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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
#6301719 - 11/20/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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> I am annoyed at how some people characterize everybody who is against illegal immigrants as being a racist or a xenophone.
I am against illegal immigration and I am certainly not racist of xenophobic.
> So, what do we do?
I don't see what the big problem is. Punish those that hire or support illegal immigrants. No citizenship if born in the US unless at least one of the parents is also a citizen. Increase man power to get rid of illegals and watch the borders. For every illegal deported, allow one extra "legal" person on the waiting list entry into the country in order to maintain the status quo. Charge the country that the illegal is from for the costs of sending the person back and for tax payers loss while that person was here.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
#6302288 - 11/20/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Isn't this the consequence of free market economics?
Yes.
Quote:
Alex213 said: If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?
I have nothing against the free movement of labor in most cases. However, I am not dogmatic with my economic principles. If something isn't working then you need to do things to correct it...even if it happens to go against your basic ideology. But, I was not talking about the free movement of labor with my post; I was talking about non-citizens mooching off of the system and barely paying anything into it.
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: angryshroom]
#6302339 - 11/20/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Living in San Diego most my life, and living in California my entire life, I don't really see how they are costing us money. Yes, there is probably a percent of illegals who are milking the government in some way.
Yes a LARGE percent.. Ever wonder why a new hospital is forced to close every year in SoCal? Its because of mexicans not paying their bill.
I work with a lady who bags groceries at my store for minimum wage. She used to work for the county at the welfare office where she knows first hand how illegals come over fresh from the fence, walk in and walk out with a check for $400. ANY pregnant woman coming across automatically gets unlimited free medical care PLUS $400 a week until the baby is born. Then they can apply for real assistance and get an average $660 a week. FREE.
And all that money comes from you and me.
I work with about 65 Hispanic people and they ALL have an illegal relative(s) spitting out babies and picking up checks and going to the hospital for free. One who works directly with me has a sister with some major medical problems and has had over $100,000 in medical care but shes an illegal and still the hospital keeps doing more and more for her. Plus the lady gets a check for taking care of her sisters retarded 14yo son. 
The amount of welfare given to illegals is out of control.. We should cut off all funding immediately and until we change our medical system we should turn away any illegal seeking medical attention.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
#6302493 - 11/20/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It is not up to America to take on the population of Mexico and other central American populations. Why don't those governments start supporting their own populations? I am just happy I am in Canada, but already I have heard stories from a friend in Vancouver, of Mexican gangsters setting up shop in the drug trade over there.
I realize most of the people coming across the border just want a better life, but they are getting it at the expense of your native population. At some point you have to say "what is in the best interest of MY country".
Just my humble opinion.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: GabbaDj]
#6302702 - 11/20/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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> I don't really see how they are costing us money.
Huge cost!
> walk in and walk out with a check for $400.
No they don't. Checks leave a paper trail. They are paid in cash. Tax free.
> The amount of welfare given to illegals is out of control..
Yep.
> We should cut off all funding immediately and until we change our medical system we should turn away any illegal seeking medical attention.
Slipper sloap for me on this one. I have compassion, but I don't like to be taken advantage of.
> I realize most of the people coming across the border just want a better life, but they are getting it at the expense of your native population.
Not only do they screw the native population, but the screw every single person that is waiting to come over legally as well.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
#6304325 - 11/20/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: True. It costs money to have them here and it costs money to patrol our border to stop them. However, it would probably just be cheaper and easier to shoot anybody that attempted to come over the border.
I still don't understand.
Wouldn't it ACTUALLY be cheapest to just give everyone citizenship and make them all taxable as a result?
I don't know if you realize it, but you're using the exact same arguments used to back the war on drugs but you're applying it to immigration instead of drugs.
Let's restrict drugs is equivalent to let's restrict citizenship.
Addicts put a strain on police and treatment resources is the same as illegals put a strain on hospitals and education. In both cases, if the underlying restriction wasn't there (possession or citizenship) then the costs associated wouldn't be there (less need for police, and immigrants pay taxes).
But instead of legalization, you're going in favor of greater restrictions and greater punishment. Increase border controls, increase punishments (you've even suggesting lethality here).
In both cases, drugs and immigration, the cheapest most effective method would be to simply remove the restrictions causing the problem.
