanofibrilosa.

So compare my images from Seattle with yours from San Fran.

john



my image and more of same patch







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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6336188 - 12/05/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

btw,

I have been to California and even lived there for some time, and I was also there in the 1960s as well as 1994, 1997, 2001, 2003 and 2004. ANd several times inbetween all of those years dating from 1968 through 2004.

I have picked both P. cyanescens while there and seen specimens growing in situ of P. cyanofibrilosa in San Francisco (Golden Gate park and elsewhere in Marin County.

I want to post another picture of Paul Stamets here which I have permission to use and is in my book, "MMOTPNW.".

First Paul's Picture and then some from Cardboard in northwestern Washington near Bellingham, DH, @cro and Psillygirl in Seattle area and others, including Michael Beaug (Olympia and Tumwater and from Jeremy Bigwood in Oregon, this mushroom as do all Psilocybe species have certain characteristics of the generra which can be featured in many Psilocybe species.

And many belong to different stirps.

Currently, the two most important mycologists involved in Psilocybes are Prof Nooderloos and Gaston Guzman and his daughter Laura, and several others in Xalapa, Mexico. In fact, all Psilocybes which are new generally go to Guzman who is currently revising his 1983, "The Genus Psilocybe."

So Here I am presenting a short pictorial of some of the many variations in the growth and development of Psilocybe cyanofibrilosa.

The image of Pauls first picture shown above is not an image that one might say is representative of the species. I repeat that image here next to the other image in his book. Those shrooms he shows attain only a heigth of 3 inches.

And here are two images by Paul Stamets of P. cyanofibrilosa from his book, "pmotw."

Auweia showed you this image posted above as not like others he sees in San Francisco. I post my copy here of that same image posted above by Auweia.


But Auweia did not show you the 2nd image from Paul Stamet's book which looks nothing like the posted image by Stamets as posted by Auweia above.

But this image is also in Paul's book,



Now this next image of P. cyanofibrilosa is by Paul Stamets and appears in David Arora's book, "Mushrooms Demystified."
Notice the larger size of them and the convexed shape of some of the caps. Only a few smaller ones in this image resemble some of Paul's images posted directly above this one, but others here look nothing like Paul's two images in his book. But they are P. cyanofibrilosa


It was accidently mis-identified in David's book as Psilocybe cyanescens by David Arora. Both Paul and David are aware of the error in the identifucation of this species under the image in his book where it was listed as Psilocybe cyanescens. OF course, those who know P. cyanescens known that this image is not P. cyanescens. I was the first to inform both Paul and David while attending an annual Breittenbuish Mushroom Conference years ago. Those annual symposiums on shrooms are still a yearly event at Breittenbush Hot Springs Retreat.

The mistake is probably from the person who edited David's book, or maybe David at the time had never seen an image of P. cyanescens when the book was printed. Neither of them have tried to change or correct the text to that error, yet both have known of it since publication years ago.

Arora was also one person along with Gary Menser who claimed tha the gyumnopilus shrooms were active onthe east coast and void of chemical content in specimens formthe west coast (That shows misidentification of Gym Species).

These two P. cyanofibrilosas are by Cardboard near Bellingham somewhere.


by Jeremy Bigwood


by @cro in Seattle


by Psillygirl:


By DH:


By HongoMeester:


by J. Webb in San Francisco


by Psillygirl


by @cro






This next image was taken by Jochen Gartz while he and I were collecting specimens of P. stuntzii in 1991 in Eugene, Oregon at a local shopping mall along the Willamette River. He mailed these back to Germany from Salem, Oregon and later identified them also as Psilocybe cyanofibrilosa. Notice some have semi-conical caps. And they blued extemely instense after about five minutes.



And here are some images taken by me when shrooming with @cro and Psillygirl and by just @cro and I. These were also identified by Guzman for me as P. cyanofibrilosa









As in P. cyanescens, the stems of P. cyanofibrilosa can be either 1/2 to 2 to 3 inches in height or as much as 4-6 inches or taller.

They can also grow singular and/or cespitose and in clumps and/or clusters.

They can also grow in grassy areas where mulch was originally on the ground and sod was replaced over the mulch or they can appear in grassy areas along mulch beds where the lawn mowers have clipped the edges of the mulched areas alongside the grassy areas.

And, being Psilocybes. they have many similar characteristics of the genera Psilocybe.

But then so do Deconica, Naematoloma, Agrocybe, and even the deadly three Galerina species also mimic macroscopically several species of Psilocybe, by color as well as by shape.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (12/05/06 12:09 PM)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6336717 - 12/05/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

About the use of the Stamets photos. I paid him cash for the rights to those two photographs for my book and use as I see fit. So they were not copies.

Garzt examined a pooled collection of those mushrooms from Eugene, including the conical capped ones. They all were identified as P. cyanofibrilosa.

the last image I posted also has no umbos, or protrudes or nipples as do the cyans.

Not sure which photo is yours in my pictorial. I used those according to the ones people gave me permission to use.

AS I no longer own the mj shroom world site, I am slow in sending data to the brothers who run the site.

I still have numerous papers I am working on and at the same tiem I am trying to create some new pages of Thailand.

I have not even began to create the portion of the shroom world site for other edible and non-edible and toxic shrooms. I have thousands of images of those to sift through and then identify, plus ones I already i have identified.

