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 unbeliever Yo Daddy!  Registered: 05/22/04 Posts: 5,158 Loc: Gallifrey Last seen: 15 years, 1 month |
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Whatever. You're more interested in putting words in people's mouths and making huge leaps in logic, straight off a cliff. Show me where I've defended anything hezzbollah or anyone else that has terrorized and killed people. No where. However, in the comfortable world of online posting it gets tedious to sit back and snipe at the easy targets. I find it more interesting and revealing to look at the unpopular views and hash them out to see if they have any value.
But obviously I just want Israel to be slagged into sand & glass. 
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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 JonnyOnTheSpot Sober Surfer   Registered: 01/27/02 Posts: 11,528 Loc: North Carolina |
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Quote: are you kidding me? israel has killed hundreds more arabs than arabs have killed israelis. the deaths may very well be 'accidental' but that doesn't change the simple numbers of the body counts here. what does it matter whether or not some asshole classifies your dead families death as accidental or intentional? your family is still dead, and no one has to take any responsibility because it was an "accident". i guess you should just get over it! maybe change religions and move to australia too! and who are you trying to kid here when you say that israel goes to great lengths to avoid killing innocent civilians? do you know anything about the conflict at all? between launching rockets into cities to kill one man and shelling palestinian towns it should be pretty obvious to anyone that they don't really care all that much abput preserving civilian lives. all they care about, like any army, is completing their objectives and eliminating the threats. it' simple, yet it's just a short term solution because it just leads to the cycle of the israeli state's killing of innocents which stirs the hornets nest up and creates more angry arabs who may or may not decide to join amuslim terrorist orginization and kill more civilians which will start the cycle all over again. so NO, the israelis are not saints. they're fucking idiots who keep trying to pour gasoline on the fire to put it out.
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speeddealer Stranger  Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Actually there is a difference, 'body counts' do not accurately describe the horror because one side ALWAYS lies, one side doesn't...Your assumptions are based on flawed logic and on moral equivalence. Bottom line, you target women and children and you've damned you whole worthless cause and warlike religion.
Islam is really not a religion of peace, here is an estimated number of the people Allah has killed since this thread started. (the number right after the city is the number of people killed in the name of Allah.) Source: http://www.religionofpeace.com/ 11/28/06 Afghanistan Herat 1 1 A suicide bomber kills a policeman who is trying to stop him from hurting others. 11/28/06 Thailand Yala 2 0 A Buddhist husband and wife are murdered by Islamic gunmen as they return home. 11/28/06 Iraq Kirkuk 1 12 A religious fanatic straps explosives to his body and kills at least one civilian. 11/28/06 Iraq Baghdad 4 40 Islamic terrorists bomb a hospital, killing four Iraqis. 11/28/06 Iraq Baghdad 36 23 Thirty-six victims of sectarian violence are found as a Jihad mortar attack injures twenty-three others. 11/27/06 Iraq Muqdidiya 5 25 Muslim terrorists shoot a mobile telephone shop owner dead, then plant bombs to kill on-lookers. 11/27/06 Iraq Baghdad 44 0 Forty-four victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found in an around the city. 11/27/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 0 Two Canadian soldiers are killed on the road by a Fedayeen suicide bomber. 11/27/06 Chechnya Gudermes 1 2 A Russian is killed by Jihad gunmen while traveling in a car. 11/27/06 Pakistan Makeen 1 0 A moderate cleric is assassinated by Taliban supporters, who pin a note to the body. 11/27/06 Iraq Mosul 2 0 Sunnis shoot an off-duty policeman and his mother to death as they are heading to the man's wedding. 11/26/06 Iraq Haswa 5 23 Jihadis car-bomb a crowded market, killing at least five innocents. 11/26/06 Iraq Haqlaniya 11 0 In a vicious attack, radical Muslims pull ten men and one boy out of a van and shoot them to death. 11/26/06 Thailand Yala 2 0 Islamic militants approach two police officers at a food market and shoot them at point-blank range. 11/26/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 A 46-year-old Buddhist man is shot off the back of a motorcycle while riding with his wife. 11/26/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 24-year-old villager is shot to death by Islamic terrorists. 11/26/06 Thailand Pattani 1 1 A Buddhist rubber-tapper is murdered by radical Muslims. 11/26/06 Afghanistan Paktika 15 25 A Fedayeen suicide bomber walks into a restaurant and slaughters fifteen innocents. 11/26/06 Iraq Baqubah 25 0 Terrorists kidnap and execute twenty-five people, including seven teenagers. 11/26/06 Iraq Iskandiriya 8 28 Eight patrons at a market are blown apart by a Jihad car-bombing. 11/26/06 Iraq Basra 4 0 Four people, including a woman, are dragged from their car and brutally shot to death by Muslim gunmen. 