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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Suicide [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #6301752 - 11/20/06 04:51 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Well, it is my preference that suicide be reserved for a time when the quality of life has declined to the point that it ceases to have any meaningful value to me. Self pity, depression, and feelings of victimization have no place in the making of this decision. I am responsible for all of my thoughts, actions and reactions. This leaves no room for anything other than action to be taken or not. I live my life out of joy, and would seek to end my life out of joy as well if this ever became a need. On the whole I value life a lot, and I view it as a sacred gift, just as ones ability to express their freedom of choice is also a sacred gift. Maybe I am not the correct person to comfort the chronically depressed or suicidal...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
Re: Suicide - what is this thread about? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6301781 - 11/20/06 05:32 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

and that is your perspective about suicide
which is great,
it's not an answer to all suicidals, nor the rule to all non-suicidals,
but a perspective.
which is great.
perspectives that rock are what this forum is about.
not answers.

comfort on the other hand can be gleaned from very unusual channels.
i.e. a there-therapist does more than "there there"


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Suicide [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6301956 - 11/20/06 07:52 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Given that life is mostly dukkha (disappointment, unsatisfactory)

I think you've made quite an assumption here.




Have I? I arrive at that conclusion by reflecting on reality and existence. Aside from physical suffering, there are all sorts of other sufferings, for instance

- the suffering of losing something you like
- the suffering of not getting what you want
- the suffering of sickness
- the suffering of old age
- the suffering of death

Certainly there are times of joy when you get what you want and such, but those times are fleeting, since nothing lasts; either you or your object of desire will decay and rot, and either way it will cause suffering because you will not be able to hold on to the object of your desire.

Quote:

Anyway, what is so 'bad' about suffering?




Nothing is 'bad' about it. I just don't particularly enjoy it. Do you?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Suicide - what is this thread about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6302002 - 11/20/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I found Hues words to be of great comfort and inspiration. Such opinions are hard to come by. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Suicide [Re: dblaney]
    #6302011 - 11/20/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I arrive at that conclusion by reflecting on reality and existence. Aside from physical suffering, there are all sorts of other sufferings, for instance

- the suffering of losing something you like
- the suffering of not getting what you want
- the suffering of sickness
- the suffering of old age
- the suffering of death

Certainly there are times of joy when you get what you want and such, but those times are fleeting, since nothing lasts; either you or your object of desire will decay and rot, and either way it will cause suffering because you will not be able to hold on to the object of your desire.


By the tone of your post, my guess is you are depressed and focused on suffering. Suffering is just as fleeting as pleasure. You choose mostly, except for physical suffering. Most of the sufferings in your list are avoided by learning to accept life. Those sufferings are caused by addictions brother. If you only preferred certain outcomes instead of insisting that they be the only conditions for your happiness then life and perspective would seem to be different.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
Re: Suicide - what is this thread about? [Re: Icelander]
    #6302027 - 11/20/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

ice,
the personal admiration society is not the good part about this forum.
but I agree,
his voice is resonant.
I am a bit more for open kareoke
than closed band jam sessions.
but this is not about suicide any more.
nor is it about suffering to the point of discussing suicide.
it is getting to be about who are we and why would someone talk about suicide with us.
and then
why would we kneejerk him out of the same old same old jam session, while this should be kareoke.
sing
heckle
sing
heckle.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Suicide - what is this thread about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6302047 - 11/20/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

the personal admiration society is not the good part about this forum.

It's not so personal. His name appeared with the post. Anyone else would do. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #6302064 - 11/20/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I arrive at that conclusion by reflecting on reality and existence. Aside from physical suffering, there are all sorts of other sufferings, for instance

- the suffering of losing something you like
- the suffering of not getting what you want
- the suffering of sickness
- the suffering of old age
- the suffering of death

Certainly there are times of joy when you get what you want and such, but those times are fleeting, since nothing lasts; either you or your object of desire will decay and rot, and either way it will cause suffering because you will not be able to hold on to the object of your desire.


By the tone of your post, my guess is you are depressed and focused on suffering. Suffering is just as fleeting as pleasure. You choose mostly, except for physical suffering. Most of the sufferings in your list are avoided by learning to accept life. Those sufferings are caused by addictions brother. If you only preferred certain outcomes instead of insisting that they be the only conditions for your happiness then life and perspective would seem to be different.




I can see how I could seem depressed, but no, I am indeed cheerful.

DO YOU HEAR ME!? I'M FUCKING CHEERFUL!!!

AGHHHH!! :crankey:

:grin: :wink:

But yeah, I agree, acceptance of those sufferings does reduce their potency, but can it completely change them? Do they cease to be suffering at all?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Suicide [Re: dblaney]
    #6302216 - 11/20/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

All of those "varieties" of suffering have the same root: clinging to the impermanent.  This was proposed by the Buddha, seconded by Freud, expanded upon by Albert Ellis and Ken Keyes, Jr.

We choose to suffer by clinging and grasping at our material reality, by identifying with our bodies and experiences.  We do not choose to experience pain, but we choose to transform the fleeting sensations of emotional or physical pain into a prolonged sufferance.