Let me known which image I posted came from you and I will add your name there for a correction.

mj


One last note.

Guzman, I, Stamets, Arora, Menser, Bob Harris, Steve Jules, Jon Ott, Andrew WEil, Dick Schultes, Rolf Singer, Rich Gee, Gary Lincoff, Michael Beug, Daniel Stuntz, Orson Miller, and many others have also misidentified species, sometimes based on the reliance of an expert mycologist or their published latin descriptions, so the San fran species could be new or just a variation of an already exiting species. However, those mushrooms are also sometimes seen here in the PNW.

I collected a beautiful large cluster of a species in 1986 which was lost in mailing and never seen since. IT to resembled your collections but had over 120 specimens in the cluster. IT looked like one giant shroom from afar which was composed of over 120 shrooms.

Also one collection of a new species I collected in Thailand was completley eaten by gheckos and then shit into powder from them. The shrooms were placed in a metal tray and placed on a cabinet in one of the offices and forgotten about until I returned the following year. When my colleague brought the tray off the top of the cabinet, about ten gheckos leapped from it stoned out of their minds and all that was there was shroom powder looking like dust


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: CureCat]
    #6339539 - 12/06/06 05:07 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

In 1983, A large collection of P. cyanofribrilosa and P. cyanescens were collected along I-5 Highwaty between Eureka=Arcada, Ca. I mean over a 100 pound collections was found growing alongside of I-5 on both sides of the highway in alder mulch and stems and twigs and broken branches.

But agioan if it is new it will be posted by Guzman or others eventually. With all of these years this mushrooms has been collected and many on deposit, why would someone not take care of it. It takes 2-6 years now for papers to be published in some journals and 6 months in others..

My new paper on Pegleriana form SE Asia is just being submitted. and is only a few pages.

However my large 100 paper of 2002 with Guzman and Gartz took three and a half years after submission to appear.

mj Besides being 900 miles from the PNW tp Frisco, remember there are cyans there and ther have been found some stuntzii's and P. fimetaria inthe same region and some reports of liberty caps at times or a similar macroscopice species, also common in the PNW/

mj


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: tahoe]
    #6343640 - 12/07/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Tahoe, this is who Dr. Gaston Guzman is!

Quote:


Dr. Gaston Guzman -- mycologist, taxonomist, explorer, author and anthropologist -- is the world's foremost authority on the genus Psilocybe, having discovered and authored more than half of the known neurotropic species. He also is a leading authority on the indigenous peoples of Mexico, and their divinatory and medicinal uses of the sacred mushrooms.

Dr. Guzman was born in Xalapa, Veracruz, in 1932. His interest in mycology began in 1955 while a graduate student at the National Polytechnic Institute, in Mexico City. Up to that point the Institute's collection of fungi had been poorly maintained and he resolved to begin cataloging an entire new collection of specimens. In the summer of that year, Dr. Guzman conducted his first field work in the forests near Mexico City, where he found myriad species about which little was known. This inspired him to declare mushrooms as the topic of his professional thesis and he vowed to someday write a book on Mexican mushrooms.

In 1957, Dr. Guzman was invited on an expedition -- led by noted mycologist Dr. Rolf Singer -- to study neurotropic mushrooms in the Huautla de Jimenez region. Dr. Guzman was already familiar with the region, having collected there in 1953 (while in the employ of Syntex Laboratories) medicinal plant specimens belonging to the Dioscorea genus. Dr. Guzman had read with enthusiasm R. Gordon Wasson's Life article published in 1957 and he was delighted to have the opportunity to return to the Huautla region to study the hongos mágico. On the last day of the expedition, Dr. Singer and Guzman met Wasson in a small village near Huautla; Wasson was in the region conducting research and it was from this chance meeting that he and Dr. Guzman formed a close friendship that would last nearly thirty years. This meeting also resulted in Dr. Guzman's later friendship with Wasson's colleagues Roger Heim and Richard Evans Schultes.

In 1958, through his Indian contacts, Dr. Guzman learned of the Aztec word teotlaquilnanacatl. This word is used by the Indians of the Sierra de Puebla region to describe the sacred mushrooms; translated it means "the mushrooms that paint" (referring to the mushrooms' visionary properties). This is noteworthy because the Spanish chronicler Bernardino de Sahagun in 1555 stated that the Aztec name for the sacred mushrooms was teonanacatl. However, it seems that the word teonanacatl is no longer used by the Indians [Guzman, letter to author 1999]. Also in 1958, Dr. Guzman published his first paper on a blue-staining Psilocybe species and the first paper on the ecology of neurotropic fungi. This work was followed by other papers in which he revised the known hallucinogenic species of Mexico and described new habitats and species. The professional thesis of Dr. Guzman, presented in 1959, fulfilled the requirements for a degree in biology. The subject of the thesis was a study of the known neurotropic fungi of Mexico, their taxonomy, cultural uses, ecology and distribution. The thesis was reviewed by a professional jury and Dr. Guzman was awarded an honorary distinction. Dr. Guzman dedicated his thesis to his teacher Rolf Singer, as well as to Wasson, Heim and Teofilo Herrera, who all aided him in conducting his research.

In 1979, Dr. Guzman, along with Stephen H. Pollock, described a new entheogenic mushroom found by them in the Naolinco region of the State of Veracruz. This species was named Psilocybe wassoniorum in honor of Wasson and his wife Valentina.