Allow the sale and possession of drugs, and give citizenship to anyone that wants it. The tax revenue alone should make these options more efficient than the current scheme.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
#6304940 - 11/21/06 02:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
Alex213 said: Isn't this the consequence of free market economics?
Yes.
Quote:
Alex213 said: If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?
I have nothing against the free movement of labor in most cases. However, I am not dogmatic with my economic principles. If something isn't working then you need to do things to correct it...even if it happens to go against your basic ideology. But, I was not talking about the free movement of labor with my post; I was talking about non-citizens mooching off of the system and barely paying anything into it.
Isn't the "system" what every free marketeer hates most tho? Sure it might not do the system any good but every illegal worker is boosting the market enormously by working for slave labour rates.
Why not simply allow every immigrant who wants entry into the US? That would drive wages down until unless americans were willing to live 18 to one room like the immigrants they would all be put out of work.
Isn't this the logical consequence of the free market? People on the right seemed quite happy when business went abroad to hire cheap labour, now business is learning it doesn't need to go abroad. Cheap immigrant labour will come to it in America.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6304977 - 11/21/06 03:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't know if you realize it, but you're using the exact same arguments used to back the war on drugs but you're applying it to immigration instead of drugs.
The difference is in who it effects. Illegal immigration is like an illegal withdraw from a bank (robbery). The person making the withdraw benefits while everybody else suffers. When I eat a mushroom, or smoke some DMT, the only person that suffers is me. The illegal immigration debate and the illegal drug debate have almost nothing in common.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
#6305027 - 11/27/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?
the unregulated movement of labor across the border is just fine. the unregulated movement of people is not.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
#6306739 - 11/28/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?
the unregulated movement of labor across the border is just fine. the unregulated movement of people is not.
So you believe that if there are immigrants who will live 18 to one room and undercut american workers they should simply be employed in preference to american workers?
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
#6306799 - 11/28/06 03:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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not really,people around you suffer if you fuck up on drugs but i agree about apples and oranges being fruit but different kinds of fruit
scabs are scabs,they undermine everyone/everything cept themselves
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
#6306824 - 11/28/06 04:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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> not really,people around you suffer if you fuck up on drugs
People around me might suffer from my drug use the same way people aroudn me might suffer from my car use. If I rob a bank, there is no might about it.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
#6306844 - 11/28/06 05:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The illegal immigrant might benefit to a small extent but certainly nowhere near the benefit of the business employing him.
I thought the free market rule was if business benefits we all somehow benefit?
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
#6306918 - 11/28/06 06:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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So you believe that if there are immigrants who will live 18 to one room and undercut american workers they should simply be employed in preference to american workers?
yes. that extra money that people would otherwise be spending on say, farm labor, doesn't just disappear. it's spent in other areas, creating jobs. if this were not the case, it would be economically beneficial, if impractical and unjust, to deport a large amount of the naturalized workforce to boost wages. such a strategy, like nearly all government interferences in the free market, would not only be impractical and unjust, but make matters worse economically.
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Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
#6307045 - 11/28/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: The difference is in who it effects. Illegal immigration is like an illegal withdraw from a bank (robbery). The person making the withdraw benefits while everybody else suffers. When I eat a mushroom, or smoke some DMT, the only person that suffers is me. The illegal immigration debate and the illegal drug debate have almost nothing in common.
I'm not really clear on the "everyone else suffers" part.
Last I checked, illegal immigration allows prices of most farming produce, and other cosumer goods to remain low. As with anything else necessary for life, cheaper food helps the American poor more than any other group.
I don't think it's clear that if all the jobs going to illegals went to legal workers instead that the benefits of more employment would outweigh the benefits of unemployment. This is especially important right now given our extremely low unemployment rates, I just don't know if there are Americans who would take those jobs at all.
@Alex213
Wow, talk about some strawmen.
The point of free markets is most certainly NOT "Whatever is good for a business is good for us all," Were this true, then so-called "corporate welfare" would be something free-marketeers agreed with, instead of something they opposed.
The situation with illegal immigrants living 18 to a room is the result of regulation, not the free market. Illegal immigrants have to live that way because they are breaking the law by being here. If they gained citizenship, they could begin to participate in the open market for housing.
