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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Illegal Immigration
    #6300000 - 11/19/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I am annoyed at how some people characterize everybody who is against illegal immigrants as being a racist or a xenophone.  I (and many other people) are against illegal immigrants because they cost us money.  It is very common for illegals to come to America and either work under the table or work very low-paying official jobs.  So, they are either not paying any money into the system or they are paying very little into the system.  Yet they often will enroll their children in public schools, get their kids on the Medicaid program, and apply for other benefits.  So, they may pay several thousand a year in taxes but they are taking tens of thousands of dollars in benefits.  I don't like this.  It is the equivalent of somebody moving into your home against your will and proceeding to give you $50 a month all the while incurring $500 a month in expenses for you.

I'm not a racist.  I don't fear minorities.  I don't desire to "keep America white" or some nonsense like that.  I just don't want my money taken away from me and spent on people who have no legal right to be here.  :shrug:

So, what do we do?  Do we continue doing what we are doing (which has proven completely inneffective).  Do we grant amnesty for current illegals?  Do we offer "guest worker visas" for non-Americans?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300085 - 11/19/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I certainly don't think it's racist to oppose illegal immigration. However, I think that it's a bit unrealistic to just have an all-out war against it. I support the idea of guest-worker visas, to help keep it under control.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6300126 - 11/19/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Good point. It is almost impossible to stop such a huge problem that is being driven by market forces. When money is involved people manage to find a way around the law. Americans and American companies want cheap labor and Mexicans can make more money in America than they do in their native country.

But, what we are doing isn't working and we need to come up with some new policies.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300162 - 11/19/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

there needs to be a system in place where they can come here to work, but must be registered and approved, and must pay taxes required to fund the program. they've got to be at least 16 and they must be here to work. they should not be eligible for social services and their kids don't become citizens by being born here. there ya go.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
    #6300276 - 11/19/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

That is as impossible as the war on drugs...it would be a huge waste of rescources for little effect. You can't hunt out every illegal and you can't seperate people from their children or stop them from having them.

There already is a system where they can come here and work...its called the naturalization process. We need to offer quicker naturalization and MORE of it to peoples from latin ameria for one. They moreso than any other share the elements of America's culture for one thing and they amount to the majority of illegals (IME, anyway).


Guest worker programs will be used to subvert the worker unions already in place in agriculture and the like and will make job benefits and wages worse off for the americans already here. Instead of illegals coming and stealing american jobs it wil be the government doling out labor and stealing american jobs. This would make a guest worker program a huge, corrupt, trap. American agribusiness already has half the politicians in their pocket and this would only increase that problem

Another thing would be to seriously take a look at the effect of trade agreements from the past 25 years simply from a cost/benefit POV considering this issue.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300293 - 11/19/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I think the reason people take that stance is those most adamently opposed to illegal immigration take a rascist tone and frame your side of the argument. It happens with all political topics, like enviornmentalism. Most americans are for enviornmental ideas to some degree but the ones most in favor of it are downright fanatcis sometimes so to call yourself an enviornmentalist immediately brings about all sorts of assumptions


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300675 - 11/19/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Its interesting because illegal immigrants, mainly being from Mexico, tend to work in the fields, and do jobs that pay minimum wage, or under minimum wage at best. The only way they would do these jobs is because they are suppressed from achieving anything because they are illegal.

I worked at a restaurant  for a few years where we employed a lot of Mexicans, who I absolutely loved working with. They would talk about their cousins, brothers, etc working out in the fields who were making $5/hr. This is $1.75 under minimum wage!

Of course, since they are suppressed, they cannot go to the city and complain about not making minimum wages!

Living in San Diego most my life, and living in California my entire life, I don't really see how they are costing us money. Yes, there is probably a percent of illegals who are milking the government in some way.

But most, and I mean MOST Mexicans that I know of or see, WORK THEIR ASSES OFF. They make enough to get by. The taxes raised from them (if they were taxed), wouldn't be even that much of a incentive to the government in my opinion.