Dr. Guzman's masterpiece, a world monograph titled The Genus Psilocybe: A Systematic Revision of the Known Species Including the History, Distribution and Chemistry of the Hallucinogenic Species, which he began in 1957, was published in 1983 by J. Cramer of Vaduz, Germany. This definitive work was made possible through a grant Dr. Guzman received from The Guggenheim Memorial Foundation of New York, on the recommendation of Richard Evans Schultes.

In 1993, Dr. Guzman, together with mycologists Victor M. Bandala and John W. Allen, described a new neurotropic mushroom, Psilocybe samuiensis, from Koh Samui, Thailand. This is the first blue-staining mushroom reported from Thailand and is the first species of the Section Mexicana to be reported from outside the Americas. Also described by Dr. Guzman were several new bluing species from Australasia: Psilocybe australiana, Psilocybe eucalypta, Psilocybe tasmaniana and Psilocybe aucklandii (the first three in collaboration with the preeminent Scottish mycologist Dr. Roy Watling, the last with Chris King of New Zealand). From South America, Dr. Guzman described more than ten neurotropic species including Psilocybe brasiliensis, Psilocybe columbiana, Psilocybe meridiensis, Psilocybe antioquiensis and others. From the U.S.A., Dr. Guzman described Psilocybe stuntzii from Washington (in collaboration with Jonathan Ott); Psilocybe tampanensis from Florida (in collaboration with Stephen Pollock); and Psilocybe weilii from Georgia (in collaboration with Fidel Tapia and mycologist Paul Stamets). Currently, Dr. Guzman has several papers in press, describing new species from Mexico, U.S.A., and Spain, as well as a checklist of all the known Psilocybe species in Europe. Also in progress (published) is a book on the worldwide distribution of the neurotropic fungi, in collaboration with John W. Allen and Jochen Gartz.

In his "Supplement to the monograph of the genus Psilocybe," published in 1995 by J. Cramer, Berlin (and dedicated to Professor Meinhard Moser), Dr. Guzman revised all the species described after his world monograph, and also described several new species and updated the keys for identification of the sections and species.




Currently he is revising his book. THe original book was $100.00 new so this time around it will be quite more.

I expect a copy for my work with Guzman. We still have some species which may or may not make the new book.

Next month he will began work on Shroomey Dan's Ohiop mushrooms for which Iposted some sem images.

Here is the title cover from his 1st Edition of the genus Psilocybe.

He has also published other books, all in Spanish of Mexican toxic, edibles and poisonous shrooms of the forests and mountains of Mexico.



mj


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6343688 - 12/07/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Auweia said
Quote:


you know what's really weird about this, Stamets is saying that azures closely resemble cyanofibrillosa but that azures get alot bigger than fibs. But I bet these fibs down here get alot bigger than azurescens.




Paul spends 99999.99999% of his time in his lab and at his farm, He rarely gets out for urban shroom hunting. Of course he has his chantrelle and matsutake spots so he goes there, but he does not walk around neighborhoods or local parks looking for new species of Psilocybe. So he is more or less a lab rat enthusiast.

HE is also very busy and rarely has time to talk to outsiders from his farm or to peoeple he has known for years. However, when attending a local mycological Society meeting or a conference he will discuss most things with strangers. But never from his farm.

I have a letter form Paul in 1990 asking me if I had heard of Panaeolus azurescens. I had no idea what he was talking about. WE in Oregon and Washington always referred to them as Psilocybe astoriensis. That was the name I was going to give it with Gartz.

In that very year I took Gartz, brought him from Germany to America for the first time since the wall came down, he had never been outsid eof Leipzig, Germany until we went shrooming together for three weeks. I was paid quite a bit of funds from the German Scientific Foundation. I took him hunting in Washingtron, Portland, AStoria/Hammond, Florence, Eugene and finally to Salem and Lake Detroit, Oregon.

Prior to that, Steven Peele of the Florida Mycology Research Center called them Astoria Ossip. He had no idea what they were.

But then when I took Gartz to meet Paul and to borrow a slide projector for our lectures at Breittenbush, He and Paul wrote the paper behind my back and published the mushroom as Psilocybe azuresecens. Also azure is the name of one of Paul's sons. One of my three childrens name is Teona (short for Teonanacatl).

The definite umbo or protrude on the cap of azurescens resembles a sombrero of sorts so it can easily be distinguished from the wavy caps of P. cyanecens, although some azures can become wavy in age as do some cubes.

Thus is the way of some mycologists.

I caught gartz selling postcards of my photos in Europe without informing me he was making money off of my loaned photos. He credited the package with five images by me but there were 11 of my images inthe cards. If I had not gone to Amsterdam and saw them for sale in shops inthe city I would never have known he was doing that

I also caught him selling European versions my CD's which he was a partial co-author of with his name as first author and me as co-author on the European editions of the book.

So much for that.

But Paul rarely goes shrooming/.

btw. The azures and cyanofibrilosa were first brought to the publics attention by me and a friend at a Breittenbush annual shroom show in the early 1980s.

mj


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: CureCat]
    #6344519 - 12/07/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes Cure Cat,

The mj shroom world site has over 5,000 photos of 55 species of psilocybian mushroms. The largest collection ont he internet.