11/25/06 Iraq Diyala 21 0 Sunni extremists invade two homes and murder twenty-one men in front of their families. 11/25/06 Iraq Khaldiya 4 9 Four people, including two Iraqi children, are killed by a suicide bomber. 11/25/06 Thailand Yala 1 2 Muslims fire into a Buddhist-owned store, killing the owner and injuring two others. 11/25/06 Thailand Yala 3 0 Three Buddhist pig hunters are shot and hacked to death by Muslim radicals. 11/25/06 Iraq Baghdad 25 0 Twenty-five victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found executed around the city. 11/24/06 Thailand Narithiwat 1 0 Islamists break into a man's home and kill him. 11/24/06 Iraq Tal Afar 23 43 A double suicide attack near a car dealership leaves nearly two dozen people dead and many more in agony. 11/24/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A school administrator is shot and then burned to death by Muslim terrorists. 11/24/06 Iraq Baghdad 25 14 Six Sunnis are doused with gasoline and burned alive by Shia militia. Nineteen others are killed in various other attacks. 11/24/06 Iraq Baghdad 30 0 Thirty bodies are found dumped over a 24-hour period, victims of sectarian hatred. 11/24/06 Pakistan Sharif Chachar 1 0 A 15-year-old girl is hacked to death with an axe in an honour killing by her father, who suspected her of illicit relations. 11/24/06 Afghanistan Khost 2 1 Taliban extremists attack a convoy of trucks, killing two Pakistani drivers. 11/24/06 Algeria Biskra 5 0 Two civilians are among three people killed in an ambush by the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat. 11/24/06 India Rampur 8 2 Terrorists kill eight people in a shootout with security forces. 11/23/06 Iraq Baghdad 9 3 Nine people are killed in a retaliatory Shia mortar attack for a massive bombing. 11/23/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A man is murdered near his home by Islamic gunmen. 11/23/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 40-year-old Buddhist teacher is shot to death by Muslim militants. 11/23/06 Iraq Baghdad 202 217 Sunni terrorists murder over two-hundred innocents in five massive bombings spaced minutes apart. 11/23/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamists gun down a rubber-tapper on his way to work. 11/23/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamists murder a young man as he is sitting in his car. 11/22/06 Iraq Mosul 14 0 Fourteen people, including three women, are murdered by Islamic terrorists. 11/22/06 Iraq Iskandariya 7 1 Jihadis kill seven people with a bomb. 11/22/06 Iraq Baghdad 52 0 Police report finding fifty-two victims of sectarian hatred with the Religion of Peace around the capital. 11/22/06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 A husband and wife are pulled from their pickup truck and brutally killed by radical Muslims. The woman's body is burned. 11/22/06 Israel Sderot 1 0 An Israeli man is killed by Palestinians firing Qassam rockets into his town. 11/22/06 Pakistan Tando Masti 2 0 An imam shoots his daughter to death, and a second familiy member murders another girl on suspicion of sexual activity with two males. 11/21/06 India Mamoosa 1 0 A Christian convert is gunned down by members of his former religion. 11/21/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 0 A female legislator's husband is mowed down by the Taliban at a bakery. 11/21/06 Iraq Baqubah 19 5 Five separate Jihad attacks against civilians leaves about twenty dead. 11/21/06 Iraq Latifiyah 6 0 Sunnis kidnap, torture and kill six Shiites. 11/21/06 Iraq Suwayrah 7 0 Muslim terrorists kill six people and dump their bodies in a river. 11/21/06 India Awantipora 1 0 The Mujahideen abduct and hang a post-graduate student. 11/21/06 Iraq Baghdad 7 0 Seven students riding home in a minbus are slaughtered by Sunni extremists. 11/21/06 Lebanon Beirut 1 0 A Christian leader is gunned down by Muslim terrorists supported by Syria. 11/21/06 Afghanistan Helmand 2 0 Religious extremists attack a police station, kidnap two officers, then kill them in captivity. 11/21/06 Iraq Baghdad 35 19 Islamic terrorists kill thirty-five people in a series of attacks on civilians. 11/20/06 Iraq Baghdad 3 5 Jihadis kill three people with a bomb at a market. 11/20/06 Iraq Baghdad 14 0 Fourteen victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found bound and executed. 11/20/06 Thailand Sungai Kolok 2 16 Muslim terrorists detonate a bomb at a market, killing two people. 11/20/06 Iraq Ramadi 2 6 Two people are killed by a suicide bomber. 11/20/06 Iraq Mosul 3 4 Three people are killed by a suicide bomber. 11/20/06 Iraq Baghdad 2 0 A doctor and an actor are murdered by Islamic gunmen in separate attacks. 11/20/06 Iraq Dujayl 7 0 Seven men are kidnapped and brutally killed by Muslim terrorists. 11/20/06 Iraq Taji 5 0 Extremists kidnap five men from a restaurant, torture and murder them. 11/20/06 Iraq Tal Afar 3 0 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills three other people. Edited by speeddealer (11/29/06 02:38 PM)
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unbeliever Yo Daddy! Registered: 05/22/04 Posts: 5,158 Loc: Gallifrey Last seen: 15 years, 1 month |
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Wow that's some fucking retarded propaghanda there. I could take the violent crime statistics from the U.S. and claim that it means America is a country of violent criminals but.. okay well.. we're pretty violent and like to carpet bomb, but not all of us.