I feel white and black people who are legal milk the system MUCH MORE, with social programs and whatnot.

How do illegals milk the system if they aren't even legal?!? Thats what I dont understand. How are they able to milk the system if they aren't even known to be in the country?! (Besides the fact they dont pay taxes on their HUGE salaries  :rolleyes:)

My $.02

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300688 - 11/19/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Randalflagg,

I think the problem is that you are blaming immigrants for a plethora of other, senseless laws that aren't their fault.

Let's examine some of your concerns:
Immigrants take low-paying "under the table" jobs.

Is this the fault of immigrants, or the fault of an artificially high minimum wage, and federal employee benefit requirements? If those jobs were offered on the open market to everyone it's highly likely that unemployed citizens would pick them up.

We know that the free market has set wages much higher than the minimum wage in many areas (i.e. New York City), so isn't it likely that the "natural wage" in many areas would actually be lower than the minimum wage? Areas like rural Texas or rural Arizona, where many illegal immigrants settle?

What if we had a system where communities set their own minimum wages? Then rural Texas could set a lower wage and become more competitive, allowing illegitimate jobs to become legitimate and employment to florish among citizens.

Then you make the claim about taxes.

Again, who's fault is that? We're the ones who arrest and deport them if they register for taxes. If we let them become citizens, they'd ALL be paying taxes.

As for medicaid and education, again is that the fault of the immigrants? It's no secret that the American public school system already spends more per pupil than its European counterparts for lower-returns. Is it the fault of immigrants that we have established a grossly inneficient system? If we cleaned the system up and made it more efficient, wouldn't that be a better idea than spending even MORE money trying to keep illegal immigrants out?

The same thing goes for Medicare. It's our fault for offering it in the first place. Why don't we just with hold treatment? Or better yet, why don't we set up a more efficient system overall?

It seems like you're trying to blame a lot of America's systematic problems on immigrants, when the real problem is inefficiency on the part of American institutions.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6300749 - 11/19/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Immigrants built this country, despite the popular opinion that we built this city on rock and roll. :grin:

:levitate:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: angryshroom]
    #6300756 - 11/19/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

angryshroom said:
How do illegals milk the system if they aren't even legal?!? Thats what I dont understand. How are they able to milk the system if they aren't even known to be in the country?!




They often send their kids to public schools. The last time I checked it costs about $10,000-$15,000 a year to educate a child in a public school. They also are sometimes able to get their kids on Medicaid (where the government pays for the medical expenses of poor people). There also have been instances of them getting public subsidized housing. And, let's not forget when illegals get sick, go to the emergency room, and end up not paying the hospital bill.

Illegals cost us a lot of money plain and simple.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300792 - 11/19/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
They often send their kids to public schools.  The last time I checked it costs about $10,000-$15,000 a year to educate a child in a public school.




Yeah, it is just awful when we educate a young child. :mad:

:levitate:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6300795 - 11/19/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
As for medicaid and education, again is that the fault of the immigrants?




It is their fault when they use these programs and they do not pay into the system. I consider that to be theft.

Quote:

Economist said:
If we cleaned the system up and made it more efficient, wouldn't that be a better idea than spending even MORE money trying to keep illegal immigrants out?




Maybe. I'm open to any suggestions which save the country money because I am a fiscal conservative. If we determine that it is in our financial interest for illegals to stay...then so be it. I think the whole illegal immigrant issue should be decided upon economics; are they giving or taking from this country? If they are giving more than they are taking then they can stay. If they are taking more than they are giving something needs to be done.

Quote:

Economist said:
It seems like you're trying to blame a lot of America's systematic problems on immigrants, when the real problem is inefficiency on the part of American institutions.




You misunderstand me. In my opinion there are much bigger problems facing this country than illegal immgration. But, it is still a problem that is worthy of discussion.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6300798 - 11/19/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
They often send their kids to public schools.  The last time I checked it costs about $10,000-$15,000 a year to educate a child in a public school.