To fully recognise this choosing AND put the knowledge into practice in one's life is to become free.  :heart:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
Re: Suicide [Re: Veritas]
    #6302235 - 11/20/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

the impunity to be able to declare

start this (pleasure) now
stop this (suffering) now

as if we all were kings and queens of Egypt.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6302244 - 11/20/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Better that than Kings and Queens of Denial.  :wink:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Suicide [Re: dblaney]
    #6302505 - 11/20/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

the suffering of losing something you like
the suffering of not getting what you want

These might cause some disappointment, but I don't think either has ever caused awful suffering for me. Losing something I like and not getting what I want probably won't physically harm me in any way or threaten my existence. They're inconveniences. I try not to have any unrealistic expectations about my life - shit happens, I lose things, I'm denied things, people might not like me, I can't run as long as I would like to, I might end up working at a job I hate, I need to get laid, etc. I do not expect to be able to always get what I want or to live a life full of joy and free from challenges. All these inconveniences I can deal with and none of them seem to take the value out of life.

the suffering of old age

I've met a lot of cheerful old folks. Other than the sicknesses caused by the natural degeneration of the human body over time, I don't see why old age and suffering should be correlated.

Nothing is 'bad' about it. I just don't particularly enjoy it. Do you?

I don't enjoy it, yet sometimes it leads to fulfilling ends. (I'm quite opposed to the position that suffering should be absolutely avoided.) If I determined the worth of my life by how enjoyable it was, believe me, I would've killed myself by now.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 38,063
Re: Suicide [Re: Veritas]
    #6302551 - 11/20/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i would love to see denial at da foist upputoonity


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Suicide [Re: Veritas]
    #6302560 - 11/20/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

We choose to suffer by clinging and grasping at our material reality, by identifying with our bodies and experiences.

I think few people choose to suffer. Our culture seems to do a poor job of giving its young - or old for that matter - a realistic picture of life. Pop culture, sitcoms, celebrity obsessions, movies, etc, all seem like very bad models for reality. Yet they are the most widely used form of entertainment. I think this is where people pick up many of their irrational beliefs and musterbations. Most of humanity doesn't look as beautiful or healthy as movies stars, but I've noticed quite a lot of people who believe they must look this way too. Real life isn't as simple, easy, and entertaining as the lives of characters on sitcoms, but I expect there are people out their who believe it should be. I think most people suffer because they've been brought up in a culture that is obsessed with the rich and beautiful - and no one has informed them they aren't expected to be rich and beautiful too. Fantasy has been confused with reality.

Edited by MushmanTheManic (11/20/06 12:09 PM)

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InvisibleRavus
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Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Suicide [Re: dblaney]
    #6302590 - 11/20/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

People should first find out what makes them happy and strive towards that. Then, after they accomplish it, if they're not already dead, they should take their life into their own hands- in whatever way they want this to be.

Suicide is not the only option, because death comes inevitably anyway. The question is whether you'd rather see the decay of your body and mind in old age, yet still have the chance to see whatever you've created grow, or whether you would rather just shoot yourself and let whatever you created grow without you watching. Either way it doesn't really matter.

If people want to kill themselves before they find out what makes them happy or create anything of lasting value, like in most teen suicides, then that is also their choice. For some people, life is an error.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 38,063
Re: Suicide [Re: Ravus]
    #6302647 - 11/20/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

who choses to suffer?
who even chooses?
mostly it seems people are rattling around like nuts in their shells.
any judgment seems to be devoted to
rattle now
or wait a minute.

kind of like the thoughts of cows:
"eat, eat, eat", and then "run away..."

the suffering is like an alarm - wake up in pain!
rattle now, or don't?

my nut likes to pause
actually it likes to be ornery
rattling when it's least expected, and still when prodden


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
Up From Sloth
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Registered: 08/28/05
Posts: 668
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Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6302747 - 11/20/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

the less aware one is, the less a choice it all is. the more aware, the more a choice.

those among us who may be depressed are usually aware, but choose to ignore all aspects and focus on the "yuk."

Sometimes i like the "yum," but I can't fool myself. I'm depressed. I'm not depressed. All of it is worthwhile.

but reality is certainly a game of push and pull. sometimes you push, and sometimes you are pushed. but i've found that the more awareness, the more control, the more will to push.

but there's no wrong or right about it. push. be pushed. actively engage or surrender. try it all.


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"

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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
Up From Sloth
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Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Suicide [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #6302761 - 11/20/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

and no, don't look at my "mood barometer" in that last post. a single word can't characterize how i feel. but on the whole, i feel good.


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Suicide [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #6302890 - 11/20/06 02:08 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

yuk and yum is good
got to run away now


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Re: Suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6302978 - 11/20/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i think suicide is facinating. most people think the idea of death in general is repulsive. they are terrified of considering the end of their own or other's existences. To be painfully honest, I think the idea of ending one's own life is... powerful.

I don't value life like most people do. It's hard to explain my point of view. I think of life like a game of poker, you play what you're dealt. If you want to fold, by all means. If you're dealt a losing hand, well thats just how the cards lie. It's hard to maintain any sense of responsibility or value or empathy for anything.

The way I see it is that once you are dead, everything that is or once was relating to you is severed at least from "your" perspective. None of it matters, and since you don't have the capability of desiring to live any longer, you don't care that you're dead. It's kind of like the anticipation of giving a big speech where after everything is said and done, the anticipation is completely gone and doesn't bother you anymore.

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