Claiming that they would still live 18 to a room if they were legal is like claiming that crack-gang related violence would still continue if crack were legalized. As we learned during alcohol prohibition, once the underlying cause is legalized, the negative externalitites go away.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
#6307087 - 11/28/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: So you believe that if there are immigrants who will live 18 to one room and undercut american workers they should simply be employed in preference to american workers?
yes. that extra money that people would otherwise be spending on say, farm labor, doesn't just disappear. it's spent in other areas, creating jobs. if this were not the case, it would be economically beneficial, if impractical and unjust, to deport a large amount of the naturalized workforce to boost wages. such a strategy, like nearly all government interferences in the free market, would not only be impractical and unjust, but make matters worse economically.
So you're saying that if millions of chinese or indian people want to come to the United States to work then you can see absolutely no problem with that? No matter how many americans they put out of work?
Supposing one of them took your job by offering to undercut your wage by two-thirds, what would you do?
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6307102 - 11/28/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The situation with illegal immigrants living 18 to a room is the result of regulation,
No, it's happening in the UK with legal immigrants. Business knows it can pay them a pittance with next to no chance of ever being caught and the immigrants are forced to live 18 to a room because they can't afford anything else. There's little to no regulation here in the UK. At least 600,000 immigrants have arrived in just the last 2 years. It's the greatest level of immigration Britain has ever experienced. The government has realised immigrants drive wages through the floor and keep inflation down and are encouraging as many as they possibly can.
If they gained citizenship, they could begin to participate in the open market for housing.
Nope, even when they're legal they still work for wages you can't buy accomodation with.
Claiming that they would still live 18 to a room if they were legal
It's not a claim, this is how legal immigrants are living in Britain right now. They are willing to undercut the living wage because compared to the money they get in Poland it's worth it.
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
#6307482 - 11/28/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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people suffer from pollution because of car use regardless of how hopeless you are behind the wheel...same as people around you will suffer *when you fuck up on drugs
*i was going to put when/if but you seem picky
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
#6307762 - 11/28/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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So you're saying that if millions of chinese or indian people want to come to the United States to work then you can see absolutely no problem with that?
not as a result of them working, no.
No matter how many americans they put out of work?
look, it's not like there is a fixed number of jobs available, and every time an immigrant goes to work, a native gets canned. do you know where jobs come from?
Supposing one of them took your job by offering to undercut your wage by two-thirds, what would you do?
i don't know... maybe i'd blame my poor fortune on those damn foreigners who are willing to work for less than i am (how dare they) and start demanding the government keep my employer from hiring them, ignoring the creation of jobs and wealth resulting elsewhere.
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Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
#6308185 - 11/28/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: No, it's happening in the UK with legal immigrants. Business knows it can pay them a pittance with next to no chance of ever being caught and the immigrants are forced to live 18 to a room because they can't afford anything else.
Can you provide some sources for some of this? Not just that there's one instance of 18 people living in one room, but what their wages were and how that compared to rents in the area.
In the US migrant workers and illegal workers usually earn enough money to afford a reasonable rent, however, they are price-gouged by landlords who know they are illegal. This is documented by both the the US government gov/srd/papers/pdf/ex95-22.pdf]http://www.census[dot]gov/srd/papers/pdf/ex95-22.pdf see page 29, and the media:
Quote:
In most areas farm workers pay inordinately high rent for substandard, overcrowded housing close to work pick-up sites. In Immokalee, the majority of migrant workers live in a nine-block area adjacent to the parking lot by the coalition’s office. ... Given the figures provided by Cortez and other workers, the owners of the trailers and apartments are getting around $1,500 to $2,000 per month for their units, obviously far more than normal market value in the area.
from: http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featlydersen_immokalee.shtml
A quick check of real estate prices in rural Florida reveals that $750-$1000/mo will rent you a very reasonable multiple-bedroom apartment (http://www.2chambers.com/immokalee,_florida.htm you may need to sign in to view apartment rents, sorry but I can't find a workaround). In other words, if the tenants were able to rent on the open market in rural Florida, they would not have to live the way they do.
It's also important to remember that legal/illegal status isn't the only barrier to market participation. In both Britain and the United States there's probably a significant language barrier, as well as a question of who is "trustworthy".
Nonetheless, from the available accounts, it seems like immigrant living conditions in the US have everything to do with their immigration status and very little to do with their wages.
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