Yeah, it is just awful when we educate a young child. :mad:

:levitate:




It is awful when a child that does not belong in this country takes our resources when we are already deeply in debt.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300807 - 11/19/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I personally think that we should be careful with the flow of people into this country. I certainly do not think we should be overly discriminate. Ultimately, I think that the more variety of people we have in this country, the more opportunity we all have to succeed. Immigration is the heart of this country, when one really thinks about it. We should prevent individuals arriving in this country without being processed through the system, but should ensure that our system will allow anyone who has something to offer this country by being here in. We need to successfully integrate new people into our society to avoid the opportunities that other nations have with doing so. :wink:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300820 - 11/19/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
It is awful when a child that does not belong in this country takes our resources when we are already deeply in debt.




I think the main reason we are deeply in debt is our government's deficit spending, but, regardless, if one enertains the notion that this child does not belong in this country, and thus is not worth our resources to educate as a child that does belong in this country, then one must accept the fact that it is our responsibiliy that the child is in the country in the first place. We let them in, intentionally or not. We accept the burden that is not maintaining a secure border. We pay either way, and, at least this way, another human being is receiving knowledge and understanding. :smirk:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6300822 - 11/19/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

By all means, if it is in our interest to let them in then let them in. If it isn't in our interest to let them in then don't let them in. And if they come in they need to go through the proper channels.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6300845 - 11/19/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I think the main reason we are deeply in debt is our government's deficit spending




Um....yeah.  That's common sense.  :smirk:

And what has the government been spending money on that has put us in the hole so much?  The biggest expenses the U.S. federal government incurs are the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, welfare stuff, etc...), the military, education stuff, and interest payments on the debt that we already have.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
one must accept the fact that it is our responsibiliy that the child is in the country in the first place. We let them in, intentionally or not.




We must take responsibility for people who should not be here?

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
We accept the burden that is not maintaining a secure border. We pay either way, and, at least this way, another human being is receiving knowledge and understanding. :smirk:




True.  It costs money to have them here and it costs money to patrol our border to stop them.  However, it would probably just be cheaper and easier to shoot anybody that attempted to come over the border.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300875 - 11/19/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
By all means, if it is in our interest to let them in then let them in.  If it isn't in our interest to let them in then don't let them in.  And if they come in they need to go through the proper channels.




This is my stance, ultimately. I think we would need to explore what constitutes "our interest", of course. As long as the person worked and contributed something to society, then that is enough for me. They definitely need to be accounted for, as well. :grin: I couldn't imagine the government taking inventory of its people every year. :lol:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300894 - 11/19/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
And what has the government been spending money on that has put us in the hole so much?  The biggest expenses the U.S. federal government incurs are the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, welfare stuff, etc...), the military, education stuff, and interest payments on the debt that we already have.




Makes sense. Now, how much do you expect illegal immigrants to be an aspect of these expenses? Is it a signfigant factor?

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
We must take responsibility for people who should not be here?




Of course we should, as we are responsible for their being here ("here" is our responsibility). I'm not stating that the fact they are here designates that they must remain here as though they are suspossed to be here, but, in one way or another, we have to assume responsibility for them, by either preventing their presence in our country, providing services to them when they take them, or by identifying them and then removing them from this country.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
True.  It costs money to have them here and it costs money to patrol our border to stop them.  However, it would probably just be cheaper and easier to shoot anybody that attempted to come over the border.




Perhaps, yet how cheap and easy a solution is, thankfully, is not the only thing we take into consideration. :wink: You can't blame them for wanting to be here, after all. :grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6301649 - 11/20/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't this the consequence of free market economics? If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour? Surely allowing millions of immigrants into the country would drive wages through the floor and increase business profits enormously? Isn't this the kind of society free marketeers dream of?

The UK has similar problems. Interestingly we're at the stage where there are so many immigrants putting British people out of work by undercutting their wages that the number of people in work is rising while unemployment is rising too.

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