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Offlinebrainlessjon
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Manufacturing
    #6205136 - 10/24/06 05:59 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I work in a manufacturing plant for lawnmower engines. The plant moving to china is a ever present fear.  Trumpet Article

"In 1965, manufacturing accounted for 53 percent of the economy. By 1988 it only accounted for 39 percent, and in 2004, it accounted for just 9 percent."

I'm sure other companies have taken over the economy but isn't it sad to see all these jobs go over seas? What ever happened to "MADE IN AMERICA?" Someone once told me that 70%(the actual percentage might be higher) of goods on the shelf in Walmart are Chinese made. We are forced to buy foreign products and that in turn forces American jobs over seas.

How can CEOs and politicians set and let America's working backbone lose their jobs?  :humpme: Seems like blue collar is getting shafted!


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: brainlessjon]
    #6205140 - 10/24/06 06:10 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> What ever happened to "MADE IN AMERICA?"

Greed.

Blame the unions for raising manufacture costs so high that it is cheaper to ship the stuff halfway across the world.

Blame the owners for wanting quick profit at the expense of long term investment.

> How can CEOs and politicians set and let America's working backbone lose their jobs?

How can unions set and let America's working backbone lose their jobs by demanding obscene compensation for simple labor?


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Offlinebrainlessjon
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Seuss]
    #6205153 - 10/24/06 06:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

How can we reverse this? Seems to be the trend for IT jobs to be outsourced as well.

The Owners will not lose anything! Markets will open up in china and other developing nations bringing CEOs their profit. By moving to China they will lose nothing.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: brainlessjon]
    #6205457 - 10/24/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The only way it can be reversed it to not purchase goods created overseas. The people who bitch and moan about outsourcing also shop at Walmart much of the time.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Manufacturing [Re: Redstorm]
    #6205586 - 10/24/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

That is true. A Walmart was just built in my city this past year, and I have not stepped for in it yet. Unfortunately it seems that if you are not willing to buy products from overseas, there are some things you will have to live with out.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6205590 - 10/24/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I don't go in Wal-MArt just b/c I feel like human filth even being inside the store.


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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Seuss]
    #6205683 - 10/24/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Dont blame the unions.. These businesses left as technology advanced and manufacturing jobs became more obsolete.

Used to be that in Middle America a person could look forward to working his way up at the local manufacturing/packing plant to $15 - $16 an hour and live a comfortable life..

Not any more.. These manufacturing jobs have been reduced to $8 and $9 an hour positions and the cost of living has doubled since then.

Unions didnt do all that.. Corporate greed did that.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6205908 - 10/24/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> Dont blame the unions..

Why not?  Unions are just as guilty, if not more so, for pushing jobs overseas.  You can pretend that management is evil and wants to hurt the local employees all you like, but in the end, it is simply a matter of cost.  If union labor wasn't so expensive, then management wouldn't send union jobs overseas.

> These businesses left as technology advanced and manufacturing jobs became more obsolete.

I fail to see how advances in technology leads management to corporate greed that leads to non-skilled jobs being pushed overseas?

Don't get me wrong... I blame management and unions both... anybody that claims only one or the other is at fault is ignoring the true issue, and is likely part of the problem.

> Unions didnt do all that.. Corporate greed did that.

As I said, union greed is just as guilty as corporate greed.  Lemme guess, GabbaDj, you are in a union?  I will eat my dirty socks if you aren't.  :grin:


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Seuss]
    #6206154 - 10/24/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ultimately it was the choice of the management to send factories overseas, not the unions. While I will concede unions certainly played their part in some areas by adding to the labor costs, I will not put as much blame on them as you do. The real reason to kill the unions wasn't so much to do with cost as it was to do with control. They guys at the top didn't like the big elephant in the room that the unions became. With the unions out of the picture they are free to do whatever they want as far as labor goes: hire cheap foreign labor, cycle people through with temp services over and over so they can't meet the 1 yr required for benefits ect.

It boils down to greed not necessity. With the unions out there is no one to secure fair benefits nor job security for employees except the federal govt. And we all know what the feds want: illegal aliens working for dirt so they don't have to pay fair wages to those of us who won't and can't work for dirt.

And no, I don't belong to a union nor have I ever.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6206209 - 10/24/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:

and dont forget to place blame on those who push globalism on the world (i.e. NAFTA, GATT, etc).


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: brainlessjon]
    #6206816 - 10/24/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

People act like this shit is a bad thing. We're on our way to being the world's first white collar superpower. Do you wanna buy products at higher prices just so we can feel a little grungier?


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Gijith]
    #6207201 - 10/24/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

its called a diversified economy. white collar jobs don't produce alot of tangible things. When shit gets tough blue collar manufacturing is the saftey net because people always need clothes but what they don't always need is an accountant or an advertising executive.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineSchwip
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: brainlessjon]
    #6209630 - 10/25/06 05:50 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

dont confuse greed with basic business.

if i can get 2000 widgets made in india for the price of what the material costs alone in the usa what will i do?

the usa manufacturing market is going the way of niche markets.

it is a diversified economy for sure......with general manufacturing being a dying trade


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--------------------------------

" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "

..............