However, there are still people her ewith five to 100 post giving advice to newbies to eat something they do not know what the mushroom is or they say things like, That looks like a stuntzii?

Oh well.

I am now back to work and off this subject for a while.

I am still revising the Bibliography of entheogenic mushrooms. Since 2002 publication I have now added more than 700 new refferences to the book. Most with annotations. and more than 756 photographs, plus a possible 2000 new additional images in a seprate gallery inthe book.

Plus Cactu's paper on his Jalisco mushrooms,
Shroomy Dan's on his Ohio species, a paper on P. pegleriana in press with guzman, and the alrge 130 page paper on SOutheast Asian actives. plus oneon the samuiensis and still i need to do more SEM work this spring to finish them off.In October of next year I retire form shrooms and will go live on a tropical shroom island with my favorite Quai arena.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: WaylitJim]
    #6345442 - 12/07/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

There are two varieties of the japanese Psilocybe subaeruginascens.
One form japan and one is from indonesia. No Auweia, I was not suggesting that at all.

I would say that if someone had sent me a collection of those shrooms a few years back I could have had them done within four months of research with chemical analysis, SEM spore ideiificationa and even Cultivation.

However, Workman is the most reliable for fast cultivation since he is outside the continental USA and can conduct such cultivation. I do a lot of that in Thailand but i have access to a whole University of mycological wealth in lab equiptment, scopes and in cultivation and chemical analysis of species, and i have numerous scholarly colleagues to assist me in anything I send to them, faster than it has taken for someone to really check this species out.

again, I guess you will all have to wait on Guzman and that could still take several years for him to complete his updated revised edition to the monograph of the Genus Psilocybe.

Still I could have chemical analysis performed and provide SEM's of such specimens as well as taxonomy of te species if anyone is intersted pm me and I can get your specimens to a legitmate source for work on them

I should mention that we knew of both P. azutrescens as early as 1980 and 1981 and also of P. cyanofibrilosa, but then again it took many years for sooeoen to work on them. A lot of recent work has been generated because of people like me who continue to go everywhere and investigate what grows where.

If I were to have a grant of enough to live in San Ferancisco for three months inthe fall I could have done so.

But I make a living taking people (usually serious in college students and teachers to se Asia to conduct such research ont two levels of communication. Both mycological and cultural. Angkor Wat is a good example and ther eis still the mysterious shroom from Thailand found by Gary Lincoff in Thailand which paul Stamets shows aas an unidentified species on a page in his book.

I still have four or five more specimens of mushrooms not yet identified, two magic and three not but all are Psilocybes and one non-active Hypholoma.

mj


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6347108 - 12/08/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Blue Meanie,

Regarding Guzman's qualifications, her eis a bit moe of his biography

Quote:

Instrumental in creating and leading our Veracruz tours, Dr. Gastón Guzmán, former President of the Latin American Mycological Society, has been a mycology professor and researcher for more than 40 years. In 1971 he received a grant from the Guggenheim Foundation of New York to study the genus Psilocybe, which ultimately resulted in a comprehensive book on the subject. He founded the Department and Herbarium of Fungi in Xalapa, and currently holds the Emeritus Research chair at the Ecological Institute of Xalapa. He has published more than 350 papers and nine books, including the first book, in 1977, on Mexican mushrooms.




And that is only a small part of His academic credentials.

btw, I did state above that it could be a new species, it could also be two or three new species.

I really doubt P. subaeruginosa or aeruginascens would grow in Englland. AS for P. azurescens, so dfar over the past 15 years, everyone who made small gardens of them in their homes never got the spores to spread into areas other than were they were planted.

Even Gartz has grown outdoor scores of patches in East Germany, he has never seen them reappear in places other than were he transplanted them or placed them outdoors from lab cultures in woodchips and mulch/

I can also say the same for some friends of paul stamets and I who tried growing them in Ohio,, New York, Arizona and a few European countries.

As For Gaston. 350 scientific papers are good credentials.

mj

And 99% of all edible mushroom pickers get their food shrooms from looking at one photo from leading mycologists field guides. So some pictures are a thousand words/

Again, the images I posted were all positively identified as P. cyanofibrilosa and yes there is a hell of a varience in the genera.

And as far as P. cyanescens there are patches with stems only 1/2 inch to 1 iunch and then some grow with stems up to 4-6 inches. Yet they are the same species. you should download Guzman's original book and read it.

Or if you can afford the new one when it comes out.

http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/espa...b=31&idpag=3458

http://setascultivadas.com/publicaciones.html

HE also writes on many other species including Plurotus\

http://www.ecologia.edu.mx/posgrado/curs...ardo%20Mata.pdf

And he has published papers on Gymnopilus sp. And other mushrooms/

mj

z


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: WaylitJim]
    #6347969 - 12/08/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have seen those here also and I would have said they were a cyanofibrilosa. WE always have to rememebr that one species can have so much variation in it that it can macroscopically resemble another species at time.

But I have P. stuntzii images with the same color in
the caps. I will post a few here to show you because generally a they are a brownish to caramel color in the caps changing to a straw yellow when drying.