Generalizations are small minded. Quote: That there just proved to me that you're a ninny without a clue. 
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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speeddealer Stranger Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Ouch...hm, I thought we were having a discussion and you have to throw insults. Is that the best you can do--attack the person? I'll show you that I am a better person than your parents ever taught you to be by taking the high road and ignoring your insults. Before I go...since, your whole arument is based on moral equivalence--please show me how many Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, Satanists, Buddhists, etc killed in the name of their god this week. Please? I'm waiting for empirical data that disputes the facts: Islam is not peaceful unless your are subjugated to it.
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JonnyOnTheSpot Sober Surfer Registered: 01/27/02 Posts: 11,528 Loc: North Carolina |
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Quote: no, actually it's a fact that more muslims civilians have died compared to israeli civilians. it's not some crazy leftist conspiracy theory, it's the truth. heres some simple charts for you, all with sources. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ and my assumptions about the cycle of violence that will result from israel's careless retaliations are not some far fetched view. actually the CIA put out a report awhile back which basically reached the same conclusion about muslim terrorism Quote: yes, and kill 10,000 or so 'accidentally' and you're ok. flatten a whole town with tanks and it's ok as long as you didn't mean to hurt anyone besides the terrorists...woops. the israeli government doesn't even apologize to the families of their victims after they become collateral damage. why? i think they simply don't give a shit about Palestinian civilians dying in the crossfire of their retaliations. i'm not saying the terrorists are justified or that the israeli's are worse than the terrorists. all i'm saying is that the israeli's commit atrocities too, and anyone who cannot see that must surely be blind to the reality of the situation.
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Economist in training  Registered: 10/11/05 Posts: 1,285 Last seen: 16 years, 7 months |
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Quote: I reject this claim, which was the basis of my first post. It is completely incorrect to claim: a) that Israel is only defending it's right to exist b) that without Israel all jews would be slaughtered in a sea of muslim extremism B is easier to prove, so I'll start there. Look at the island of Djerba. A jewish community has coexisted peacefully in the midst of a muslim majority for hundreds of years. In contemporary times they experienced 1 terrorist attack in 2004, for which Al Queda claimed responsibility, and was roundly denounced by local islamic leaders. No further attacks followed. Further proof would be the King of Morocco who, despite following Islam, retains a Jewish court advisor to this day. The King not only denounced the last attacks on Jews in Morocco (which occured in 2004), but has also invited more Jews into his country, and has tried to pursue policies in order to facilitate the immigration of Jewish peoples into Morocco. The state of Israel isn't actively defending the Jewish populations of Djerba or Morocco, and yet they haven't been completely slaughtered by Islamic extremists. Indeed, they've even suffered fewer attacks than those Jews living behind the defensive fortifications of Israel itself! So no, without Israel the Jewish people would not be slaughtered. As for A, as I stated in my last post, after the building of the wall, and the requirements regarding extra work permits and papers, Israel has very clearly and obviously made Palestinians into second-class citizens. Perhaps, prior to the wall, the work permits, the special "visas", the transit papers, etc. Israel could justify its actions by "defending it's right to exist" but ever since these institutions were introduced the Palestinian people became really and truly oppressed. Unfortunately, this grants credence to the notion that some may truly be "Freedom Fighters". If Israel were to end the oppression, take down the wall, and eliminate the permits, visas, and papers, this would very likely undermine the so-called "terrorist infrastructure". After all, isn't it worth noting that Hamas could only gather enough votes for a majority AFTER the wall started going up?