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Offlinebrainlessjon
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Gijith]
    #6209651 - 10/25/06 06:02 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

White collar?  :thumbdown: I cant stand the thought of being part of the suit and tie world.

I'm also glad I'm not on an assembly line, I work on die-cast machines.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6209707 - 10/25/06 06:34 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

>  I will not put as much blame on them as you do.

I don't know that I put more or less blame on them than any other factor.  However, I feel that they are certainly a part of the problem.  Are they a big part or a little part... that, I don't know.

> And no, I don't belong to a union nor have I ever.

I wouldn't have thought you to be in one, based upon the wording you used.  I'm not knocking people that are in unions.  I have immediately family that are union members.  It is the union itself that I have issue with.  I think there are better ways than blackmail (which is what unions do with the threat of a strike) to improve employee work conditions and compensation.  To me, a union is a parasite that leeches off of both the company and the employees represented.  It is in the unions best interest to keep management and employees from getting along.  However, this is a different topic and I don't want to derail the original thread of this post.

> and dont forget to place blame on those who push globalism on the world (i.e. NAFTA, GATT, etc).

Although I was forced to take an economics class (macro), I don't really understand this sort of thing very well.  How does tariff free trade cost jobs?  I see the immediate impact, as the artificially maintained supply/demand curve is replaced with one that is maintained by real market forces... but in the long term, once things have settled, I don't see how these agreements hurt.  Again, my ignorance will shine on this subject, so please be patient with me.  :smile:


--------------------
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Offlinebrainlessjon
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Seuss]
    #6209721 - 10/25/06 06:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Hey what is keeping white collar jobs in America? IT jobs went overseas! With the cheap bodies for hire in China, India, and other developing nations I would think no job besides CEO and board-members are safe.

Wouldn't we need tariffs to keep the price of foreign goods higher than domestic? Please do explain NAFTA & GATT!


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: brainlessjon]
    #6211900 - 10/25/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I live in the USA, make about $65K per year and I can't quit or be fired unless I didn't show up to work anymore. I offered to quit a couple times when arguing with the boss and he always says no. I take plenty of breaks, read on company time, take long lunch breaks and leave early everyday and I still make a lot of money. The boss above my boss is impressed that our group brings in over $100K per month. I have a 3 bedroom house with no mortgage (all payed off) and I'm under 50 years old. I have almost half a million dollars invested in stocks, stock funds, bond funds and various trusts. Outside of retirement, I made about $20K in dividends in 2005, enough for me to live on without working, and I will be making even more this year. I don't count the dividends in my IRAs since most are automatically reinvested. The reason I don't quit my job now is because of my fear of inflation getting ahead of my investments and that I'm too nice a guy to abandon our clients who need me to help them advance science (and their business of getting patents) and provide corporate profits so their share holders can make money. Also, I'm greedy and want to earn more money for myself and I keep it all. That's right! I don't give even a penny to the bums on the street. Its my moral obligation to help them deal with their bad karma.


Edited by Luddite (10/25/06 07:50 PM)


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: brainlessjon]
    #6212812 - 10/26/06 12:51 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Labor costs aren't the only factor driving manufacturing overseas, you also have to take into account waste/material disposal and environmental laws which require certain processing of wastes. also proposed by some although not necessarily shared by myself is the idea that by creating these factories and jobs in foreign lands, new markets will open up as a result of the economic growth of the areas and thus increase the overall demand. just a point of thought. it should be of note however that individuals in our government do attempt to attract companies into building plants in the US through tax breaks and developmental funding. Its just not as commonly advertised as the closing of factories, although the ratio of added plants to lost plants is probably low which may also be a factor in this. Since its a global economy we live in, the only way to stay competitive is to outsource and redifine ones skills to a more advanced area where jobs are just being created and defined.


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OfflineDAVID_ALLAN_CEO
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Seuss]
    #6228450 - 10/30/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> What ever happened to "MADE IN AMERICA?"

Greed.





my father s in manufacturing, i did a college journalism article on the decline of manufacturing in america, and i asked a professor if he thought the day when virtually nothing will be 'made in america' is coming, he said its just on the horizon... everyone else can do it cheaper, american s want the american life for their work, and that costs money, moving shit to developing countries makes sense, the level of education that is now present in most countries makes it easy to move operations away because everyone else wants to do it cheaper


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Gijith]
    #6228520 - 10/30/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
People act like this shit is a bad thing. We're on our way to being the world's first white collar superpower. Do you wanna buy products at higher prices just so we can feel a little grungier?



You act like the whole population is becoming white collar. It's more a matter of the gap between rich and poor widening, with a shrinking middle class.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Manufacturing [Re: Silversoul]
    #6228801 - 10/30/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

My post was a bad oversimplification on my part. I don't know if it could ever be 100% or even 60% white collar. Not America. But it could grow, which I think is a great thing.

It seems to me that during a shifting economy, it would be easier for a rich person to maintain their economic status. A lot of other people get shook loose. So I think you're spot on, yeah. That said, I can't think of any reason why this trend would have to continue. I'm sure it will even out once there is adjustment within America. And I feel like we'll be better for it.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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