But see this stuntzii here below




And this one here was also identified as a P. cyanofibrilosa which is so wet that ther eis no striate margin. SOmetimes, people walking over woodchip mulch flatten the mycelia and when shrooms come up they are mutated in shape formtheir mycelial network becoming corrupted by a heavy weight cauing a mutation inthe shapes of the sp hrooms. most likely to try to protect theirselves form excess weight when stepped on before they fruit.

I have one stuntzii that looks like a clitorus because of a mutated specimen directly behind it. And agfain, this more or less resembles the ones @cro and I found and the same as the Jeremy Bigwood Speci9mens posted at Michael beug's website and not the two images in Paul Stamets book PMOFW.



mj


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: tahoe]
    #6348667 - 12/08/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That is a most awwesome photo Tahoe.

Cool, thanks for sharing. I hven't seen that before, but have seen cespitose cyans and Azures and cyabofibrilosa like that but bowhere the same shaped caps. only the colors and put white blue streaking stem.

mj

kudos


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: canid]
    #6352193 - 12/09/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

AS Concretefeet said:
Quote:


when people start telling me about 'shr0omz that grow under the cow pies' i generaly stop talking to them, though often continue listening to see how inept they might be. it's almost always a dead giveaway that they've never been cubensis hunting [or often any mushroom hunting], don't know what species they are even talking about, etc.




There are nop cubes in Santa cruz, unless someone put there cakes outdoors inthe ground.

People haave said this about Alaska and about kansas and other areas. They do not grow.

However, on another note,
here are three cow-pies of manure form Kualoa Ranch in hawaii with Copeland species gerowing under the cow-pies which I turned over.







mj


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6399133 - 12/23/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Auweia,

After looking at the Stamets photo in PMOTW,



These two photos hardly resemble one another. The first image in the moss are approx, two and a half to three inch high mushrooms, Incurved margin and striate margins.

And Paul's second image of this species from his book are flat on the caps of some and smaler than those in the first image.

then take a look at the photo of P. cyanofibrilosa in David Arora's Mushrooms Demystified.



The above photo is of P. cyanofibrilosa and only a few resemble the photos of the P. cyanofiberillosa in Paul's book, while the Arora specimens have a few which slightly resembles a smaller version of Paul's Pictures in PMOTW, the David Arora image has much larger meatier specimens. The Arora photo was accidently mislabeled as P. cyanescens, of which it is really P. cyanofibrillosa.

Both have been aware of that error since the book first appeared in print but has never been corrected.

This next image is from 2003-2004 by @cro and shows some of the bulkier meatier specimens of P. cyanofibrillosa.



And then we have one of Jeremy Bigwood's images taken in the 1980s from Oregon of P. cyabnofibrillosa, also of much meatier stock than the Stamets original PMOTW images.



And then back to the original look, here is an image from Cardboard from the Bellingham region of northwestern Washington.



And a whole patch of the taller stemmed version of P. cyanofibrillosa by Cardboard. Also around Bellingham.



mj


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6409516 - 12/29/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

And even Paul has mistakes in all of his books.So do most of us who write them. As soon as we publish something, someone comes along and changes it. But then There is also a lot of misinformation in his books.

mj


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6415088 - 01/01/07 07:59 AM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Not all species of Psilocybe have a separate pellicle. But one minor mistake in Paul's book was his misidentification of the mushroom Psilocybe samuiensis Guzman, Bandala and Allen.

In his book he listed it under the heading of Psilocybe samuiensis Allen Merlin and Gartz.

But that was a mnor. There are errors in his identification of Panaeolus papilionaceus.

Confusion regarding the mushroom's real id is still common amongst many mycologists.

I have two papers , one from China and one from Japan from the early 1900s which describe intoxications in Japan of this mushroom, yet line drawings of this species practically resemble both Copelandia cyanescens and Panaeolus subbalteatus. And none showing any fringed gear-like teeth which are macroscopically identifiable as associated with the Panaeolus sphinctrinus complex.


Another point I would like to bring up about Paul is that he spends 99% of his time on his farm and in his lab, and not in the field as he did in the 1970s and the early to mid 1980s, so he has not been out looking at a lot of other mushrooms, at least Psilocybes.

Also, I think his inclusion of many species into his book, "Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World" which had no psilocybin in them is misleading to the readers and causes a lot of confusion. Shrooms such as the Stropharias, P. cyana, P. caerrulea, etc.

His famous Galerina photo with a stuntzii or vice versa was a set up picture and his bluing baeocystis image was also inked in with a marking pen.

That very image of the Galerina/Stuntzii appeared in High Times back in the early days of the mag., and was mislabeled. One image shown was Pstuntzii and one Galerina autumnalis. High Times published it and had accidently reversed the images with the wrong names.

Me, Paul and about one dozen others all informed each other and High Times of the error.

Four months later they printed a retraction and by mistake, reprinted the exact same error.

Now about an error of major misinformation from my first two editions of my book, "Magic Mushrooms of the Pacific Northwest."

Between 1973 and 1976, Psilocybe stuntzii grew proliffically in about 80% of all new lawns and in woodchips from top soil in gardens covered later with alder chips called steer-co.

I took a bag, collected on the campus of the University of Washington campus to Dr. Daniel Stuntz, The PNW's most famous and well recognized mycologist.

He identified these mushrooms personally to me as Psilocybe cyanescens.

At the time, we knew the common dose was 20-40 mushrooms. I wrote of the dose, and so did Lincoff and Mitchell, Haard and Haard, Richard Hans Norland, Bob Harris, and many others.