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psilomonkey Twisted brainwro  Registered: 08/08/03 Posts: 812 Loc: Airstrip One |
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To be fair to Great Satan, that was one of his more level headed posts, my comment was more in reference to vast majority of his posts about Muslims and Islam.
And of course there are evil people, there are also a number of apologists for the inexcusable, especially on the loony left who have fallen for the fallacy "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". That was my point and the point to the link I posted. I was also pointing out there are also those that fall for the fallacy, "Most Terrorists are Muslim, therefore Muslims are terrorists". And that aids the terrorists, as if we treat people like terrorists, at worse they may start acting like terrorists or they may simply turn a blind eye to the activities of others.
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speeddealer Stranger Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Thank you for helping me to prove my point even further! It's a common tactic of the left to use the argument of moral equivalence: that somehow, a higher body count on the Muslim side means that the Jews should show more restraint. It's bullshit and a really flawed argument. Does that mean that whoever kills more people is the loser? Uh, please explain this to me-I am pretty bright, but slow on the uptake sometimes. These populations elected Hamas and Hezbollah, they are complicit in the deaths of all the people those organizations targeted and murdered in cold blood. If the statistics were reversed, would you suddenly start cheerleading for the Jews? (somehow I really doubt it) These red and blue body count graphs, do nothing for me but show that one side is better armed and better equipped and as unfair as it may seem, history dictates that those that are better armed usually win. I could care less if if it were 100,000 deaths to one--point is you target women and children, you die and have doomed your whole worthless cause. Islam WAS a great religion, they gave us so many things--coffee, arabic numerals, the basis of science. But that is so far in the past, that our generation will always remember them as terrorists. Unless Islam gets it's collective act in gear real soon, they are not winning the PR war for moderates like me. Warfare should be total, as it was in WWII--Germans targeted civilians in the UK and Poland and were themselves target of ruthless carpet bombing campaigns by the Allies. While I don't agree with targeting civilians, it is sometimes necessary to win a war. For example: George Bush is our President, lots here don't like it--but that makes you all complicit in the evil pro Israeli/great Satan agenda (sic) That means that despite all of your defense of Islam you become a legitimate target the moment you go to work, set foot on a plane...just as every Jewish, man, woman, and child is when they step on a bus or go shopping, or sit in their homes wondering when Hezbollah is going to start dropping bombs again. Islam made the rules, the Jews are merely abiding by them.
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speeddealer Stranger Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Two anecdotes does not an argument make...Besides these are REALLY isolated examples of Islam's 'tolerance'. I could provide you with many more pieces of anecdotal evidence to the contrary:
-unrest in the French banlieues, where new Islamic arrivals can't even coexist with police or respect the rule of law -Islamic warlords exterminating Christian and Jews in Ethiopia, forcible castrating young males, and raping women -Islamic tolerance of...well everyone...in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore -The entire Sudanese government -The repeated targeting of Indian commuters by Pakistani extremists -Why are you not worried about the 'second class' Christians in Lebanon? They surely don't support Hezbollah, yet the Israeli guns kill them just the same! -Muslim tolerance of Copts in Egpyt If anecdotal evidence were a hill of beans, your hill is much smaller than mine... Edited by speeddealer (11/30/06 09:13 AM)
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Redstorm Prince of Bugs   Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 5 months, 26 days |
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Quote: If it is necessary, then why are you so mad at Islamic terrorists for doing it?
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Hank, FTW Looking for the Answer  Registered: 05/04/06 Posts: 3,912 |
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Maybe we should make this a total war then and see how long the Muslims last.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone " 
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Redstorm Prince of Bugs Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 5 months, 26 days |
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Wouldn't bother me one bit as long as it stays off of my continent.
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speeddealer Stranger Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Terrorism is not total warfare, it's low intensity violence aimed at shaping the minds of the public. They can't conquer a country with these tactics, they can only affect who you vote for. As can be seen by the opinions in this thread--it's achieving it's intended result.
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Redstorm Prince of Bugs Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 5 months, 26 days |
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How many people in this thread do you think voted for Hamas?
