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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6286209 - 11/15/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The company we keep directs our choice in the clothes we wear, the food we eat and our voting preference. True or False?

True, in some sense. Any group you belong to influences your behavior. It doesn't always 'direct' it in an authoritarian sense - although, it can - but to believe a person can remained uninfluenced by those around him/her is naive. Some individual may react against the group conformity, but this individual is being controlled just as much as the others. Interestingly enough, it seems groups of three or four cause the most conformity and larger groups have less conformity.

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Offlineaelephant
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6286869 - 11/15/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Not necessarily true. Look at mob mentalities where all individuals in effect become one.


--------------------
As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need
Sky of blue and Sea of Green
In our Yellow Submarine

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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: aelephant]
    #6287108 - 11/15/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

They do not become one, they all decide to do the same thing. This is very different. Panicked humans may act like a herd, but we are not, in fact, herd animals.

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Offlineaelephant
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Veritas]
    #6287126 - 11/15/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

They act as one. The point is that large groups do not necessarily lead to individuals expressing uniqueness. Another example of unconscious conformity would be groupthink.


--------------------
As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need
Sky of blue and Sea of Green
In our Yellow Submarine

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: aelephant]
    #6287146 - 11/15/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The individuals who compose a panicked mob will react similarly, but not "as one." This is not an accurate example of conformity decreasing relative to group size. A mob of ANY size will behave like a mob. A larger mob will cause more damage.

What do you mean by "groupthink," exactly? Are you asserting that humans unconsciously conform their thoughts? This is not the definition with which I am familiar.

"A mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action."
~Irving Janis

This sounds completely conscious and voluntary. In what way are individual "strivings for unanimity" an example of a group acting as one?

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Offlineaelephant
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Veritas]
    #6287189 - 11/15/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

They lose their individual ability to rationalize and instead are led by a group mentality.


--------------------
As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need
Sky of blue and Sea of Green
In our Yellow Submarine

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: aelephant]
    #6287262 - 11/15/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

They don't lose anything. They willingly choose to abdicate their power to "something greater" :tongue: than themselves. Sound familiar. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/15/06 07:40 PM)

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Offlineaelephant
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Icelander]
    #6287305 - 11/15/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Or less than.

Groupthink is cited as one of the causes of Pearl Harbor.

Symptoms of groupthink psychologist Irving Janis identified include:

1. Incomplete survey of alternatives
2. Incomplete survey of objectives
3. Failure to examine risks of preferred choice
4. Failure to re-appraise initially rejected alternatives
5. Poor information search
6. Selective bias in processing information at hand
7. Failure to work out contingency plans

It's also notable to mention that groupthink can be conscious or unconscious, meaning that the individual doesn't willingly do anything.


--------------------
As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need
Sky of blue and Sea of Green
In our Yellow Submarine

Edited by aelephant (11/15/06 07:51 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: aelephant]
    #6287370 - 11/15/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

People do all those things listed every day and don't do it in a mob. That says nothing about anything IMO. I have been in mobs and when I saw something going in a direction I didn't like, I left. I did this because I wasn't that scared of what the others might think nor was I looking for a violent outlet for my frustrations, and I trusted my wits and physical skills to get me out of any jams that might be caused by my leaving the group.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineaelephant
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Icelander]
    #6287420 - 11/15/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

More power to you! It sounds as if you are an independent thinker.
I think that we are a little off track and that my point may have been lost in this discussion of semantics.

I suppose I have two points:

1. The size of the group does not determine the extent to which one is influenced.
2. The influence of others may be unconscious.


--------------------
As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need
Sky of blue and Sea of Green
In our Yellow Submarine

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: aelephant]
    #6287613 - 11/15/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Better put may be that we choose to let certain things be unconscious to ourselves. It's an easy out. It's still choosing. We all have a choice and always choose something. When one chooses to be asleep then choices we make seem unconscious.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6287631 - 11/15/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

It definitely influences us, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it directs our will.


--------------------

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6288360 - 11/16/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
It definitely influences us, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it directs our will.




I'm exploring a possibility that the future is predictable based on group ideology.

Is the Apocalypse and Armageddon a Christian obsession where group ideology flowers into mass crucification. AND: Should the flower of our youth be educated to avoid racial extinction.

In other words: Should we recognize the risks of ideologies, and nurture sustainable world views.

Edited by Booby (11/16/06 02:21 AM)

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Misery loves company. [Re: Booby]
    #6288406 - 11/16/06 02:31 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Let me go so far as to postulate that the crucification of Jesus has left an innate desire amongst the crucifiers to be crucified.

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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6288826 - 11/16/06 08:43 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
The company we keep directs our choice in the clothes we wear, the food we eat and our voting preference. True or False?
---------------------

To-day is my birthday, take the time to leave me a rating.




There are many factors that determine our decisions, not the least of which is the environment. Friends and family, plus all the people we see on a daily basis, definitely help to direct our future decisions, but they cannot necessarily control them without extreme energy expendenture on their part. Genetics is also a factor that affects our individual willpower, whether it's politically correct or not to discuss genetics' influence on the individual's personality, and therefore no environment can ever have absolute control over an organism in any one topic, except through death.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6290296 - 11/16/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said: Should we recognize the risks of ideologies, and nurture sustainable world views.




From a Christian perspective No, because the Rapture is a good thing that takes the Chosen away from this world.

Quote:

Booby said:Is the Apocalypse and Armageddon a Christian obsession where group ideology flowers into mass crucification.




again No, because all true Christians will already have been removed, leaving only the scum and who cares about them?

Quote:

Booby said:Should the flower of our youth be educated to avoid racial extinction.




You really are dense aren't you.

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OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6290888 - 11/16/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, No Flaming!

"Rapture" is a word of Latin origin, not Hebrew or Greek, the languages of the Bible. (The earliest translation of the Bible was into Latin, and the word rapture comes from there.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

So there is a dispute whether the Rapture will ever occur.

The Tribulation (or "Great Tribulation") is an event referred to in the New Testament of the Bible at Matthew 24:21 ("For then shall be great tribulation..." - King James Version) and other passages. In the futurist view of Christian eschatology, the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where believers will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it. This view was introduced to the modern church by John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, became widely accepted through the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulation

Shaky, very shaky evidence.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6291024 - 11/16/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

You can't flame yourself, duh. :rolleyes:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6291033 - 11/16/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

He's a dumbass and you know it.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Group Energy Directs Individual Willpower. [Re: Booby]
    #6291052 - 11/16/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

It does seem to be rather self-evident, yes.

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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