Boh Harris in his first two editions fo growing wild mushrooms later named them Psilocybe pugetensis, he identified P. cyanescens as P. unidentified and P. baeocystis as P. cyanescens.

Rich Gee and Jules Stevens who wrote the cult and id book, How to Grow and identify Psilocybin Mushrooms, published three pictures of liberty caps and called them P. pellicuklosa, yet did have one photo of P. Pelliculosa labeled correctly.

In my book I labeled them as Psilocyeb stuntzii, based on Dr. Stuntz identification of them and listed the doasge as 20-40 mushrooms.

That could have been very fatal to someone in one form of toxicity or another. I was lucky.

Photos from F.C. Ghouled.s early 1973 mushroom field guide for P. cubensis in the southwest and southeast, included four species for id. P. cubensis, P. subbalteatus, P. caerulescens and Amanita muscaria. Two fo those images appeared inone page o in my book and were listed as he described them as Panaeolus subbalteatus. That was wrong.

Ghouled had several major mistakes in his book.

He listed Amanita as the famed psilocybin mushroom of Mexico.

He also displayed two images of P. cubensis in their yung penial stages as Panaeolus subbalteatus.

That error was further perpetuated in an article by a Dr. Jacobs on "Hallucinogenic Mushrooms in Mississippi" who then wrote that P. subbalteatus was the 2nd most popular hallucinogenic wild mushroom used in the United States. He also used that statement from an article by Dr. Andrew Weil which appeared in the Journal of altered States of Consciousness.

When we all wrote our books in the 1970s, Even Paul's first book, Psilocybe Mushrooms and their Allies, listed many Species of Panaeolus as probably hallucinogenic, based on writings of other mycologists and chemists whoa also erred or had misinformation or given to them by Ola'h, Chemists such as Tyler and Grogans who analysed Panaeolina foenisecii and P. sphinctriunus, claiming they found traces of indols inthose species.

All of the curerent new field guides for edible mushrooms usually still list Panaeolina foenisecii as a psilocybian mushroom, or label it as possibly hallucinogenic/poisonous, etc. and the same with the confusion in Panaeolus campanulatus or P. sphinctrinus.

Dick Schultes in Plants of the Gods listed it as a mushroom used by the Mazatec, still relying on his pioneering studies in Oaxaca in the mid 1930s with Blas Pablo Reko and accidently identified as such by Rolf Singer who later learned the mushrooms were mostly P. mexicana and a few specimens of the P. sphinctrinus were mixed in the collection. Schultes described it as a mushroom used ceremoniuously.

Years later in a pers. comm. to me he came to the conclusion that it was not.

Yet a few years ago, Christian Raastch reedited Schultes and Hofmann's book and still wrote it was a mushroom used ceremoniously in Mexico by indegenous peoples.

So we all have mistakes and errors all the time.

We try to correct them but others, with up in their nose air mycologists, still write on what someone else described years ago, further contiuing their perpetuating common small errors in identification of what species was what.

In a way, it is kinda like those who study the bible and claim manna was a mushroom [sic!]

But cyans do havce a slight membrane on them and many other Psilocybe species do. Right now there are approx., 130 species of psilocybian Psilocybes in the Genera and about 80 which have no psilocine/psilocybine whatsoever.

And then there are 10 more families which have form one to 13 species of psilocybian mushrooms in those.

Another mistake perpetuated for years by everyone, including Rumack and Salzman and Lincoff and mitchell's mushroom poisoning books: See below

Rumack, Barry and Emanuell Saltzman (Eds.). 1978. Mushroom Poisoning: Diagnosis and Treatment. 263pp. CRC Press. West Palm Beach.
One of two books dealing specifically with psilocybian mushroom poisoning and other toxic muhrooms. In this particular book, several papers regarding case histories and treatment for psilocybian intoxication are presented. The second book on mushroom poisoning is Lincoff and Mitchell's Toxic and Hallucinogenic Mushroom Poisoning..

Rumack, Barry and David G. Spoerke. 1994. Handbook of Mushroom poisoning: Diagnosis and Treatment. CRC Press. 464 Pages. Reviewed as posted here: "Mushroom Poisoning is a compact hardcover book that contains much useful information. The editors have done an admirable job of assembling some of the most mushroom-knowledgeable experts available and collating sound scientific information about these herbivorous scions.... Overall, this book is much more than a handbook. It really is the definitive clinical text on mushroom poisoning. Any healthcare professional who needs to know about mushrooms and mushroom poisoning or who has more than a cursory interest in the subject will want to have ready access to this text. Additionally, because mushrooming is a relatively common companion activity to hiking and other outdoor recreation, wilderness medicine practitioners should have a copy in their library."
Kenneth W. Kizer, MD, MPH, in Wilderness and Environmental Medicine, 4, 347-353 (1996). This is a revised edition of the above book by Rumack and Salzman.[this mew edition is $267.00 dollars],

and the out of print,

Lincoff, Gary and D. H. Mitchell, M.D. 1977. Group 6: Psilocybin-psilocin (hallucinogenic poisoning). Toxic and Hallucinogenic Mushroom Poisoning:9-26, 100-135. 267pp. Van Nostrand Reinhold. New York.
A physicians handbook of mushroom toxins presents a brief history on the traditional use of entheogenic mushrooms in Mesoamerica. Their rediscovery by western society and descriptions of several well known and sought after North American varieties are presented. Dosages are included but caution should be given regarding proper dosage (See Allen, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980; Haard & Haard, 1975; Ott, 1993) for related dosage information. For related books on Mushroom Poisoning see also: Rumack and Salzman, 1994; and Rumack and Spoerke, 1994.
descibe the story of the six-year-old boy who ate a meal of P. baeocystis with his family and died.