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speeddealer Stranger Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Did I say anyone voted for Hamas? I must've really lost you back there....lemme explain: My point was that for terrorism to work, it needs to affect the way people think. Wikipedia defines it as: Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political, nationalist, or religious goals You mean you voted for Bush? ewwww.
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JonnyOnTheSpot Sober Surfer Registered: 01/27/02 Posts: 11,528 Loc: North Carolina |
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Quote: first of all i never said that israelis and terrorists are morally equal. why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? i only posted in this thread in the first place to point out that israelis don't seem to be concerned with civilians casualties when they conduct military operations, and if they are truly concerned then they must be incompetent. Quote: they should show more restraint because it's the right thing to do, and it makes complete tactical sense to do so. being careless about civilian casualties will only harm them in years to come. in a conflict such as this where every action from either side is claimed to be a retaliation, you have to fight in a certain manner in order to truly eradicate the problem. if terrorists are hiding in a city you have to suck it up and send in infantry to kill them rather than shelling the town or launching rockets into it when you know innocent civilians will die if you do so. the careless killing of civilians only strengthens the terrorists and gives them more idealogical ammunition to convince people to join or sympathize with their cause. why don't you understand that? i'm not defending terrorists and arguing moral equivalence. i'm simply saying that israelis are obviously careless when it comes to preserving innocent life which results in them fighting a losing war because their tactics are flawed and their long term strategy is abysmal. israel can't just blow up civilians because the terrorists stoop to those tactics. a state such as israel has to mantain order and take the moral high ground or they play right into the terrorists hands. that's my take on the situation, and like i said before, i'm not the only person in the world who sees this obvious future. if everyone felt the way you do about muslims then the only way to ever eradicate the core issue would be to exterminate them all. luckily some people don't see everything in black and white and hopefully will find a way to solve the problem other than writing off a billion people as morally inferior violent terrorist nut jobs... Quote: how about vietnam for starters...it is possible to kill more people and still ultimately lose. you were just saying body counts prove nothing and now you're sarcastically implying that israel is winning because they've killed more people? the palestinian body count is nothing more than a indication of israels military carelessness and a perfect example of what not to do when fighting a bunch of people who feel shit on and oppressed by the world. and another thing...israel is always claiming they have to take action into their own hands because palestinian and lebanese forces either won't do so or are incapable of doing so, right? well let's look at lebanon this past summer. israel cries foul when the lebanese army fails to do something about hammas. so the israeli government responds by severly crippling the lebanese armies capabilities and destroying lebanese infrastructure? does that make sense to anyone else? when you set back the lebanese army and government by ten years then how can you ever expect them to be powerful enough to reprimand hammas? It's just another perfect example of the horribly nonsense tactics israel employs. For the most part lebanon was a fairly moderate nation before this past summer, and now hammas is trying to seize control of the country. So basically israel accomplished the exact opposite effect they desired. It's mind boggling.
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pokermush Waterboardingmys  Registered: 09/17/06 Posts: 475 Loc: Utah Last seen: 16 years, 1 day |
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Quote: Surely you know I was referring to the jews of Israel. Of course some might escape to other areas, but the explicit goal of the enemies of Israel is for Isreal to cease to exist and to kill all Isreali jews. But now that you mention it, there are plenty of muslim leaders, such as those in Iran, who call for the extermination of all jews, not just those in Israel. Quote:America hasn't been attacked in 5 years, so I guess they no longer want to kill us? Come on, 2 years without another attack means nothing. Quote:Good for him. I hope this radical and un-orthodox brand of Islam becomes more popular. You should also point out that despite his efforts, support for terrorism (against the US and Israel) is still strong among muslims in Morocco. Quote:I don't see how this is relevant. Most of the muslim world still calls for the destruction of Israel and the death (preferred) or exile of all jews living there. Quote:Obviously Israel is the #1 target of the muslim world. Quote:Carefully phrased, as you have, this is true. However, if Israel lowers its guard or softens its defenses, more innocent jews will be intentionally slaughtered. If Israel voluntarily and unilaterally disarmed, all jews that remain in Israel would be killed. Can you guarantee that if Israel dismantles this wall, it would not lead to the death of more Israelis? Israel has a right to defend itself, including erecting a fence to make it more difficult for hostile neighbors to attack. Quote:Remind me again, why was this wall built? Could it possibly have been in an effort to defend itself from the sea of muslims wanting to destroy Israel? That qualifies as self-defense. And honestly, how much of a distinction is there between the people who blow up a school bus (in case you forgot, a bus full of children going to school still qualifies as civilians) and the people dancing in the street to celebrate such a victory? These people were also dancing in the street as the twin towers fell. Do you remember that? Second-class citizens? Yes, but not by virtue of the wall. People who refuse to integrate peacefully into society are second-class citizens, and a society threatened by such people must take actions to protect itself. Quote:No, this would open the floodgates and leave Israeli citizens even more vulnerable. Quote:Isn't it true that the terrorists who attack Israeli civilians become revered celebrities? Do they not hold deep and broad support throughout the muslim world? When the wall goes up, obviously the regime in power is losing the war, and new leadership is necessary if any real progress is to be made toward the destruction of Israel. Peace and equality are available to all Palestinians when they decide (as a whole) that they are willing to have peace without first requiring the destruction of Israel.
