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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: A great loss for us all [Re: Vvellum]
    #6304781 - 11/21/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vvellum said:
What was his opinion of the coercive coup of the democratically-elected government?



The same as it was of every other government that limited freedoms, he thought it was a bad idea.

Quote:

Vvellum said:
Sounds like he was fine with that. Sounds like Friedman is fine with and would turn a blind eye to authoritarian regimes that use massive force and violence against its citizens if they privatize the economy.



Really?

This is all news to me. Maybe you can provide us with some quotes from Friedman's writings where he says he's okay with this.

Quote:

Vvellum said:
I simply think if he was consistent and truly interested in human freedom, he would have stood up for the thousands there were slaughtered and tortured. If the Pinochet regime were to listen to anyone, it would have probably been Friedman. He could have told them to halt their criminal behavior and that it was working against the supposed-gains of the new economy.



And how do you know this didn't happen? Can you provide some quotes or links where Friedman specifically supported Pinochet's regime?

I can provide dozens of links where he stated, time and time again, that regimes like Pinochet's needed to be changed.

Do you somehow have access to private discussions between Friedman and Pinochet to which the rest of us are not privy?

Quote:

Vvellum said:
The fact that he did not even try to persuade the Pinochet regime to stop kidnapping, murdering, and raping scores of people says much about his character.



Again, can you prove that he never tried?

Quote:

Vvellum said:
I am not saying he should have made some rash outburst of defiance, but rather he should have sat down and reasoned with the regime.


Again, can you prove that never happened?

You also seem to be confused about Friedman's belief in his own theories. He actually did believe in them. He wasn't trying to "run an experiment" he was trying to save people's lives.

If he didn't believe in his own theories, he might have even argued that Pinochet fail to change anything as a control against the advice he had already given to Nixon and was giving to Reagan.

But he believed in his own theories and wanted to change the world for the better, hence his advice to Pinochet.

If you can prove to us all that he never once suggested to Pinochet, during their limited discussions, that all the government spending on military and police crackdowns was a bad idea, I'd love to hear it.

On the other hand, if you can't prove what happened during their private discussions and you are extrapolating a position on Friedman's part that is opposite to ALL of his writings and his public addresses, I'd love to know why.

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: A great loss for us all [Re: Economist]
    #6304927 - 11/21/06 02:41 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The same as it was of every other government that limited freedoms, he thought it was a bad idea.


So why did he go and advise Pinochet and supporting him by saying he was on the "right track"? Why wasn't he using every single public statement he could to denounce Pinochet and pressure him to stop torturing people?

This is all news to me. Maybe you can provide us with some quotes from Friedman's writings where he says he's okay with this.


So is there anything from him saying Pinochet was on the "wrong track" at the time?

Can you provide some quotes or links where Friedman specifically supported Pinochet's regime?


Surely saying Pinochet is on the "right track" is support?

I can provide dozens of links where he stated, time and time again, that regimes like Pinochet's needed to be changed.


Talk is cheap. When he had a brutal dictatorship in front of him he went over, advised it and said it was on the right track.

Always judge someone on what they DO rather than what they say.

If you can prove to us all that he never once suggested to Pinochet, during their limited discussions,

How "limited" were they exactly? Sure he might have only been in Chile for a week himself but that doesn't mean he wasn't talking over what do in Chile with the chicago boys for years. Maybe he was cynical and crafty enough to know that keeping in the background was a better idea than visiting Chile repeatedly.

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: A great loss for us all [Re: Alex213]
    #6307063 - 11/28/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So your entire argument boils down to two points:
1) Friedman once said Pinochet was "on the right track" in a conversation that didn't relate to torture/arrests/beatings in the slightest
2) Speculation

For some reason you don't seem to think that Friedman really believed in what he was saying, believed that his policies would prevent starvation and save lives (which they did in Chile, btw). You keep characterizing him as some sort of a mad scientist who was desperate to prove his theories through unfounded conjecture about Friedman's motives.

What about the simple motive to do good? What about the simple belief that hyperinflation would end, and people could eat again, if Pinochet listened to him? What about the belief that his theories would save Chileans in the long-run?

Personally, I'm glad that Friedman didn't throw all of that away in order to make an idological stand that would have ultimately helped no one.

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: A great loss for us all [Re: Economist]
    #6307108 - 11/28/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Did his theories save Chile in the long-run? I thought they were utter catastrophe for Chile?

My argument boils down to you don't support the most brutal dictators on earth. Regardless of how good you think it might make your theories look. You have a little concern for the pregnant women your "client" is setting alsation dogs on.

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 2 days
Re: A great loss for us all [Re: Economist]
    #6319395 - 11/29/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

He will be missed.

"I am favor of cutting taxes under any circumstances and for any excuse, for any reason, whenever it's possible."


"Nobody spends somebody else's money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else's resources as carefully as he uses his own. So if you want efficiency and effectiveness, if you want knowledge to be properly utilized, you have to do it through the means of private property."

"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom."

"The power to do good is also the power to do harm."

"There's no such thing as a free lunch."


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: A great loss for us all [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6319645 - 11/29/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

He will indeed be missed.

He was quite the character. But first and foremost he was a legendary economist.

I actually had the privilege of knowing the man- his accomplishments as an economist are well known but do not let the scholarly appearance fool you- Milton could be wildly entertaining in private even though he could be quite mean when drunk.

Let me tell you about the time Milton took me out to go get a drink with him.. We go off looking for a bar and we can't find one. Finally Milton takes me to a vacant lot and says, 'Here we are.' We sat there for a year and a half — until sure enough, someone constructs a bar around us. Well, the day they opened we ordered a shot, drank it, and then burned the place to the ground. Milton yelled over the roar of the flames, 'Always leave things the way you found 'em!'

His poop is still considered currency in Argentina.

He hated Mexicans! And he was half-Mexican! ...And he hated irony!

I once saw him scissor-kick Angela Lansbury.

We once had a bachelor party for Milton. He ate the entire cake before we could tell him there was a stripper in it.

I digress.

I am sorry. I just can't separate the public Milton from the private Milton. That is who I am going to miss the most.  :wink:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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