So all of the field guides and these two books lited this story and a paper was published regarding the incident in prestigeous medical journal:

McCawley, E. L., Brummett, R. E., and G. W. Dana. 1962. Convulsions from psilocybin mushroom poisoning. Proceedings of the Western Pharmacological Society vol. 5:27-33.
A report of a suspected mushroom poisoning which allegedly caused the death of a young child. The child became ill after consuming a cooked meal of mushrooms believed to be Psilocybe baeocystis. However, Later identification of the suspected species showed it was P. cyanescens. A photograph obtained by the senior author (Allen) from the authors of this paper was that of Psilocybe cyanescens.

Years ago I had written Rumack and Salzman about this with a copy of the picture of the P. cyanescens taken from specimens at the home of the deceased, and the letters form the doctors who wrote the article, yet in this new edition of the Rumack and Salzman book they kept the original story as it appeared years ago.

When Rumack's book appeared in print, every guide listed a warning that P. baeocystis was dangerous and had been the cause of a death in a six-year-old boy.


One of the authors of this article referenced above provided me with the photograph of the cyan. The wavy caps were unmistakable

The Psychedelic encyclopedia by Peter Stafford also showed this image as did the late Gary Menser of Florence, Oregon wrote in his book, Halllucinogeic and Posionous mushroom Field Guide.


That is just the tip of the iceberg in regards to many of these mushrooms.

mj

Happy New year to those down under blue Meanie and to those at the Shroomery.

And yes many us species can resemble species from other countries, but only because they have similar characteristics within the genera. that does not mean they are related because they are macroscopically similar, since DNA can show differences and some can those who study diferent species under the microscope.


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: OregonBluesGil]
    #6420052 - 01/02/07 09:18 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

We even have cyans in the PNW whose stems are only a half inch high and other s which can reach a height of 4-6 inches high. Here are some ground specimens of P. cyanescens with short half inch to one inch stems.



And blue meanie is correct in his comments concerning the id of your mushrooms. They are not an Australian species and vice-versa.

mjshroomer


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6427407 - 01/05/07 09:29 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Blue meanie said:

Quote:
I'm sorry but what MJ proposes is ludicrous. Obviously he has just decided that its now a new species and wants to be involved in it.




And also this comment
Quote:



In three years. Why would it take him three years to publish something? LOL. Maybe he just wants some of your glory... But did you find it first?
It isnt proper form to list the name of the person that makes the collections - its the person who publishes it first that should get the credit, and if they go and publish something before doing the proper checks they might end up with egg on their faces (Guzman subaeruginosa complex, etc).
Those mushrooms look like subaeruginosa - Ive changed my mind - i think some of them may be subs... Its certainly possible given the fact that subaeruginosa has been know to outcompete other psilocybes and is also known to exploit and co-habit the same habitats as Ps.cyanescens.
How about someone ask Peter if he wants some specimens of subaeruginosa for comparison.??




Another quote from Blue Meanie:
Quote:

Why would it take him three years to publish something?




It now takes from 1-3 years for a journal to publish an article. More people submit. The article is sent to the journals editor, then resent to three reviewers around the world who are on the boards of the various journals. They review, they send back to the journal with suggestions to shorten or remove items from the paper.

The 100-paged Distribution of the Species by Guzmán, me and Gartz, took three years to publish.

The original article I wrote on Australian and New Zealand
which appeared in the Journal of Psychedelic Drugs in 1990 took a year and a half to write and correspondence with several dozen other people from down under to correct and verify my findings, a visit to the continent and then three people editing and reviewing and then the submission to the journal and then waiting on the reviews, almost 27 pages were edited out of the original article and then another year and a half before publication.

My recent paper P. antioquensis paper took almost two years to be published after submission to the International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms and it is only five pages.

Then you stated that:
Quote:

It isnt proper form to list the name of the person that makes the collections




Yes it is and that is in the Chicago Manual of Style. The book used for proper form of writing for scientific journals and other public notices.

Every deposited collection in herbariums has the name and date of deposit and the name of the person who collected it and what herbariumn it is stored in, as well as a deposit number to identify the collection and is in written as such and published in 99% of most papers on the taxonomy of species.

So Blue Meanie, for an simple example here is one such paper on P. pelliculosa specimens on deposit in herbariums in mexico, even I am listed by name for a collection from 1983 the Genus Psilocybe from a Seattle collection I made in 1977.



After you enlarge the image, right click the mouse onthebottom right corner of the paper tio read.

This is a good example of some mushroom collections. I am sure you will recognize some of the names of those who deposited this species found in clear cuts in the PNW from Humbolt county north to B.C, Canada and in parts of Europe. However, most clear cuttings are now illegal.

So your comments about peoples names in journals for herbarium deposits is incorrect.