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pokermush Waterboardingmys Registered: 09/17/06 Posts: 475 Loc: Utah Last seen: 16 years, 1 day |
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Quote:Agreed. My #1 complaint in this whole "war on terror" is that it isn't. It's a half-assed gentleman's war that we're trying to win with our hands tied behind our backs and without making anybody mad at us. And that's generous... today, much of it is merely to appear tough on terror without actually taking any tough action. Whatever your view on war, if we go to war we should fight it to win and get back to peace as quickly as possible. Drop the PC bullshit, we can apologize as necessary after we win.
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speeddealer Stranger Registered: 08/16/06 Posts: 142 Last seen: 14 years, 6 months |
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Quote: You are correct, I mis-spoke. You did not say this, you implied it by bringing big piles of dead bodies into the argument as if to suggest that the 'right-and-wrong-o-meter' is calibrated by measuring how many are killed in each side of the equation. It's inconsequential. My point was that there hasn't been a Jewish or Christian suicide bomber in years. Allah kills hundreds of people each week; Jesus Christ and Abraham kill far fewer. My point was that Islam is not a religion of peace. Why can't anyone stick to the argument and present me some facts that disagree with my assertion: Islam is not peaceful, unless you are subjugated to it. So, then you agree that the two sides are not morally equivalent. One side is right, and one side is wrong. It really is black and white; ireespective of the basic issues of land, who was here first (BTW-it was the Jews), gods, and guns. Resort to terror, lose your rights--sounds easy enough...After all how many chances do we give murderers in our own country? It seems we also agree that Israel could and should try to limit collateral casualties, though my argument earlier (to return to the core discussion) Is that Islam is in NO way to be construed as a religion of peace. Quote: Agreed. Israel could do better at preventing casualties, but at what cost? Yes, a laser bomb might miss it's target from time to time...but don't you think Jewish soldiers facing down rock throwing teens would result in more casualties? But once again, faced with bombs falling in civilian areas and suicide bombers lining up for buses---do YOU think that if you were the PM of Israel you would make correct decisions 100% of the time? I know I couldn't. Quote: Now come on, nobody's pitching genocide. Who's putting words in who's mouth? All I am saying (as un-PC as it is these days) is that Islam is not a religion of peace, it's warlike and intolerant and holds most of us out to be infidels. It is exclusive of democracy and women's rights wherever it's practices and does not do very well in peacefully coexisting with the borders of a larger, secular state. Most of Islam is at odds with Western Liberalism and our core values and we should be watching it closely. Not standing up telling lies about it, because we are afraid of what the 'Arab Street' has to say. Quote: I chose my words carefully, care to re-read them? "history dictates that those that are better armed usually win." This is basic Hobbesian philosophy... Quote: Lebanese militias decided NOT to face down Hezbollah, they ignored the orders of their government and commanders and would not fight. After years of Syrian rule they were not as well armed, well financed, or well supported as Hezbollah was in the south. The only group to stand up and be counted with Israel were the Druze. The Lebanese army will NEVER be able to stand against Hezbollah, and that was by Syrian design. (Oh those wacky Syrians) Moderate? Yeah, some....but those voices can't be heard over the voice in favor of Hezbollah. Hezbollah builds roads, and schools, so they can brainwash a new wave of terorrists. Hezbollah was supposed to exist to resist the Israeli occupation from Southern Lebanon. That happened, and Hezbollah became even more powerful after Israel left. Can you tell me now, since I've been asking for days now: why do people lie about Islam's tolerance and propensity for peace? Edited by speeddealer (11/30/06 01:03 PM)
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