What was said to Oregonbluegills is from a private pm message and should not have been posted here at all because it was a private conversation which we talked about in a pm./ It is a violation of rules to talk about what is said in a pm message.

I said it could be a new species and offered to do SEM and Chemical analysis which i can do in Bangkok legally. I do not want to get into anything about it now because of his and your comments.

AS for the name , The paper I suggested to him was for the chemistry and for the SEM work which I also can do in bangkok. Of course every herbarium collection used in an article gets a number and the name of whoever sent in the collectiona and where the location was and the habitat.

I can write those papers once a name is provided.

Guzmán already has several collections from several Californians who sent them to him on my suggestion,but Oregonbluegfils shrooms looked to me more like P. cyanofibrilosa speciemens similar to the images I already posted here of P. cyanofibrilosa rather than the normal shrooms people are calling P. cyuanofriscosa,A name which probably will not be used whent eh mushrooms identity is published by Guzmán in his revision of the genus Psilocybe.

Since I already have SEMs of P. cyanofibrilosa, I can do a comparative analysis of if and other collections and show whether they are the same species or not.

Blue meanie, This is not your affair.

Pollock had only one known specimen, P. tampanensis when he found it and he and Guzmán wrote the taxonomy from the one specimen and named it. And all the P. tampanensis of todays sclerotia came from a few spores scraped from the cap of that loan specimen found by Pollock in 1976. And from those spores, Pollock was able to grow massive shrooms of the specie sand produced the "cosmic comote" (Philosophers Stones) for the world (sclerotia of P. tampanensis).

You need to read your email. I am a little pissed at your comments and you should read the pm I sent to you about this matter and maybe stayed glued to your Australian shroom work because that is what you have experience in. Not that of the PNW where you have never been.

There are currently on deposit in several herbariums in Mexico over two dozen species of Psilocybe in the genera where there are only from one or two to five specimens deposited in certain herbariums of an individual suspected new species and used in formulating the taxonomy and naming of a species.

While Pollock's P. tampanensis was named from one fresh mushroom specimen only and found in Tampa, Florida in 1978, it was never seen again recorded or collected by anyone until a small collection was discovered in Mississippi in 1996. Many named species do not have any chance of 12 possible collections to study them and others have hundreds of collections deposited in herbariums.

mj

This is why I deleted over 12,000 photographs from this site because of people like you making rude unwarranted comments about thier assuming they known U.S. shrooms and about those who have done the major research in their 30-50 years in their lifetimes such as Guzmán, or Watling and others you obviously do not like or the results of their lifes works.

Oh btw, yes, we now have DNA confirmation of Psilocybe eucalypta as an individual species separate from P. subaeruginosa and P. tasmaiana.

And I also have in bangkok now several collections of the P. suaeruginosa mushrooms, or what people who sent them to us identified them as.

And now I think maybe I need to stay away from here for another six months or so.

have a shroomy day
mj


Edited by mjshroomer (01/05/07 12:35 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: OregonBluesGil]
    #6427804 - 01/05/07 12:15 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

This is the SEM I use to make my images and here is an SEM photograph I made of Cactu's Psilocybe laurae. WE did this in less then three months and with chemical analysis included in our research, after Guzmán publishes his revision of the Genus Psilocybe, Cactu and I and Gartz will publish on the chemistry and distribution of the species and then also Shroomy Dan, I, Gartz and Smy Thai Colleague will publish on the chemistry, cultivation and SEM of the mushrooms from Ohio. Dan's work took a little longer due to waiting for appointments to et to the SEMs. It takes a month to 2 months to get in to use them in Thailand.

WE are also working on two species, P. cubensis form Thailand and p. samuiensis. WE now have a new indol from both species. Those papers will appear in a forensic or chemical journal.



And here is an SEM of the mushroom from Shroomy Dan in Ohio which we have examined, conducted chemical analysis and await on Guzmán's taxonomic work,.


mj


Edited by mjshroomer (01/05/07 12:27 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6432543 - 01/06/07 08:18 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Not all Psilocybes have pellicles. IT is but one of the many physical chracteristics of the genera Psilocybe used in identification and separation from other Generaa, not specifically within the given genera.

Just as there are about 80 other Psilocybes which do not contain psiloine and/or psilocybine.

mj


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Re: Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa [Re: auweia]
    #6434645 - 01/07/07 01:14 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

A point on potency levels in species.

Most levels of potency in analysis are determined by a pooled collection of them being ground into one gram piles of powdered shrooms , Then a dosage level is made based on a gram weight per pooled collection.

However, each individual mushroom contains a different amount of the various active ingredients set apart from a single specimen of the same species being analyzed and it will have a different amount of the various chemicals in that one then in the first one analyzed. so each individual dose with one or two shrooms of potency per mushroom can have a different amount of chemicals in it to make a difference in the high from one shroom to another.

Mj

No two mushrooms have the same ampouont of chemicals within them from one another.

And as noted, P cyanofibrilosa in Washing is no digfferent than P. cyanofibrilosa in Oregon or in California. Theya r the same shroom.

Even right now some amateur Shroomery mycologists are trying to say to say the P. cyanescens in England is different than the ones in Washington and/or the PNW. Some of that talk is also being generated by one of my colleagues, Jochen Gartz, of Leipzig, Germany.

mjshroomer
I think he is wrong and have told him so


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